initiating the turn and rolling the skis onto their edges with their heels and both are simply bobbing up and down to facilitate the edge transition
not sure i agree with that, pressure is being controlled fairly well by both with little spray off the skis and break away. edging is happening early in the turn and i am not sure i see rolling onto the edges with the heels, not sure it is even that easy to roll onto an edge with your heel? i would agree that neither are perfectly centered over the skis and are in the aft 2/3 and that they could both benefit from less cross over and more cross through in the size of turns and the speed that they are at.. Skier 3 is almost all cross under and getting into all sorts of trouble..
sorry but completely disagree with your comments on equipment.. ill fit boots and poor setup can create terrible problems that even the most skilled will struggle with...
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
skier 3 needs more help than just his boots
put a racer on a boot too stiff and they will use the body to compensate and flex by dropping the hip....... give them a boot too soft and they will over flex it and open up a whole heap more issues
not sure the terrain makes any difference to boot selection, racers have to ski on flat areas as well as steep ones at different points in any race course
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
skimottaret, not that you probably want my input
Only really looked at skier 3, seems to have weight too far back, as FlyingS suggests not enough ankle flex, lacks dynamic adjustment, not a very pretty skier to my jaundiced eye.
But I know nothing other than I'm not mad, just outvoted
How do you go about making changes to skier 3's transitions (or anything else you dont like?)
No many suggestions coming forward.
With the caveat that I'd want to see a little more of the skier and that I'm not a race coach, I'd look at doing some work out of gates, focusing on long radius (to give the skier time to feel what's going on, slower movement pattern, allows the skier to be more 'square' on the ski's), working on getting their COM well inside the arc and staying centred.
Bearing in mind that the skier is already displays a high level of skill, the real task is as much to overcome a long engrained habitual movement pattern as anything else.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
david@mediacopy, I'd add...
Get them into some bumps. Don't need to be big ones, just enough so that more dynamic balance is required, Exercises to work on fore aft flex. Exercises to increase fluidity. If the person in question skis mostly on plastic, I'd wager that's part of the problem.
I think the technique the skier is using has been advocated by some high level plastic racers...and probably is effective on plastic. A lot of angulation coming from the knees, skis not too far away from the body to stop them skidding sideways on plastic. You can't see it in the photo, but I think the hips are probably also quite far back. What I'd like to see is the hips coming up and forward, and much further to the right in the picture, straightening out that angulation at the knee a lot. How to achieve it? Not so sure, but I think skiing the whole mountain would make the skier more versatile. I'd take a guess he's much more skilfull on piste than in bumps and variables. Get him to accept that skidding does not always equal evil and generally have more in his tool kit than rolling from edge to edge in a turn shape that suits his ski's radius. Most of the kids that I was working with on plastic seem to have been brainwashed into thinking that any skid in a turn must be "wrong". I would not like to be with them the first time they come across a steep and icy black on a family ski holiday!
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Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
beanie1,
After all it is free
After all it is free
david@mediacopy wrote:
skimottaret,
Quote:
How do you go about making changes to skier 3's transitions (or anything else you dont like?)
No many suggestions coming forward.
With the caveat that I'd want to see a little more of the skier and that I'm not a race coach, I'd look at doing some work out of gates, focusing on long radius (to give the skier time to feel what's going on, slower movement pattern, allows the skier to be more 'square' on the ski's), working on getting their COM well inside the arc and staying centred.
I'd agree with some of that prescription - it worked for me when I had/have exactly the same issues . Primarily lots of skiing wider turns at Hemel and nothing on dry. Lots of outside-boot-touch-, and sword-drills to work on leg straightening and body angulation. Schlopy-drill to get hips further forward. Run fast "glalom" courses so he gets to feel the forces at work in higher speed/higher offset turns. Do not allow him anywhere near a verticale/hairpin for at least 5 training sessions.
The knee angulation stuff is relevant when you're making tight turns at slow speed - whether it be snow or plastic. As david@mediacopy said, at slow speed there's not enough support to allow the COM to get inside the turn too much, so you have to get the angulation from lower down. The problem comes when you try doing the same thing at higher speeds such that the transverse forces build up and start knackering the knees. It does become prevalent in plastic skiers, and that's predominantly the condition of what's being skied - make wider more open courses and the style will change.
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GrahamN, flip of the argument though is that familiarity with plastic gives you a immediate jumpstart into a good tool set on hardpack/ice, non?
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under a new name, Not really, race skis grip fine on ice, there is no need to avoid getting big edge angles.
Typical SSE indoor courses are set so tight that there is no reason for racers coming from plastic to change how they ski.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
pretty much agree with above and i would also focus on getting rid of the body twist and more inclination and a stronger stacked posture. a few mentioned bigger radius turns and whaddya know
his style may not look classically pretty but would he be fast in an artificial race?[/url]
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
skimottaret wrote:
would he be fast in an artificial race?
He was at CFe a couple of weekends ago wasn't he ?
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
rjs, sorry, I didn't explain too well. And maybe I'm being a little old skool. I found that spending quite a bit of time on plastic in my youth helped me immensely on skinny skis when unexpectedly going from soft snow onto ice - and being able to spoof it so that no-one could tell anything had changed.
Call me old fashioned if you like.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
or, actually, indeed, if you LOSE grip, I'd think it would help in recovery.??
Last edited by You know it makes sense. on Fri 7-05-10 19:13; edited 1 time in total
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
rjs, not sure but dont really want to get into naming names just am wondering if people recon this style developed is a direct function of trying to win artificial races...
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
skimottaret, I'm not suggesting that you name him, just that you could look at the results for your own information.
I do think that technique has developed because it works well on plastic. The problem is that they are not being penalized for it in indoor races, they get a good enough start number based on their plastic results for courses to be still in good enough condition to allow them to get away with skiing like that. Very few people made their points at CFe but the seed lists won't reflect this.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
rjs, Skier 3 wasnt at Chill as far as can see. He is a good skier no doubt but I am more interested to hear what everyone thinks from an MA perspective
your comments on plastic are very true and i did say eariier if he put that into a rutted course he would be in for a world of hurt
what do you think of his bigger radius turns? same underlying problems or are the less prevalent in GS?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
skimottaret wrote:
rjs, Skier 3 wasnt at Chill as far as can see.
OK, I thought I recognized the equipment, must have been somebody else.
Quote:
what do you think of his bigger radius turns?
They look more "BASI" than "race" turns to me, I would like to see more separation, weight still looks to be back too.
what do you think of his bigger radius turns? same underlying problems or are the less prevalent in GS?
Initiation not nearly so upper body initiated, but the basic problems not much different: no forward projection at transitions; right leg not extending towards turn apex; right hand dropping dragging down right shoulder. Actually the transitions hardly have any impetus in them at all, and I'm not convinced that there's much pressure getting onto the ski before the fall-line. The rear balancing is even more pronounced - particularly as he passes the camera - and is shown particularly as he gets that small jump. The falling onto the inside ski is actually more pronounced - very clear in that air episode, although he corrects pretty quickly after the landing, Also what hip angulation there is is achieved by throwing in the inside hip and overdoing the counter - which goes with the lack of outside hip forward projection.
The embarassing thing is that large parts of that paragraph are almost exactly what philbo was telling me on my last training week with him . At least I managed to correct a large part of it once I got into the course last Monday
Would he be fast in a course? Yes-ish, probably, provided the course fitted his rhythm, but he wouldn't really generate pace through any turn, and could well lose it badly if the turns didn't suit him, so I'd expect quite variable results. Probably better in slalom than GS.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Quote:
"BASI" than "race" turns to me
he isnt AFAIK a basiod. curious as to what bits of those turns looks like an instructor demoing..
Quote:
hip angulation there is is achieved by throwing in the inside hip and overdoing the counter
he gets a lot of angulation but as you say the hips really gets open to achieve this.. skier 2 does the same in his medium radius and
GrahamN, i seem to remember giving you feedback on j turns when you were doing the same thing...
how do we get rid of this dropping the inside hip and opening of the outside hip when trying to angulate?
Quote:
Probably better in slalom than GS.
agreed and probably only on a 14 gate course without ruts
how do we get rid of this dropping the inside hip and opening of the outside hip when trying to angulate?
Driving inside hip forward at turn initiation worked for me... gets me forward and countered which helps angulation... my natural tendency is to create counter by dropping outside hip back and to angulate by dropping inside hip down...
Originally my instructor had me "try to sit on his knee" - he was 6'3" and standing uphill and slightly forward- made me drive hip up and forward instead of dropping it backwards. I'd be careful with that one though - this was a very regular instructor (nearly 70 private lessons in one season) and even then I gave him a 'weird' look - he had to say "just try it please". I don't think many instructors could get away with that without explanation. It is the right movement though- just like getting on high stool! I've since suggested a few friends try lifting that hip and it does work for some.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
With regard to the plastic \ snow question and skier 3, I'd suggest the issues highlighted are more to do with racing on plastic than general skiing on plastic, due to the relatively direct nature of the courses.
I'd hate for the perception to build that plastic doesn't have it's place.
After all it is free
After all it is free
little tiger, i have heard you and fastman recommend this and i think it is a good idea to help people get forward and crossing through i am not convinced it is a good drill for people who have an open outside hip and whose inside hip is low and rotated. kinda sounds like it would just make that problem worse or am i missing something?
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skimottaret - second paragraph relates to OUTSIDE HIP (uphill in traverse a)... eg I had some time working on each direction... You do need an awareness of how much rotation you have going on in hips torso etc and developing that is always useful. At various time I've skied with poles behind knees(hands held between legs), poles around hips, poles as frames,poles held up in front, dragging poles, etc. etc. Now I do have some sense of the amount of counter I have and prefer in longer turns. Still not great on anticipation etc.
Sorry - better to ask Fastman for this.
I struggle with the descriptions like "open hips" (Never been told to open hip or close hip - so it means nothing to me as not in my lingo). Ditto I'm a bit confused with inside hip "rotated" - do you mean rotated as in opposite of countered? Like on this page? http://www.yourskicoach.com/YourSkiCoach/R.html(that is how I understand rotated) In that case I'd assume being countered at start of turn would help. So I guess you mean something different?
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skimottaret, been studying the two video clip and then look at my video clips and now decided I’m a crap skier
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
Glen Charman, Pop some video of yourself up and you'll get some free O&A from the resident Instructors
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Glen Charman, skier 1 and 2 probably have several times as many days on snow as you do plus a lot more performance training, give it time and get some more lessons
little tiger, it is hard to describe hips but perhaps "lagging" outside hip is better than "weak" or "open". your probably right in the open and closed doesnt seem that intuitive.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
skimottaret wrote:
little tiger, i have heard you and fastman recommend this and i think it is a good idea to help people get forward and crossing through i am not convinced it is a good drill for people who have an open outside hip and whose inside hip is low and rotated. kinda sounds like it would just make that problem worse or am i missing something?
skimottaret, if by "open outside hip" you mean "lagging", as you explained to Little Tiger, then driving the new inside (downhill) hip forward through the transition is an extremely useful focus. When doing that the head of the old inside (uphill) femur serves as a pivot point, and the pelvis rotates about that point. The result is the quick establishment of a very powerful fore balance state early in the turn, and a very functional state of early counter. A lagging outside hip is generally the byproduct of people creating counter by using the new inside (downhill) femur ball as the pivot point. When doing that the new outside hip falls back, and the skier ends up aft and often inside.
Here's an Email I received yesterday from a student who was having issues with his outside hip falling behind him. I explained the inside hip drive to him, and he was thrilled with the result. (note; he refers to the move as femur pivots)
Quote:
Rick,
I spent the weekend at Mammoth playing with femur pivots – they are amazing. Concentrating on pivoting around the hip joint forces me to get all my weight on the new outside ski early and I automatically roll onto the inside edge. I hope to get up in a couple of weeks and practice some more with it in combination with more of the angulation and transition drills.
What he says about practicing angulation as an independent skill is important. Even with the proper fore balance and counter creation this move produces, the desired state of lateral balance is more likely, but not guaranteed. Proper angulation skills need to be employed hand in hand. Other drills need to be focused on to refine that aspect of technique.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
FastMan, i am now following your thoughts on this but i guess my concern with this move is that students (and myself !) would when told "to drive the new inside hip forward" may end up "throwing" the new inside hip down the hill, unweighting the uphill leg and twist causing the outside hip to lag and fall back exasperating the problem, i tend to try to get em to actively stand on the uphill ski and rotate the pelvis as you say, indoors we do a lot of very slow turns to emphasis that move and progress to stork turns and javelins.
i agree with what you are explaining, i guess im just not too sure how best to enact it correctly when teaching. hips are so, so important and with the people we work with is usually one of the main culprits in holding em back...
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
The issue you fear is avoided by how the instructor presents the directive. The inside hip drive is a pure forward move. The lateral component of the transition comes from Inside Leg Extension (ILE). ILE creates the state of imbalance which serves to move the Center of Mass across the skis. The skier need do nothing more than push slightly down on their old inside (uphill) foot to make it happen. The existing turn forces will then do all the work of moving the skier across their skis and into the new turn for them. They simply drive their downhill (new inside) hip forward, and angulate, as the ILE driven cross over process takes place.
Start them with ILE. Let them feel how it works. Begin with half turns, then long radius full turns, all on gentle terrain. Now add some simple angulation drills with their ILE. Then throw in the inside hip drive. When they have the whole package, start increasing edge angles, ensuring their angulation remains solid, that will keep them outside ski balanced.
It's really pretty simple, and they pick it up fast, as long as it's not introduced too early in the learning process. Solid basic balance and edging skills are the prerequisite.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
FastMan, off line for a while but i think we introduce this fairly the same way, i tend to say to stand on the uphill ski, you "push slightly down on the old inside foot".. indoors we have to do this quite slowly to show the effect of the move as we dont have the gentle terrain needed to do the bigger radius turns..
some good kids ... The task was to make medium radius turns on the outside ski only, this footage was shot about two years ago and i will try to grab some tape of them doing the same task soon.
compare Mini 1 (first two runs on the video) Mini 2 at 3:00 and mini 3 at 3:35
mini 1 and 2 have trained for some time and are now top handful in the country, mini 3 has had some surprisingly good results for someone who didnt train that often, can you talent spot what mini 3 had in his skiing that the coaches really liked? anything in mini 1 and 2 you would work on?
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
skimottaret, "stand on the uphill ski" would have connotations of weight shift to me - ie I would move my hips etc uphill to balance on that ski... It also suggests going the whole way to me - versus creating the slight imbalance and allowing the rest to happen(easier when learning then you can learn to adjust)
The pushing slightly down does not have that idea to me - it matches with the idea of allowing yourself to become out of balance...
I was taught the movement by a canadian race coach - he told me to play with pressing down a little but NOT to allow myself to move body uphill with it... very similar to Fastman's description.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
little tiger, fair point i will have to think about that but makes sense
Warning: this is not a technical video, ie the skier was not working on anything in particular, just having fun. If it doesn't work for movement analysis, no problem. But I guess things can be spotted even when freeskiing...
skimottaret, mini3 seems to have a natural balance and ability to step early and comfortably onto outside ski. Notably not leaing on inside pole as a crutch when ski taken away. All this is in the context of a not very "coached" look.
horizon, pretty hard to see the feet and ski's is all that pow on the 'tree' run
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
horizon, Impossible to analyse through a green-eyed mist.
After all it is free
After all it is free
horizon, looks like the skier is really enjoying themselves and no matter what the technique (and this doesn't look too bad at all) isn't that the main reason we ski???
Being really picky maybe the poleplant arm drops back a little after the plant but that really is nitpicking!
skimottaret, mini3's look like he has fairly flowing turns of roughly equal radius on each side which I would think would be a really good thing to have in this type of one legged exercise.
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Hmm, a little nuskool for my liking...
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fatbob, your right mini 3 is tall for his age but has excellent balance and within months of this video was arcing turns very very cleanly Touchguru, correct as well, very good turn shape and early ski engagement.
horizon, you didnt show a close up of your grin which i am guessing was pretty huge, very nice skiing but a bit hard to offer up any constructive critique due to snow and lack of zoom in...
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
. Primarily lots of skiing wider turns at Hemel and nothing on dry. Lots of outside-boot-touch-, and sword-drills to work on leg straightening and body angulation. Schlopy-drill to get hips further forward. Run fast "glalom" courses so he gets to feel the forces at work in higher speed/higher offset turns. Do not allow him anywhere near a verticale/hairpin for at least 5 training sessions.
. At least I managed to correct a large part of it once I got into the course last Monday
