 Poster: A snowHead
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| DaveC wrote: |
| rob@rar wrote: |
Thanks, he said drifting along quite happily. So would it be fair to say that they give you more tactical choices (ie what you can do in the terrain and snow that you're in) rather than requiring you to ski differently? I'd like to give rockered skis a try one day. |
I think they give you more technical choices too, since you're suddenly biomechanically allowed to ski differently. |
Yes, I guess that's right, but I'm assuming it's changes of emphasis within the usual range of technique rather than something completely different.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I hate snowploughing..... It hurts.. and my wife is better @ it than me....
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| DaveC wrote: |
| rob@rar wrote: |
Thanks, he said drifting along quite happily. So would it be fair to say that they give you more tactical choices (ie what you can do in the terrain and snow that you're in) rather than requiring you to ski differently? I'd like to give rockered skis a try one day. |
I think they give you more technical choices too, since you're suddenly biomechanically allowed to ski differently. |
Sorry rob for dropping the bombshell in then running away. I agree with DaveC more technical as well as tactical choices - one of the things I've been able to experiment with a bit is the "skurf" - a sort of skid/surf. I think of it as a kind of instant pivot although you might argue that the pivot is something different. Certainly you can be letting them run then throw them sideways and enjoy the ride or use the easy pivot as a get out of jail free card in tight trees or chutes (like a snowboard). Rocker seems to me a brilliant innovation for avoiding hooked tips making me think that it won't be long before we see rocker bump skis & rocker in more mass market skis (not just as a marketing gimmick).
The downsides - more flap on hardpack/hard crud, much shorter effective edge etc may mean that people need helping through the transition to their new toys if they are going to make the most of them. I think due to average snow conditions an effective Euro rocker ski probably ends up being different from a Japanese/Western N America rocker ski.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| I'm a bit confused. Your friend who lost control of her snowplough and sat backwards was a beginner or was in her third week of skiing and was happy to cruise blues? |
Well, both.
Not everyone picks up skiing as quickly as probably everyone on this forum did. It was her third week or skiing, but she still wasn't skiing parallel, hence was just doing blues, and was still a beginner. Yes, TBH she wasn't very good, but I think in real life, a lot of people are actually like this, you just don't find those people in this forum!
I guess this is my other issue with concentrating on snowploughs for novices. If it's the first thing someone learns, it's very hard for some people to then 'unlearn' it and progress to parallel skiing.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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3rd week skiing and she has had lessons for those 3 weeks? Because if thats the case, then Im suprised at that.... Who was teaching her?
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| fatbob wrote: |
| I think due to average snow conditions an effective Euro rocker ski probably ends up being different from a Japanese/Western N America rocker ski. |
I've been looking at rockered skis and would quite like to try and maybe buy a pair, but they only seem to be 110mm+ which is overkill for the skiing I do. Be nice to try some slimmer models with a rocker to see how they differ from regular skis.
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| bum wrote: |
| I guess this is my other issue with concentrating on snowploughs for novices. If it's the first thing someone learns, it's very hard for some people to then 'unlearn' it and progress to parallel skiing. |
You don't need to unlearn it, which is why it is part of the standard progression used by ski instructors he world over. A snowplough is not very different from a parallel turn. Many people progress to parallel from a plough just as a result of increasing their speed and balance, requiring very little intervention from the instructor.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| fatbob wrote: |
| I think due to average snow conditions an effective Euro rocker ski probably ends up being different from a Japanese/Western N America rocker ski. |
I've been looking at rockered skis and would quite like to try and maybe buy a pair, but they only seem to be 110mm+ which is overkill for the skiing I do. Be nice to try some slimmer models with a rocker to see how they differ from regular skis. |
I think there would be a case as an all mountain/multi condition ski for a 100mmish rocker ski with flat camber/conventional sidecut underfoot - kind of like a scaled down Redeemer if kiwi1 is listening. You could proably then rund them 10cm more than your regular ski Perhaps the new K2 range will be hitting this mark.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| bum wrote: |
| They were both beginners in their first week, learning the snow plough and managed to pick up speed on a slightly steeper blue. . |
From your very first post. Beginners in their first week. Why are you changing the story now?
And since I *am* going at this like a dog with a bone - what's this about "unlearning"? Are you too a beginner?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Markoncarp wrote: |
| 3rd week skiing and she has had lessons for those 3 weeks? Because if thats the case, then Im suprised at that.... Who was teaching her? |
Yup, had proper lessons each time she went skiing. I don't know who the instructors were but I think they were ESF for the first two trips, and then a swiss instructor when we were in Nendaz.
I don't think you should be that surprised - I've known people far worse - couldn't even get down a beginner slope after a week. Although generally those people do give up skiing, whereas my friend has persevered.
I think we've got to remember that not everyone is cut out for skiing.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Alexandra wrote: |
From your very first post. Beginners in their first week. Why are you changing the story now?
And since I *am* going at this like a dog with a bone - what's this about "unlearning"? Are you too a beginner? |
Sorry I know my posts are conflicting. My friend who injured herself last year was in her first week. The friend this week is in her third week.
Does it really matter which week they were? Basically. both were at a similar level - ie just able to cruise around the blues at the time, and still snow ploughing a lot of things. Hope that makes it clearer.
Am *I* a beginner? That depends on how you define a beginner? Perhaps I am a beginner that enjoys the black moguls and the off piste.
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One quick observation someone stated you can't do a hockey stop at slow speed, incorrect you can do a hockey stop regardless of how slow you are going.
The snow plough should be taught as a useful skill, it starts to teach people how their skis react to pressure and edge angle. A significant number of "adult" beginner falls are not due to snow ploughs or technique but fear and panic. The fear of a beginner on a blue is no differant to the fear of a compotent skier in a 45 degree plus couloir on crusty snow. The only differance is the second skier has the experience and skills to better manage the situation and onvercome/control the fear.
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You know it makes sense.
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As I remember it, as your confidence and therefore speed increases. the snowplough turn sort of naturally progresses into a stepped parallel, which with more experience becomes a proper parallel turn. So, yes the snowplough turn is still valid. Might it also be safer in that it keeps beginners off the steeper slopes until they have the skills/confidence to ski them (and the skills to fall back on should they get out of there depth)?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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But if she was a slow learner, why wasn't she on a green piste? Without an instructor there it's easy to lose confidence.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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No green pistes in Italy or Austria either.
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Alexandra, megamum is correct. In Switzerland there are no green pistes.
But that aside, I think all of us at some stage have tried to push ourselves that little further, trying a slope that might be just slightly outside our comfort zone, or doing that jump that is a bit higher than the last. That's how we generally progress and get an adrenaline rush, isn't it?
It's not like my friend went from a blue piste straight onto the itinery run - that would have been stupid. She just went from one blue onto another unfamiliar blue. If we just skied the same safe runs day in day out at the same speed, skiing would be a bit boring. Don't you agree?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Alexandra wrote: |
| And since I *am* going at this like a dog with a bone - what's this about "unlearning"? |
Back onto this point about 'unlearning' the snow plough.
I found this with some of my other friends, who could parallel ski most of the pisted reds and blacks. When I took them onto an itinery run (black mogul run) they started to panic and started snow plough turning. Which of course is a problem on a mogul run! As much as I tried to get them to put their skis together, and plant their pole, everytime they panicked, they started to snow plough!
I guess others here will have also seen the same thing, and that phenomenon is not isolated to the people I ski with. That's why I don't like the snow plough being one's default 'safety' mode, and what I mean by being hard to unlearn.
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If you're friends were not confident on ALL pisted blacks, it was definetly to early to take them onto a mogulled black/itinary, which is an entirely different beast altogether. If one is not confident pole planting on pisted runs, its definetly not suddenly going to work on a mogul run.
It may be rather hard to accept... but you did take your friends onto a run they were clearly not ready for. It was way too far out of the comfort zone of your friends...
Similarly, someone in the first week should seek advise which runs are and which runs are not suitable to ski outside the lessons. The ski instructor ought to be willing to tell the client (I do!). Just the blue markers are simply not going to cut it, considering how rubbish and inconsistent resorts are at rating pistes.
One does not unlearn snowplow, nor do we need to. One learns and builds confidence to use the right technique at the right moment... that even counts for me (Entry level instructor)...
May i nominate this thread as the next inner tip lead thread?
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Tue 23-03-10 15:17; edited 1 time in total
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I certainly find it harder to do hockey stops from a slow speed - it feels like it requires better control of edge release to get the skis horizontal. I did notice that this year I am better at pivoting on my skis - I can get down a piste with an edge without being forced to turn towards the scary side at any point - switching between parallel down the slope to get moving and parallel across the slope (facing towards the safe "hill side") to slow down and various angles between. Before, when I attempted that, I inevitably ended up jamming my tips into the snow on my "safe" side as I got too close.
When in the slushy heavy stuff at the end of last week, snowplough stops felt safer than parallel stops, but I had deliberately killed a lot of speed (as parallel as I ever am) before aiming to actually stop...
I also have a history of medial knee problems (ligament, cartilage and nerve) so snowplough isn't my favourite skill, but if I am still glad to have that option when it's necessary!
ETS that I think that despite being happy on everything I've come across that doesn't have an "edge" my OH has been pretty selective about blacks - we don't go down them unless he's been down it first, or we can check it out from the lift. I had a bit of an introduction to "moguls" after a nightmare the previous year - soft bumps are not too bad as I was trying to ski them like moguls, but if it all starts going wrong, you can just aim straight at one and come to a nice easy stop! The lack of pressure really helped!
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| Ronald wrote: |
If you're friends were not confident on ALL pisted blacks, it was definetly to early to take them onto a mogulled black/itinary, which is an entirely different beast altogether. If one is not confident pole planting on pisted runs, its definetly not suddenly going to work on a mogul run.
It may be rather hard to accept... but you did take your friends onto a run they were clearly not ready for. It was way too far out of the comfort zone of your friends... |
No, I completely accept what you're saying. But they're not my children, they're my friends and they wanted to do it! Is it really too big a jump from a pisted black onto a mogul black? And I guess you'll never know until you actually try it.
Besides, no other run coming back from Verbier side of the mountain to the Nendaz side.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| bum wrote: |
I found this with some of my other friends, who could parallel ski most of the pisted reds and blacks. When I took them onto an itinery run (black mogul run) they started to panic and started snow plough turning. Which of course is a problem on a mogul run! As much as I tried to get them to put their skis together, and plant their pole, everytime they panicked, they started to snow plough!
I guess others here will have also seen the same thing, and that phenomenon is not isolated to the people I ski with. That's why I don't like the snow plough being one's default 'safety' mode, and what I mean by being hard to unlearn. |
There's a perfectly good reason why your friends were right to ignore you! The snowplough is an extremely stable manoeuvre for low speed turns, including on the most demanding terrain. I will use a snowplough in that situation if I need to, or a variation of a step turn which is in effect the same thing. Guides and pisteurs will use it when they need to, as so should anybody who wants to have a slow, stable turn if they feel they are on terrain which is very challenging.
You seem to be blaming the snowplough as the cause of your friend's injury. It wasn't. She fell (accidents happen) and stupidly sat back rather than falling sideways. Unfortunate and she has my sympathies, but trying to find an alternative way of learning to ski is kind of missing the point.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| She fell (accidents happen) and stupidly sat back rather than falling sideways. |
In my experience of teaching hundreds of beginners, you can't realistically give people options of how to fall. Yes, you can encourage safer methods, but falling is not a decision-making time. The skier is - by definition - out of control, and to expect some element of control to enter the equation (within the space of a couple of seconds) is unrealistic.
The snowplough position does, for many people, spell 'contortion'. Yes, people will sit back when doing it. It's not "stupid" - it's instinctive, defensive, understandable!
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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bum I'm confused now as to whether your friend's injury is my fault or Switzerland's? 
You can all dress it up any way you like, make excuses for her lack of instruction, blame an unfamiliar piste, heck, blame me - I don't care - but when it comes down to it she was out of her depth - and you should take some of that blame "maestro"!
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| George W. Bash wrote: |
| In my experience of teaching hundreds of beginners, you can't realistically give people options of how to fall. |
You can tell them what the best option is (fall sideways on to a hip rather than sitting backwards onto/between the ski's tails). But accidents happen, and that doesn't mean that the technique taught by just about everybody is fundamentally flawed which is what the OP is arguing.
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You know it makes sense.
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rob@rar, I think you've slightly misunderstood the purpose to this thread, and probably been biased by my slightly tongue-in-cheek and trashy title.
I would not say that snow ploughing is fundamentally flawed. I learnt how to ski by initially snow ploughing too, so I too am evidence that it can and does work.
What I am saying is that injuries to beginners caused by snow ploughing accidents are common - not just limited to my two friends - the statistics speak for themselves. Perhaps there is another way to learn which does not involve snow ploughing intiially, and hence reduce to risk of these injuries to beginners? Of course you can get injuries that aren't snow plough related, but looking at the way the snow plough works and how beginners pick up speed, panic, and then fall backwards in that position really worries me.
You seem very resistant to any hint of change, whereas I think at least a discussion of change is healthy.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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bum, Really? I don't think "snowploughing" accidents are that "common". Confirmation and observation biases, however, are endemic.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| bum wrote: |
Perhaps there is another way to learn which does not involve snow ploughing intiially, and hence reduce to risk of these injuries to beginners? Of course you can get injuries that aren't snow plough related, but looking at the way the snow plough works and how beginners pick up speed, panic, and then fall backwards in that position really worries me.
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If the person new to skiing is taught that as long as you keep turning your feet / skis back uphill in the turn you will decelerate and stop - regardless whether it's in a snow plough or parallel - they will accept the accelaration that comes with committing to the fall line and use that extra momentum to reach the stop point quicker. They will also look at turning as the method to manage momentum, not braking in a snow plough or a hockey stop.
Having this idea presented to me and practicing it myself was a sea change (sp?) in how I taught comfort on snow.
If the student accepts this philosophy, the transition to parallel is rapid.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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under a new name, true my observations are not hard evidence, and I have no real statistics to back it up, but I could go to any beginner slope with my camera and video numerous people falling backwards in the snowplough position. I wonder if fellow snowheads share that obsevation.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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bum, Rob has a little more experience in instructing then I have and especially then you have.
Like I stated before, my (Austrian) instructor literature DOES talk about sped up (skip wedge christie+edging-traversing) and DTP...
The DTP requires 3 skilengths... (60-100, 90-130, normal) skis. Which is more expensive for rental shops, so more expnsive for the guests, and the time won by this method is only a few days in the ideal (described) case.
DTP method also requires us to teach snowplow, wedge christie and edging-traversing AFTER getting onto the normal skis and parallel turns.
So we have a more expensive method, in which we need to teach guests a "lower forms" of skiing to allow them to be save on piste in difficult places... Its hard enough to convince guests to take the time for edging-traversing excersizes...
I see very little benefit in DTP, like Rob, because the classic method simply allows for a more in control, more progressive way of teaching the guests, and we need to teach our guests every single thing eventually, just in a less logical order!
Once guests have had "enough" control in plow, i don't have too much trouble having them progress to basic parallel, with the help of wedge christie form.... The traversing excisersizes are a great help in that... *
Its not like I oppose discussion about DTP, its i find it less useful, and its problematic in less coordinated/fit/strong/couragous people.
* everything beyond wedge christie is strictly speaking above my level of instructor certification
Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Tue 23-03-10 17:24; edited 1 time in total
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Mike Pow, seeing you write something like that makes me think whether beginner skiers should have some theory lessons even before they put a ski on the snow. Much like theory lessons associated with driving lessons nowadays.
Maybe that would reduce the risk of beginner accidents too, but would it be too offputting to people on holiday?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| bum wrote: |
rob@rar, I think you've slightly misunderstood the purpose to this thread, and probably been biased by my slightly tongue-in-cheek and trashy title.
I would not say that snow ploughing is fundamentally flawed. I learnt how to ski by initially snow ploughing too, so I too am evidence that it can and does work.
What I am saying is that injuries to beginners caused by snow ploughing accidents are common - not just limited to my two friends - the statistics speak for themselves. Perhaps there is another way to learn which does not involve snow ploughing intiially, and hence reduce to risk of these injuries to beginners? Of course you can get injuries that aren't snow plough related, but looking at the way the snow plough works and how beginners pick up speed, panic, and then fall backwards in that position really worries me.
You seem very resistant to any hint of change, whereas I think at least a discussion of change is healthy. |
I'm not resistant to change and have spent many hours discussing and considering how skiing works and how best to teach it. I am simply waiting to be persuaded by you that the broad progression of ski technique that is taught by instructors around the world can be improved upon. So far your contribution has been to suggest that a direct to parallel approach by teaching hockey stops is a better method, a point which I and others have addressed.
What makes you think that injuries from a slow, twisty fall from a badly performed hockey stop (which is much more difficult to perform than a snowplough) would be any fewer than from a failed snowplough?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| What makes you think that injuries from a slow, twisty fall from a badly performed hockey stop (which is much more difficult to perform than a snowplough) would be any fewer than from a failed snowplough? |
I think that merely from my understanding of anatomy as a doctor, and the observations from the injuries suffered from my friends, from myself when I started off skiing (but was fortunate never to be stretchered off the piste), and the numerous patients I see with skiing injuries.
I accept that my observations are not hard evidence. But they do point to more knee injuries from a failed snow plough than from a badly performed hockey stop. Although I wouldn't be surprised if a badly performed hockey stop led to more wrist and shoulder injuries than a failed snow plough. But overall my gut feeling is that snow plough injuries are more common.
Previously I never questioned that there was any alternative to the risk of these injuries, but having seen so many now I would feel it irresponsible not to question it.
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| bum wrote: |
| But they do point to more knee injuries from a failed snow plough than from a badly performed hockey stop. Although I wouldn't be surprised if a badly performed hockey stop led to more wrist and shoulder injuries than a failed snow plough. But overall my gut feeling is that snow plough injuries are more common. |
That might well because few people are taught hockey-stop type turns as being the correct way of steering their skis. If I taught a direct to parallel method completely bypassing the stability of a plough I'd expect to see many more falls. I accept that they would be wrist and shoulder injuries rather than knees, but I suspect there would be a much higher number than the apparent epidemic of knee explosions from backwards falling snowploughers (an epidemic that I see no evidence of, by the way).
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| Quote: |
I think all of us at some stage have tried to push ourselves that little further, trying a slope that might be just slightly outside our comfort zone, or doing that jump that is a bit higher than the last. That's how we generally progress and get an adrenaline rush, isn't it?
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It might be how we get an "adrenaline rush" but not, in my experience, how we progress. A far safer and more reliable way to "progress" is to practice and perfect new skills on terrain well within our comfort zone. I spent all morning today skiing on greens and very easy blues, with a very nervous (third week) beginner friend. I also did a great deal of "progressing" - occasionally I tried to lay down a good line in front of him, but mostly I skied behind him, practising all kind of daft skills like side slipping on the uphill ski and pivot slips. I did not, I have to confess, get any "adrenaline rush" but I certainly "progressed".
It seems to be a widely held feeling that you only "progress" by skiing hard slopes badly. You see so many people out on slopes well beyond their ability (often with a mate who is out in front doing ghastly turns and showing off). Do you "progress" by hobbling down a difficult slope, or skiing in control and with good technique down an easier one? When those new skills are good enough, you can then go on to ski in control (if with rather wobblier technique) down a harder slope. Or maybe that's just the old lady way of doing things. Keeps my knees intact, though (touch wood) and despite spending a lot of time route-finding for friends who are not great skiers, nobody in my care has yet injured themselves (touch wood again......).
I am very wary skiing with people who are much better than I am, in unfamiliar places, in case I do find myself too far out of my comfort zone. Hopefully the things I've practised on my greens and blues though, would help me "get down" and not try the same run a second time.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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bum, ok - as another quack - with an interest, but not expertise in ski injuries - the classical knee injury is as you know in a low speed twisting fall, and the highest likelihood (per skier hour) is in a middle-aged women. The slow speed bit is probably because the forces on the binding accumulate in a progressive manner rather than a sudden impulse, and the boot side may be interacting with the ground directly bypassing the binding (This is one of DGs areas of expertise - be interesting to hear what he says)
The snowplough does inherently pose some risk because of the implicit valgus strain on the knees leading to potential MCL (or even "holy trinity" - MCL + ACL + Med meniscus damage) when the position goes too far, but the same can happen in twisting injuries on flattish pistes, doing hockey stops, being collided into etc etc. I guess I probably only see 1 or 2 of these a year, but I always go into details on exactly where and what was happening, and I cannot remember snowploughing being a frequent feature. If you are a sports physician or knee surgeon and have some evidence about this I would be interested. Perhaps given your username you are colorectal surgeon?  I think there is no doubt that the snowplough position is more comfortable for kids than for adults.
However the snowplough is not only a good turn-of-last-resort (even occasionally in moguls at slow speed) but it is a good way of learning what edging and weighting differentially feels like. And it is interesting that the evolutif and GLM never really caught on more widely.
The clear message for me here is that not once, but twice, you accompanied skiers of limited ability, perhaps at their urging, into terrain for which they did not possess the requisite skills and they injured themselves.
Perhaps the thread title should be "I should be banned from skiing with less experienced friends". 
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Lisa222, I was out on the bike with Kramer a week back. If he gets awkward, just make him walk uphill a bit.
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FAQ
Strangely, quite a slow learning curve for me on that one too...
and you can't afford an instructor to be with you 100% of the time. 