 Poster: A snowHead
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Megamum,
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is fear part of the reason we ski (the adrenaline rush maybe)?
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I think so. I't s about finding the balance between adrenaline (which makes you ski better) and fear (which makes you ski worse. I think it's a fine line between the two.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Is that where I am lacking - do most skiers actively love the extreme rides at theme parks because of the adrenaline thrill? I don't - I feel seasick on them. My skiing ambition is to cruise smoothly enjoying the ride, not hastily bomb from one hairy moment to the next.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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pam w, agreed, though I've been told "Inner Tennis" is better.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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beanie1, Very true... when I get too far from my comfort zone I just tense up and just cant relax into the turns. But although I love attempting precision turns on the slopes... unless I am bricking it a little bit and having the feeling of risk pulling at my stomach I just don't get that sense of satisfaction afterwards. It's like climbing... I am a real wuss but as I can scare myself on relatively safe routes I can get the excitement without really putting myself in danger.
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Butterfly, no, I can't stand those rides either. Fortunately, we're all different! There's a difference between fear and adrenaline (and I guess all those crazy extreme skiers and downhill racers who do actually kill themselves not infrequently can turn fear into adrenaline) but there's also an important difference between the kind of risks they run and the kind of risks we run, as gentle middle-aged-or-worse holiday skiers. I think the thing is to get the risks you are taking (pretty small, compared to the risks you take every time you drive out on a busy road, or the risk of having a stroke or heart attack before long if you spend all your time sitting on the sofa watching TV) into proportion. You might like "Inner Skiing" too.
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Butterfly, I brick it on rides as I am not in control. Much prefer a bike or planks 
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Butterfly, some skiers no doubt love the adrenaline rush of both, but I am interested in:
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I don't - I feel seasick on them.
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There is a moment in some turn transitions, when they are properly performed, that feels like the 'falling' sensation of a theme park ride. I was under the impression that this sensation was the basis for easiski's 'Dare to dive' signature line.
That sensation does -not- have anything to do with the overall speed one carries down the run; one can go quite slowly indeed and play with the sensation until one feels just as much (if not more) in control as on a diving board.
In a way, theme parks have given the wrong idea. On a theme park ride, this sensation is always a prelude to out-of-control speed. This is not the case with skiing, yet people have learned to avoid the diving sensation as part of avoiding speed.
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| My skiing ambition is to cruise smoothly enjoying the ride, not hastily bomb from one hairy moment to the next. |
This is perfectly valid. [/b]
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| Quote: |
There is a moment in some turn transitions, when they are properly performed, that feels like the 'falling' sensation of a theme park ride. I was under the impression that this sensation was the basis for easiski's 'Dare to dive' signature line.
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yes, that is the basis for the "dare to dive". Like Butterfly I feel seasick on rides that go round and round. My 3 year old grandson pushed me round on one in a tiny little playground last weekend and I had to shut my eyes and put my head in my hands. He thought I was weeping! I think it's partly an age thing - I used to be able to do somersaults on a trampoline but a headover heels on the carpet leaves me spinning now. (That's the only reason, of course, why I can't do Fastman's one-footed 360s  ). However, I'm OK with ordinary skiing and I'm actually not bad at the dive down the fall line, either. It's definitely not the same - or not for me, anyway.
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pam w, there is a body of work that suggests motion sickness is not a conflicting-perceptions problem but a lack-of-control problem, for example:
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=finding-balance-seasickness
which would tend to explain most of your post? And perhaps further suggest that balance work and core-fitness work can help with the sick feeling when control is available (i.e. yes on skis and trampolines but not on theme park rides)?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I'm sure there's something in the "lack of control" theory (a classic solution to a seasick sailor is to give him the helm, where one's posture becomes more at one with the boat) but I don't think it's the whole story. And it doesn't explain why I used to be able to do somersaults on trampolines and I used to do lots of upside down things like back-dives, carthwheels etc. I can't do them now - and I even feel seasick on simple swings, where I am completely in control of my posture and the whole situation (and invariably use that control to get off, sharpish). I have absolutely no problem with my postural control on a swing - but it still makes me feel sick, very quickly. I remember loving swings as a child and being incredulous when my mother told me they made her feel seasick. I thought she was a bit pathetic, but now I understand.
I am now very easily made dizzy and wouldn't dream of going on a fairground ride such as Waltzers even if I was very firmly strapped in and had no motor control problems at all. Even with my eyes closed I'd feel sick (I did when my grandson pushed me on the swing). But I don't find "diving downhill" remotely giddy making - one is, after all, turning through at most 180 degrees.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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pam w, may be to do with the natural loss of nervous function with age. Eg you lose proprioception - hence one reason why fall risk increases I wonder if you also lose some of the balance function and so are more prone to vertigo? I have noticed I see more patient with vertigo that are older... never thought about why
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I like the fast rides at theme parks (log flume, mine train etc) but hate the sick ones - galleon, anything that spins round, goes upside down, or drops suddenly.
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You know it makes sense.
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| little tiger wrote: |
| may be to do with the natural loss of nervous function with age. Eg you lose proprioception |
Maybe this is age related; I certainly feel as though I suffer from vertigo more as I get older. I used to be a tree surgeon when young and would happily hang upside down from a branch 50ft up, now however I get wobbly on exposed places, such as any large building with glass balustrades that look over a central atrium.
| pam w wrote: |
| Even with my eyes closed I'd feel sick |
Closing your eyes makes things worse. We do a fair bit of balance processing based on what we can see; try standing on one leg then closing your eyes and see how much harder it is.
It is possible that it has nothing do with age and we always felt this way but it is far easier as a "grown up" to choose not to do something that makes us feel uneasy.
One thing that's important to me is to always try to overcome any unfounded fears such as vertigo or fear of speed/crashing. Just take a little time, get used to the experience, tell yourself that you are not in any great danger and start enjoying the sensation. Try not to crash or fall off though 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Just going back to the comments about the adrenaline rush...... adrenaline is released into the blood in response to physical or mental stress, causing effects on the body i.e increased heart rate/blood pressure, rise in blood sugar, dilated pupils etc. All of these effects are to prepare the body for immediate action, it's the fright/flight response.
We don't have control over this physiological response but obviously some love it's effects and seek out situations where they'll get their 'fix', but it's part of our body's mechanism for self preservation, I think whether we like the feeling or not depends on the individual but it is designed to get us/keep us out of trouble.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| skimum wrote: |
Just going back to the comments about the adrenaline rush...... adrenaline is released into the blood in response to physical or mental stress, causing effects on the body i.e increased heart rate/blood pressure, rise in blood sugar, dilated pupils etc. All of these effects are to prepare the body for immediate action, it's the fright/flight response.
We don't have control over this physiological response but obviously some love it's effects and seek out situations where they'll get their 'fix', but it's part of our body's mechanism for self preservation, I think whether we like the feeling or not depends on the individual but it is designed to get us/keep us out of trouble. |
4F's
Fright,
Flight,
Fight,
Fornication
So sometimes it might get you into trouble
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| skimum wrote: |
Just going back to the comments about the adrenaline rush...... adrenaline is released into the blood in response to physical or mental stress, causing effects on the body i.e increased heart rate/blood pressure, rise in blood sugar, dilated pupils etc. All of these effects are to prepare the body for immediate action, it's the fright/flight response.
We don't have control over this physiological response but obviously some love it's effects and seek out situations where they'll get their 'fix', but it's part of our body's mechanism for self preservation, I think whether we like the feeling or not depends on the individual but it is designed to get us/keep us out of trouble. |
4F's
Fright,
Flight,
Fight,
Fornication
So sometimes it might get you into trouble
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Quote: |
unfounded fears such as vertigo
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sorry - bit of thread hijack here - but vertigo is most definitely not an unfounded fear. If you suffer from positional vertigo, when you wake up in the morning, lying on your side in bed, and open your eyes, the entire wall is whooshing around and it is completely impossible to even consider standing up. I only had one attack like that and fortunately my GP immediately gave me the right pills and said he had suffered the exact same thing and had to lie on the floor under his desk and get his colleagues to see all his patients. He had never had an occurrence and I have only had very mild ones - but still that same distinct impression that the bedroom wall is moving.
The best cure for bad seasickness is to lie down on a bunk (with a bucket beside you), keep warm, and close your eyes. It is often a battle to get very seasick people to leave the cockpit but once down there, lying down, they generally feel better and at least are not in danger. Having poor balance (not being able to stand on one leg, and definitely not with your eyes closed) has nothing to do, in my own experience, with feeling giddy when you try to do a forward roll. I have pretty good balance - can turn on one leg in both directions on skis etc. That kind of balance is far harder with eyes closed (I stand on one leg, unobtrusively, in queues but draw the line at doing it with eyes closed and knocking all the old ladies waiting to buy their Christmas stamps down like dominos). Vertigo is different - I can assure you that when you are lying safely in bed in Hampshire and the bedroom radiator is dancing around in front of your eyes then you shut them - and feel a lot better.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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little tiger,
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pam w, My apologise, I didn't mean to denigrate how debilitating vertigo can be. The sensation of the room swimming is entirely valid. By unfounded I meant that the fear that you might fall is one that can be overcome as it is not likely to happen and that in turn reduces the vertigo. Presumably, that doesn't apply to positional vertigo as no heights are involved.
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4F's
Fright,
Flight,
Fight,
Fornication
So sometimes it might get you into trouble
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Yes, you don't want to be getting into Fights.
tiffin, I think you are confusing a fear of heights (an irrational phobia, like fear of flying, spiders, etc which is nonetheless very disabling and paralysing) with vertigo (which is something completely different and may be benign, like mine, or a sympton of something very nasty happening in your brain). If you have an irrational fear of heights, or "edges" which makes chairlifts, and certain runs, very difficult for you, then you need to find a way of getting over it - I'd agree there.
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pam w, A bit of googling later...
Its seems its a bit more complex than vertigo vs fear of heights (Acrophobia). I'm not scared of heights but I do get a mild swimming sensation when looking down into a void. I think this is called height vertigo and is different from the vertigo caused by movement that you suffer from. Anyhoo, someone feel free to drag this back on topic now
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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pam w, I was thinking of vertigo from ear problems... eg. Menieres and there is no fear in that
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My issue is getting on a steep black slope .. then realising it's windblown icy hardpack. The skis slide (no doubt because I've leant back), and I skid over to the side of the piste because I've bottled out of making a turn.
I'm then stuck at the side, looking down this steep, icy slope in complete terror and wondering if I'm going to die if I turn on it.
All of this is ridiculous, because it's well within my ability to ski it - it's just a sudden fear of I don't know what! This exact scenario happened at the top of the Aiguille Rouge in Les Arcs about 8 years ago .. I ended up side-stepping all the way down, like a total wuss. It didn't help that someone in my group slid right to the bottom whilst I watched, and injured themselves .. or that a beginner who had no business being on the slope slid down and knocked my ski tails making me slide further.
How do you get out of that situation? One way I've found is to lean down, stick the pole in the snow as far down as I can reach, and turn round it - but there must be a technique for getting down that windblown, icy steep stuff without totally losing your edges.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Picadilly, there's always the faithful side-slip! Being really good at side-slipping (to get back to Fastman's videos, there are lots of great side-slipping skills to practice) is a great confidence booster.
little tiger, yes, menieres and all that, as with benign positional vertigo - nothing to do with fear at all. In my case, bits of debris bashing against the little hairs in the ear canals. Google for "Epleys manoevre". My GP did it on me, and it helped.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| pam w wrote: |
Picadilly, there's always the faithful side-slip! Being really good at side-slipping (to get back to Fastman's videos, there are lots of great side-slipping skills to practice) is a great confidence booster.
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Yeah, have side-slipped in the past to get out of trouble, but it feels like a total cop out and I'd rather ski it properly - especially considering I used to be able to, before my Les Arcs terror!
Just wondered if anyone had any technique tips for actually turning on the steep/icy stuff. It's not actual ice of course, you know the stuff I mean.
Sharp edges and courage perhaps?!
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Picadilly, what you describe is exactly what's happened to me, but on far tamer slopes (.... blue ones but masquerading as blacks I reckon  ). This was before I discovered side-slipping with Easiski. Last March she took us all the way from the glacier resto down to Cretes and that involved bypassing a steep section by negotiating an even steeper bank by sideslipping at Toura. That was when I really discovered its benefits. However I am still not a confident side-slipper & I have absolutely NO idea how to cope with ice.
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You know it makes sense.
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I have absolutely NO idea how to cope with ice.
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few of us have, don't worry. and it's not that common - mostly people say "ice" but just mean hardpack. My son was shown one way to cope skiing in Val D'Isere with his instructor mates. A very long, very fast, sideslip, skis flat. Hold your nerve and wait.....  He said he watched them do it, then just gritted his teeth and got on with it. But he's a very good skier (infinitely better than I could ever be, though he says that compared to his instructor mates, he's rubbish - everything is relative).
Instructors have told me that when it's real green shiny stuff, on more gentle sort of pistes, you just keep your skis flat, keep balanced, keep relaxed, and wait till you get to the other side. No good trying to edge. It's hard to stop yourself doing a defensive bit of edging though.
One merit of knowing your ski area very well is that you can avoid too many bum-clenching moments.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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pam w, I've never encountered ice so pure, smooth and slippery as on a 500 metre stretch one morning on Cairngorm's mid M2 just before the right hand drop off down to the bottom of the Ciste. It's the schussing part of that slope with about a 5 degree gradient (at most) and had obviously flowed the previous afternoon as a slow river before becoming frozen overnight. Edges were meaningless and defensive balance was the only approach but I shudder to think of encountering similar conditions on steep ground. As you say, most ice is just teeth chattering hardback and thankfully so.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| pam w wrote: |
few of us have, don't worry. and it's not that common - mostly people say "ice" but just mean hardpack. My son was shown one way to cope skiing in Val D'Isere with his instructor mates. A very long, very fast, sideslip, skis flat. Hold your nerve and wait..... He said he watched them do it, then just gritted his teeth and got on with it. But he's a very good skier (infinitely better than I could ever be, though he says that compared to his instructor mates, he's rubbish - everything is relative).
Instructors have told me that when it's real green shiny stuff, on more gentle sort of pistes, you just keep your skis flat, keep balanced, keep relaxed, and wait till you get to the other side. No good trying to edge. It's hard to stop yourself doing a defensive bit of edging though.
One merit of knowing your ski area very well is that you can avoid too many bum-clenching moments. |
^^ yep I've had that advice from instructors - just keep your skis flat and glide across it. That does help, and I'm not worried if the gradient's not steep. But what do you do on windblown hardpack when it IS steep?
Normally I'll look for the patches of soft stuff and aim to turn on them, but sometimes there aren't any!
The good/expert skiers go down like they would any other slope, how are they doing it?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Picadilly wrote: |
The good/expert skiers go down like they would any other slope, how are they doing it? |
I guess it might have something to do with a flawless technique, properly tuned equipment and just enough confidence
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| .ice... .. just keep your skis flat and glide across it. |
Ooh what a nasty little word just is!
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Picadilly wrote: |
| But what do you do on windblown hardpack when it IS steep? |
As mentioned, as long as it's not pure water ice, most stuff you'll come across has adequate grip available to be tackled one way or another. Windblown hardpack can actually be very grippy indeed especially when there's not been a thaw-freeze cycle and sometimes has a surface that hates to release an edge from a tramline in which case it's best carved forcefully. Frozen gelled crud naturally has a textured surface which an edge nibbles at quite easily as it rattles across the lumps and bumps and smooth frozen spring snow can be a breeze if you just relax and don't expect too much of it.
You can approach these snow types using faith, velocity and downwards mass through the turns to bend the skis through the arc just like carving a perfect piste but that's best saved for downhill racers and fantasists.
In the real world and for minimum effort and maximum confidence though, don't think about tramline carves because if you're already feeling nervous about it you just won't be carrying enough speed to bend your skis but instead don't be ashamed to let yourself scrape and slide through the turns with some lateral movement rather than all forwards. You'll know when you've got it just right because you'll hear the sideways grinding of hard snow throughout your turns that an instructor would ordinarily tell you is wrong, just wrong etc etc. With practice, you can get into an easy rhythm of scraped turns on hard packed snow slopes beyond 30 degrees or so with little effort whatsoever. It's lazy, yes and it doesn't look very pretty either but you'll stay upright, your legs will be fresh and you'll be happy to go back and do it all over again. 
Sharp edges and continual edge release drills help immensely BTW. If you're just sitting at the bottom of a lift waiting for someone, or if you're just bimbling along, play with your edge contact, both feet together, over and over again until you start annoying yourself and others around you and have to consciously stop yourself doing it. Then, the edge release and reengagement you'll use for scraped turns on hard frozen snow will become second nature.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| moffatross wrote: |
| Windblown hardpack can actually be very grippy indeed especially when there's not been a thaw-freeze cycle and sometimes has a surface that hates to release an edge from a tramline in which case it's best carved forcefully |
Yup, I've come across that before - piste M in Courchevel was hard but very grippy last December.
Thanks very much for the tips, that's the kind of advice I was looking for - I won't be too ashamed to skid my way down then 
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Picadilly, THink about trying to cut a large block of ice... If you hit it with the knife the knife will bounce off... If you try to slice it but slam the knife down too hard again the knife will tend to jump sideways, you need to gently apply the knife and slowly let it start to cut a track without pushing too hard and making the blade slip...
Same with your skis... they need to cut a small track in the snow... if you apply pressure suddenly to a ski it will tend to slip... so you must feel that edge start to grip(as you pronate that leg) before you get pressure onto it... a transition that involves flinging your weight around ("throw yourself down the hill") tends to increase pressure very suddenly... practise your transitions when you are skiing regularly - see how smooth you can make that transfer of weight to the new ski...
Think about driving on snow/ice no sudden moves if you do not want to skid... you can 'slide' in control - but with less grip than normal but a sudden change in direction/braking/weird gear change can be enough to make you skid... Try to ski like you drive - smooth progressive movements no sudden jerky ones... accept you won't have as much grip - but you can control that slidey type of feeling and keep it all going where you want...
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Best advice I ever had for ice was - it's ice so you're going to slide/skid, just accept it and go with it. The other essential is to stay relaxed and not tense up, but of course that's much easier said than done!
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| eng_ch wrote: |
| The other essential is to stay relaxed and not tense up, but of course that's much easier said than done! |
It's also wrong.
Ever practiced walking with a book balanced on your head?
All the muscle tension is directed to keeping the upper body /quiet/. If muscle tension was gotten rid of instead of /focused/ the chin would drop and the head would fall forward and the shoulders would stoop just like in REM sleep.
The trouble is, people are most often simply unaware of how jerky and unfocused their body motions are.
For example, the extent of lower limb motion in skiing is fairly comparable to the extent of lower limb motion on an elliptical machine in a gym. Go to a gym and watch. See if you spot one, one person using an elliptical machine that would have a prayer of holding a book balanced on their head while they use the elliptical machine. Yet that is exactly the sort of upper-body-quiet that skiing on ice demands.
If one were to tell a person on an elliptical machine to 'relax' the upper body, what would happen? Ans: the upper body would jerk along with the hip motion as a dead weight. So a person who was partially successful at relaxing on command while skiing on ice would still have problems.
Challenge for the day: Walk down a set of stairs with a book balanced on your head.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Bloody hell, a 7-paragraph comprex post which is clear and to the point!  (and that in a Bend Ze Knees thread!)
No comment on the content, I actually would like to see an instructor discussing the relax - vs - tense-up point.
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comprex, agreed - but as a Pilates enthusiast, I'd be bound to agree. The 'short' answer is to engage core abdominal muscles at all times.
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FAQ
. However the next I just thought - "oh what the hell 1-2-3 GO!" and went for it, zigzagging up and down the sides - then afterwards I was heard to announce "WOW that was FUN!". After that my overall speed on the slope increased to the point that Easiski commented in the trip thread "... Butterfly was skiing quite fast today. (She really was, and so was Iscream)"! I need to go and do more of it - it was a good way to separate the adrenaline experience from real fear - the terrain was clearly safe and I was not going to shoot off out of control.