 Poster: A snowHead
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| Adrian wrote: |
| "Sorry" seem to occur a lot in your big post, Wayne, I just counted 12 as an apology plus one in your rep's guidelines. Surely if you are handling 1000 people per week you are a big enough TO to tell your suppliers what you want. |
Most of the sorry(s) were basically to say - sorry I don't agree with you on that point or there is nowt we can do on that point.
The 1,000 is the combined number of arrivals and departures. Not 2,000.
| Adrian wrote: |
| And what you want is things that make your customers happy, that prevent them from complaining and that entice repeat business. |
We do try.
And people complaining. I honestly don't mind. Normally we will think everything is fine but that’s as we will be looking at it from our point of view (even though we try really hard to). If someone points out that (from a client's point of view) something could be done better, then we'll try and sort it out.
We wouldn't have know about it, unless someone tells us. I think most people don't start with a complaint. They start with a comment that then turns into a complaint. The trick is (IMO) to sort it out at the comment stage. Of course some things can't be sorted, but most things can. Just takes a little effort.
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Sat 12-09-09 14:44; edited 1 time in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Wayne wrote: |
| fatbob wrote: |
You don't supply cakes? I withdraw revise my earlier estimate of being willing to spend £650 all-in to £2.50.
My inflexibility point was on very few single rooms available so if you're travelling as a party of 3 you're much more likely to be squeezed in a room which is too small for 3 people & kit than get a twin and a single. You charge a supplement for twin over double beds? Now that's cheeky. |
No, we charge for a single person in a twin or double room (as I imagine do all TO's)
We don't (again I imagine this is the same with all TO's) charge for a single person in a single room.
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That is not remotely the same with all TO's.
Most hotels/chalets will have a price listed for each week, and that will be for "standard" occupancy of a standard room. There is usually a supplement for a single in a single room (and a higher one for sole use of twin/double).
You do get some with no single supplement, but I would say that is no more than about 1 in 20 of the hotels which even have single rooms listed at all.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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alex_heney,
Hi, Just wondering how these TO's (that do charge) get away with charging someone a single supplement for a room with only a single bed. Sounds like a bit of a scam to me. I can fully understand charging under occupancy rates to someone on their own staying in a room with a double or twin beds. But to charge for a single (normally small) room with just one bed, well, sounds strange to me.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Wayne, Skiplan were doing that two years ago. Disgraceful rip-off if you ask me.
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Wayne,
| Quote: |
" Agenterre wrote:
Commitments to change or research change -- zero! "
Thats the whole point.
But I know that if you put your head above the parapet then people will try and shoot at you.
Just the nature of things. No worriies. |
A different interpretation is that the thread is no more than at attempt at 'Pimp my TO' and nothing to do with 'heads above parapets' - that is my interpretation ( not necessarily correct). There is no doubt that TOs provide a good and much appreciated service. You would also be correct that I'm having great fun this summer having a pop at posts that I see as guerilla marketing! Mind you at the current rate of pimping there'll be more pimp posts than whore posts by the start of the winter. Nothing personal!
However, many good-hearted and helpful people, I exclude myself from that group, posted their wish-lists for change in response to your OP. Most requests/observations were reasonable for investigation and action. Your (sadly now deleted) response dissed every one in some form or another as I've already pointed out. Consequently why should I give any credibility to the intent of your OP?
Too many TOs have strong 'Customer Service' ethics built into their blurb, however, the reality is very different as their business models are predicated on Cash Flow Management , Price-driven bulk Purchasing , Standard Products and marketing to target markets where 'low cost' is the key element of the buying decision. I have no problem with any of the models -- except where the highest levels of personalised or superior service are promised that differ from reality.
TO business-models can be very different - and targeted at many different market segments/niches-- consequently (in my opinion) it is impossible to generalise about 'TOs' and their service standards. Some do achieve the highest standards - some will make sure you have enough coat hangers and nice short check-in queues ( as opposed to blaming their suppliers/partners when things go wrong. Simply a matter of finding the right TO for your own aspirations and expectations.
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The most annoying thing about TOs - for me - is something that is inherent in the whole arrangement. Loss of control.
So you don't get to choose your flights, the seat spacing is crap, the transfer arrangements are time-wasting and more suitable for delivering a parcel than making you feel you are on holiday. The hotel/chalet is mainly concerned with making a profit within the tight price the TO has negotiated - and you are caught between them. Then you have reps who are good at selling things - but at evading responsibility when things go wrong.
When you organise things yourself - you get to choose - you have the responsibility and stress perhaps - but I find it more stressful ceding control to some feckless muppet, especially if I am travelling with family.
If a TO was honest and less concerned with offering choice - it might be better. For instance;
1) Only flying from one airport to a particular destination so that,
2) A transfer could leave immediately on arrival at the airport, to a single destination and no more that 2 or 3 stops to drop-off.
3) Simple written info about what was in resort and how to arrange things had been posted to the punters 1-2 weeks beforehand - and was available again in the coach and the hotel.
4) Catering was basic but honest, unless the hotel/chalet really could deliver high quality food consistently.
5) No "free" booze.
6) The rep had authority to sort things out in resort - and preferably was a local.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Agenterre wrote: |
| A different interpretation is that the thread is no more than at attempt at 'Pimp my TO' and nothing to do with 'heads above parapets' - that is my interpretation ( not necessarily correct). |
So, you have a TO asking what people don’t like and you try and find an ulterior motive. Sorry, but really don’t think there is anything I can answer that with.
| Agenterre wrote: |
| Too many TOs have strong 'Customer Service' ethics built into their blurb, however, the reality is very different as their business models are predicated on Cash Flow Management , Price-driven bulk Purchasing , Standard Products and marketing to target markets where 'low cost' is the key element of the buying decision. I have no problem with any of the models -- except where the highest levels of personalised or superior service are promised that differ from reality. |
Basically anyone who disagrees with your ideas of how things should be run.
| Agenterre wrote: |
| However, many good-hearted and helpful people, I exclude myself from that group, posted their wish-lists for change in response to your OP. Most requests/observations were reasonable for investigation and action. Your (sadly now deleted) response dissed every one in some form or another as I've already pointed out. Consequently why should I give any credibility to the intent of your OP? |
It may be unusual I know but I have tried to give honest answers. Just because someone makes a point doesn’t mean I have to agree with them. Don’t forget that I may be wrong in my beliefs. But I’m sure you would prefer my honestly held opinion over some sycophantic marketing blurb. Maybe not, who knows.
| Agenterre wrote: |
| Simply a matter of finding the right TO for your own aspirations and expectations. |
Yep, we agree.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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OK then, I have tried, really hard here to give an answer to each point, but the answer I give is just my opinion. So remember that’s all it is, someone’s opinion. I may be wrong.
So now you have read that, you don’t have to read the rest if you don’t want to or if you don’t accept that a TO may have a different opinion to you.
I have also tried not to base the answers on my own resort/company/country/etc but of course that’s what they will do to some extent. It is not meant to be an advert for us or anyone else. But of course there are some things they we do and other don’t (and the converse).
We never hold welcome meetings, sell stuff or trips in resort, etc, etc. I am “not” saying that we are right and others are wrong, rather that it’s just our way of doing things. Remember that we are a tiny little company and other (TUI, Crystal, etc) are massive so I would think they know what their doing. Whether you agree with their methods is for you and your money to decide. But they must be doing most things right or they wouldn’t still be here.
If you don’t like the answer I give, you can ignore it. Remember it’s just my opinion (but that doesn’t make it wrong  ).
Next – you’re not going to like this.
Some things simply can not be sorted out by a TO.
Lift queues, flight delays, french coffee, slope café prices, horrid kids, horrid parents, transfer coach or hotel design, etc, etc, etc.
If things like this bother you to such an extent that they ruin your holiday then you need to get over it or you’ll never have a good time. Most small irritations, that can’t be be sorted, can be ignored.
| kitenski wrote: |
| silly timed flights & over generous allowances for getting to airport |
Flight times –
What can I say. The flight times are set by the airlines. Of course this doesn’t apply to TO’s that own their own planes, but even they are restricted by the available slots at the airport.
Allowances –
We have to allow “lots” of leeway in the transfers. It would be problematical (to say the least) to have a full coach of passengers miss their flight home. So I don’t agree that this is a problem. Also don’t forget that your coach back to the airport will be used to collect the arriving passengers. It would not make commercial sense to use 2 coaches if don’t have to. This keeps the cost of your holiday down.
| BCjohnny wrote: |
| Pushy, hard sell resorts reps who just won't leave you alone. |
Reps-
Yes I agree with you on this. I think it’s a little strange that some holiday are advertised as fully inclusive (like when I go on a summer holiday) and then, as soon you arrive, someone starts trying to get money off you. Grrrrrrr.
| paulio wrote: |
Don't like regimented meals.
Don't like sharing a transfer bus with a load of other babbling stinking humans.
Hate having some chummy rep constantly badgering me to pay for extra things |
“Stinking human” – ? Ha Ha.
Extra things = see BCjohnny above
| paulio wrote: |
| I'm a pervert. |
?
| DebbiDoesSnow wrote: |
flight times, misleading baggage allowances, sales pitches on the extras, hotel rooms with no storage/drawers, NO SPARE PLUG SOCKETS, no mirror in the bedroom, no hot breakfast., WiFi should works. |
Allowences –
Sorry but I disagree with you on this. I can’t see how baggage allowances are misleading. All TO’s (I hope) write to clients (maybe with their tickets) and say “You may take a max of ##kg in your suits case and ##kg in your hand luggage.
Plug sockets, mirrors. –
To tell you the truth, there’s nowt a TO can do about that. OK we can ask the hotel to sort it out and they may (or may not) do it. Here’s a little thing (I put this in another post) Last year Enza (owner of the Hotel Gran Baita) put new coat hangers (lots) in all the rooms. 5 weeks later tourist has pinched most of them. V strange
WiFi. –
Yes I agree with you.
| david@mediacopy wrote: |
| Airport check-in Queues, low baggage allowances. |
[/quote]
Queues –
Yes agree with you this can be irritating. I regularity use the KLM desk in Manchester to go to our trip in Tanzania. They have 2 people checking in nearly 300 people. BUT, I always try and look at it from the other point of view (where poss.). All airlines are struggling at the moment. Some more than others. There are in an extremely competitive market so they need to keep costs down (thus allowing them to sell tickets that people can afford). So the long queues are normally (not always) caused by the airlines cutting back on check-in desks to save money (we have no control over this). I think you know about baggage allowances, it’s all to do with getting more money off the clients.
| narc wrote: |
| Welcome meetings, I want my lift pass in advance, Long check in queues for charter flights, Long waits for transfer buses, Being lumped together with a load of brits in a foreign country, Equipment hire poor value, the inflexibility and extra hassle. |
I agree with you on this. We don’t run welcome meetings.
Queues = see david@mediacopy above
Long waits. Yeah I agree with that. TO’s should be able to arrange for different sizes of coaches to cope with ad hoc arrivals and groups of various sizes.
Brits abroad – don’t ya just em.
| Skihopper wrote: |
| airport check-in, all coaches tend to all arrive at the departure airport at same time, too much chat on the transfer bus, the empowered rep |
Check in = see david@mediacopy above
Coaches arriving together. Sorry but in this case I disagree with you. Coach arriveing together is a good thing. It means that they are getting there at the right time for the departure.
To much chat. It may help if you stand up and shout “please shut up” at the top of your voice.. What can ya do, it’s a holiday and people like to chat. You could try the shouting thing and see what happens.
Reps. Don’t know what you mean by empowered
| Colin B wrote: |
| Inghams rep in Zermatt, too expensive at half term and Easter. |
Rep. Can’t (won’t) comment on other companies.
HT. No there not (IMO anyway), sorry to disagree on that, again it’s just my opinon.
Easter. We don’t run at Easter so can’t comment
| JimW wrote: |
Want smaller buses, waiting for other flights before you can leave, stops at a cafe on route, sStopping at EVERY. Damn. chalet, hotel, pension, cow shed in the village before they get to yours,
the worst dressed / loudest / latest arrival/ most badly organised/ largest family with under 5s.
I don't use a TO because of the other people who do. Snob, moi? |
Busses = see narc above
Stopping. Again I’m going to have to disagree with you that this is a problem., sounds like just the driver doing a good job.
worst dressed. Sounds like me and Mrs Wayne on our summer holiday.
| Boris wrote: |
| catering too rigid |
We don’t do chalets so can’t comment on them. But in a hotel, the chef has to prepare meals for up to 200 people. It “has” top be timed right and that may mean a slight more rigid meal structure than if you cook for just a small family. Sorry.
| rich.ll wrote: |
| single rooms with a hefty supplement. |
All TO’s pay hotels either per room or per bed and if they have just 1 person in the room (for 2) then the hotel will charge the TO for this Hence, single supplements. Sorry but that’s just the way it is.
| Jonny Jones wrote: |
| hard to book for a family of five through a TO, extortionate holiday prices. |
If you shop around there “are” companies and hotels with 5 bedded rooms (and there should be a discount PP in such a large room)
| Adrian wrote: |
Check-in queues at airports. Overcrowding in airports, flights delayed, Lack of coat hangers.
Insufficient coat hooks in the room, no hooks that are high enough to hang up a one-piece ski suit, or even sallopettes |
Queues = see david@mediacopy above
Delays. I really would like to be able to give you a positive answer. Such as we are working on this but I can’t. We have no control over this aspect and, to put it bluntly, we will not be able to alter this. Sorry. Flight delays are a problem in every airport in the world. There are so many causes that it would be no use here to try and look for a specific single answer. Sorry about that.
Coat hangers = see DebbiDoesSnow above
| fatbob wrote: |
| Inflexibility/outrageous supplements for singles, triples, Staff who put cake out before the lifts shut then allow their mates to scoff it before the punters get back., Waiting on the first morning for reps to deliver lift passes. 5am transfer buses on departure day for early afternoon flights |
Inflexibility. Some TO’s have 1,000’s of people arriving/departing on some days. There “has” to be a system for this or it would be utter chaos. It may seem slightly inflexible but please try and see it from our point of view. Sorry to have to put it like this and I understand how you’re feeling, but in some cases you need to accept that the sheer size of the logistics required to move this number of people around will mean that the system may seem a like inflexible.
Supplements. I agree with you on this. In my opinion (only) people in triples, quads, etc should have get a discount PP (not a supp) and I think most TO’s do this..
Cakes. We don’t supply cakes so can’t comment.
Waiting for lift passes. Again I agree with you. There really is no reason that I can see as to why lift passes aren’t handed out on the transfer buss from the airport. It take a little more organising but I would think that A] clients would like it. B] It would actually make the operation of the trip (from the TO’s point of view) a little easier, on the first morning of the week.
Transfers = see Skihopper above
| Agenterre wrote: |
| I hate TOs 'cos they are continually conducting Market Surveys, Focus Groups & Product Research sessions but all they ever do is boast about how good they are but never change anything. |
It’s OK, we still love you.
| parallel lines wrote: |
| 5 hour bus transfers, hotel 200m up a mountain from lift |
Transfers = see Skihopper above
200m. I agree with you on this. There is no reason now why TO’s can’t put a Google Maps Photos of the resort showing exactly where each hotel is. But don’t forget that you could also check this before booking.
Long transfers. Yep. Agree with you on that point as well.
| Helen Beaumont wrote: |
| Delivering the wrong lift passes, sticking them under the door instead of handing them to us, same company put us in beginners ski lessons, incorrect room allocations, arriving at resort one hour after the welcome meeting, v early departure and dining room locked |
Lift pass. Yeah I agree that is scandalous. It’s just wrong and you should complain to the resort manager about this.
Room allocations. Again I agree with you. With the systems that are now in place in the admin offices of TO’s you should be able to book a specific room in a specific hotel. So you know where you’ll be staying.
Arriving after welcome meeting. = see narc above
| altis wrote: |
top of my list of hates is the resort rep. Why are they all so incompetent?
Next up is the girl on the transfer bus that wants to sell you skis and boots (no we don't need them, thanks) and a lift pass.
The live-out chalet host who didn't turn up to make breakfast
All those jolly-you-along events like picnics and karaoke nights that actually turn out really boring.
TO menus try too hard and just ends up rich and pretentious.
Crap 'free' wine.
And finally. why is there always someone (always a man) who thinks they are God's gift to conversation but are, in reality, are utterly boring? For some reason they often seem to be involved in agriculture. Perhaps you could advertise farmer-free holidays, Wayne. It would certainly attract my attention. |
Resort Reps. Sorry but think our’s are really good (I train em). But I think e have all had bad rep experiences. In each resort (or area) there is always a senior person working for th TO. If you’re not happy with the rep then contact the senior person.
Selling stuff on the bus. = see BCjohnny above
Chalet hoasts. We don’t have any as only use hotels so can’t comment.
Events. = see BCjohnny above
Menus. Yes I agree. Some people (chefs, hotel managers) do seem to blag out the menus. Think this may be a good reason for a letter to the TO.
Farmers. What can I say. It’s a free world. Live and let live.
| Crunchiepink13 wrote: |
| over priced ski hire, horrible flight times, long transfers - v unrealistic in brochure. it says 2.5 hours, takes 4 + with no food and after 90 min wait at airport for other flights. |
Ski hire. Just my opinion so almost certainly wrong but IMO ski hire should be included within the cost of a TO package or (if not req.) then ski carriage. This is as everyone wants “either” hire or carriage.
Flight times = see kitenski above
Long Transfers. I agree on this point. TO’s should be able to do something about landing clients at an airport a reasonable distance from the resort.
| maggi wrote: |
Oh, the transfer; waiting form other flights, loos on the bus out of order (that the reason is not plumbing, it is because the TO will not pay for the cleaning so it cannot be used
No DVDs on bus as TOs will not pay for the broadcasting licence
No the air con on bus (that costs too)
Baggage racks too small for rucksacs.
There never enough leg room
Coach/minibus transfers; the minibus is never there
4.00 am transfer for a 1.00 pm departure |
No loos. I think you’re wrong about this. Sounds like someone blaming a TO as they are an easy target and people tend to believe anything bad said about them.
DVD’s. Same answer
Air Con. Same answer
Leg room. What can ya do. Transfer coaches are just that; for “transfer”. They have extra seats on them which reduces the leg room PP. You may be interested to know that transfers cost most TO’s more than ski hire PP. So if they/we can get more people onto each coach then they/we will. Sorry but it just economic sense..
Transfers = see Skihopper above
| Jo225 wrote: |
| I would like a rep who really knew the resort & could advise on suitable runs & nice lunch stops, honesty in brochures is always a good thing. |
Reps. I think our reps are OK. The 1st thing I always tell em when they start is remember one phrase “and use” as required. “I’m sorry I don’t know, but I’ll find out”.
Brochures. I hope our web site is accurate.
| Lizzard wrote: |
| Quote: |
top of my list of hates is the resort rep. Why are they all so incompetent?
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They're paid less than £100 a week. What do you want for that sort of money?
| Quote: |
most standard TO menus try too hard and just ends up rich and pretentious.
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I've been saying this for years. What's the matter with roast dinner, pasta dishes and casseroles? A friend of mine used to score serious brownie points from her guests because she more or less ignored the menu and made them curries and bolognese. She came in well under budget as well. |
Rep. Don’t know what other TO’s pay their reps but our’s get £450 per week. With no deductions for costs.
Yeah I agree about the menus. What’s the point in that.
| Jumper wrote: |
| -The rep selling stuff on the coach transfer, Queues in ski hire, Leaving resort in middle of night on way home, Check-in queues. |
Selling = see BCjohnny above
Transfers = see Skihopper above
| erica2004 wrote: |
I can't bear the chit-chat on the bus to the resort, on the way home they chat far too much about which check in we should go to at the airport when there might only be a choice of two. Far too low class for me.  |
Chatting = see Skihopper above (the shouting thing)
| Dypcdiver wrote: |
Transfer times, Holiday reps who think a ski instructor is a mountain guide,
Tyrolian evening excursion that includes drinking Sangria and singing along to "Una Paloma Blanca and Viva Espana" (Zell am Ziller) 
Parents who allow their children to run in and out of the tables during meal times, whilst they have their meal in peace. |
Transfers = see Skihopper above
Holiday reps. Can’t really comment on this (maybe some training needed by the resort manager for the reps).
Mountain guidesa should all be UAIGM or hold other full badges
Tyrolian evening. Sorry (I disagree) but when I go to Austria, I love them (maybe really am too low class)
Kids. A big stick (to wack the parents) may help.
| pam w wrote: |
| Not getting what you booked, No hooks, rubbish hire equipment, Late breakfast, Horrible departure times, Slow transfers - trailing round other people's hotels when your own is last on a long list |
Not getting what you booked. Maybe a cuase for a letter followed by a claim in the small claims court.
No Hooks = see DebbiDoesSnow above
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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You know it makes sense.
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| Lizzard wrote: |
| If you start operating in France I will apply. |
Are there any ski resorts in france? Nooooo. Your making fun of me now ain't ya!! I'm told there was one once, but maybe that’s just a rumor.
| Lizzard wrote: |
The silly beggars would lose them before they even got to their accommodation. Come on, you know it.  |
We really do give them out on the bus from the airport. It just makes our life much easier that way. There is enough to do on the 1st morning, so it's just one less thing to worry about.
Lose Em? No one has up to now. But we do get people to sign for them.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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Wayne, Flight times are the consideration of the the TO, after all they have charetered the aircraft to the TO. The airline may have different slots and therefor different times and pricing structure. It is the TO that decides which slot / price to go for! That is why the regular flights and DIY holidays are often better suited to the discerning (not in a snobish way, but values their holiday not soley based on price) that said I have nearly alway found DIY to be cheaper than a TO.
The only advantage I see of a TO over DIY is that the company is liable should a cock up occur due to flights landing at airports not origionaly destined. It has only happenned once to me in many years of travelling, luckily that was a TO package. To negate this it was to Innsbruck and most regular airlines do not fly their on their scheduled routes to Austria!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Lizzard, welcome to the 21st century you grumpy old thing
just because you think we are cattle doesn't mean we are. Fly from London city to geneva or zurich, train transfers. No queuing at any stage. Some of the transfer bus stuff is just horrible.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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stoatsbrother, off you go then. But transfer coaches are organised the way they are in order to keep the costs down. And please don't try to tell me that independent travellers never queue, never find their transport delayed or cancelled, never wait for connections etc etc because I know perfectly well that it's a load of tosh.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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As I understand it, this thread is about finding out which 'features' of an organized holiday wind up customers most - so that Wayne can provide a better offering. A good exercise Wayne, I applaud you.
I don't see any need for Wayne - or anybody else - to defend some of the behaviour of the TO industry. And I suspect that, the stronger the defence the fewer complaints will be flushed out.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Lizzard wrote: |
| And please don't try to tell me that independent travellers never queue, never find their transport delayed or cancelled, never wait for connections etc etc because I know perfectly well that it's a load of tosh. |
Well maybe the occasional bouchon (small) or chute de neige on the autoroute which has slowed us down 
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Lizzard, but a small operator ought to be able to differentiate themselves in the Market by addressing the points in my previous post and not treating clients as lumpenpax. I'd pay £20 more for better transfers
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Lizzard, When I fly and hire a car the queuing/unnecessary waiting is negligible if the arrangements go to plan. When I've travelled on a package there was always much more queuing/unnecessary waiting when the arrangements go to plan. Booking my own flights and car hire is more expensive, but I pays my money and I takes my choice. I don't think my experience of the relative merits of DIY v. package flights and transfers is untypical of the mass market TOs.
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| stoatsbrother wrote: |
The most annoying thing about TOs - for me - is something that is inherent in the whole arrangement. Loss of control.
So you don't get to choose your flights, the seat spacing is crap, the transfer arrangements are time-wasting and more suitable for delivering a parcel than making you feel you are on holiday. The hotel/chalet is mainly concerned with making a profit within the tight price the TO has negotiated - and you are caught between them. Then you have reps who are good at selling things - but at evading responsibility when things go wrong. |
Loss of control. Yes you’re right there to an extent.
* The seat spacing is crap.
Can’t see that as being different either on TO or DIY flight. We use the same planes (we don’t own our own). OK we tend to book 70 to 80 seats per flight but it’s still the same seating.
* The transfer arrangements are time-wasting.
Yes, you’re right again but there is a reason for it.
Transfers are basically a logistic strand within the tour. It’s different if you have (for example) me & Mrs Wayne. We just bimble up to Eurocar. Grab the keys and off we go. But…. We can’t do that with hundreds of people and it would not make economic sense (it would put up the cost of the tours) to have a separate coach for each flight arrival.
* The hotel/chalet is mainly concerned with making a profit.
If they didn’t then they go bust. Dead simple. They MUST make a profit.
* within the tight price the TO has negotiated.
Again you’re right here.
* reps who are good at selling things.
Covered that above.
* at evading responsibility when things go wrong.
In each resort there is a senior person. If you have a problem, go and see them.
| stoatsbrother wrote: |
If a TO was honest and less concerned with offering choice - it might be better. For instance;
2) A transfer could leave immediately on arrival at the airport, to a single destination and no more that 2 or 3 stops to drop-off.
3) Simple written info about what was in resort and how to arrange things had been posted to the punters 1-2 weeks beforehand - and was available again in the coach and the hotel.
4) Catering was basic but honest, unless the hotel/chalet really could deliver high quality food consistently.
5) No "free" booze.
6) The rep had authority to sort things out in resort - and preferably was a local. |
1) Only flying from one airport to a particular destination so that,
So we have to decide on London or Manchester. Not both ? Sorry but that’s daft.
2) A transfer could leave immediately on arrival at the airport, to a single destination and no more that 2 or 3 stops to drop-off.
Coach transfers are VERY expensive. TO’s have to make sure they use them economically.
3) Simple written info about what was in resort and how to arrange things had been posted to the punters 1-2 weeks beforehand - and was available again in the coach and the hotel.
Yep. I totally agree. Trying not to turn this into an advert – but we have done that for the past 5 years. I agree with you that other TO should do that. But again, remember that we are a tiny little TO when compared with someone like TUI, Crystal, etc. They "will” have looked it and decide not to use the system. They will have a good reason for not doing it. I’m not defending them but just pointing that everything on a tour is looked at continually to see if it can be improved. You can bet your last buck that all TO’s do this.
4) Catering was basic but honest, unless the hotel/chalet really could deliver high quality food consistently.
What do you mean by “honest”. Roast Beef, Chips, etc, etc. You are going to a foreign country so you have to accept that their meals will be different. Not better or worst, just different.
6) The rep had authority to sort things out in resort - and preferably was a local.[/quote]
Most of them (for most TO’s) do. It all depends on what has gone wrong. You simply can’t expect a young 1st year rep to be able sort out some problems. This will need someone higher up. As I said there is always someone in a resort or area that has the ability to sort out most tings. There are a few that, due to the nature of the problem, need to go up to head office level. It’s the same in all industries not just the tour industry.
There are many locals working for UK TO’s.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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rob@rar, so you pay extra for a better experience/one which suits you better. Fair enough, and rather the point I was making.
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There are many locals working for UK TO’s.
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Who? I can think of one, and she isn't any more. Most TOs insist on employing staff on UK posted worker contracts because this allows them to pay risible wages and makes it easier to ignore local regulations - this is one reason why I quit. The won't employ locals because they can't do so on this basis.
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| Lizzard wrote: |
| so you pay extra for a better experience/one which suits you better. Fair enough, and rather the point I was making. |
Sorry, I thought the point you were making was that there wasn't much of a difference in the travel/transfer experience between TO and DIY options.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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rob@rar, I am saying that £500 or so is cheap for the whole package, and if that's what you book you must expect a mass market experience. This includes being shipped around in the smallest possible number of transfer coaches for reasons of cost.
I am also saying that it isn't the case that just because you travel independently you will necessarily experience a completely smooth and hassle-free journey sans queues or waiting times. I have travelled about like everyone else, and I know very well that scheduled transport also suffers from delays, bad weather, unforseen circumstances, inconvenient connections, yada etc.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Lizzard wrote: |
| I am saying that £500 or so is cheap for the whole package, and if that's what you book you must expect a mass market experience. This includes being shipped around in the smallest possible number of transfer coaches for reasons of cost. |
Indeed. I'm not complaining about mass market TOs running their operation like that. I understand why they do it, but have often opted for a more expensive option because I don't really like to be herded around like that.
| Lizzard wrote: |
| I am also saying that it isn't the case that just because you travel independently you will necessarily experience a completely smooth and hassle-free journey sans queues or waiting times. I have travelled about like everyone else, and I know very well that scheduled transport also suffers from delays, bad weather, unforseen circumstances, inconvenient connections, yada etc. |
Which is why I was careful to state that when things run according to plan I think DIY is a better option because there is less unnecessary waiting around, albeit the more expensive option. Things can and do go awry with DIY travel, although in my experience not so often that I prefer to put myself in a TO's operation.
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rob@rar, what were we arguing about again?
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You know it makes sense.
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Lizzard, I don't know. Am I arguing? We seem to be talking about opposite sides of the same coin.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Wayne, If you aspire to being a big outfit filling big hotels of course you are right. But if you targetting just one area of the uk and one resort there is no reason you could not achieve simpler pleasanter transfers.
As regards seat rake there is a huge difference between sccheduled (including ryanair and ej) spacing and that on charters.
It really depends on who you want to be.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Wayne, If you aspire to being a big outfit filling big hotels of course you are right. But if you targetting just one area of the uk and one resort there is no reason you could not achieve simpler pleasanter transfers.
As regards seat rake there is a huge difference between sccheduled (including ryanair and ej) spacing and that on charters.
Your remarks about "foreign food" are stupid and insulting. Good local food is usually simple.
It really depends on who you want to be. It sounds like you are too entrenched in your current model to learn anything from some of us here.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| stoatsbrother wrote: |
If you aspire to being a big outfit filling big hotels of course you are right. But if you targetting just one area of the uk and one resort there is no reason you could not achieve simpler pleasanter transfers.
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but we do fill big hotels (lots of em)
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Room supplements! Looked at the major TO"s for a deal to Canada/USA prices looked good but rarely rooms available for two. I appreciate families like to share but surely not everyone wants a room for four adults! Just makes you feel like your being ripped off!
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| stoatsbrother wrote: |
| It sounds like you are too entrenched in your current model to learn anything from some of us here. |
Thats not fair
Unusually (again) I am one of the few TO's that changes "stuff" every year due to feedback from clients.
As far as learning anything from some of us here, every single thing that has been put down in this post as a negative has been logged and will be looked at. That's what the original question was for.
I really do want to learn what people want and don’t want. OK, I know that some of the complaints about TO's are outside our control - sorry about that but it's just the way it is, but other items, we can and will change. (even some of your ideas )
Prime example. I have now completely changed our website to show Sunday departures (from the original idea of Mon to Mon to keep the cost down). See 2011 details
This was due entirely to the advice I got from the forum only a few days. So as for being entrenched, you’re simply wrong. Can you think of anyone else (TO) that reacts that fast to advice from "some of us here".
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Wayne,
Yes it is .. your original answers said 'That's the way it'll stay'...exclusively
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| to show Sunday departures (from the original idea of Mon to Mon to keep the cost down) |
Weds-Weds would have been even cheaper ... hardly brain surgery to work that it wouldn't be very popular for folks to take more than 5 days off work ( for those on a 'normal' working week) .
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| his was due entirely to the advice I got from the forum |
..
Yeah ... l now I am getting even more sceptical. In which case you need a bit of advise ...evaluate what you read before implementing it. People do not just 'change' target markets/ operating schedules based upon what they read' especially on here .. well if they do they are doomed!
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Agenterre wrote: |
| Weds-Weds would have been even cheaper |
Not by more than a small amount. Surprisingly (well for me anyway), when you work in the weekend rates for group sales lift passes, the cost of the Sun flights are taken up over the Mon (or Wed). So there is only a few pounds in it.
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Wayne, Ok - so you are positioning yourself as a high volume single-area TO, with poor aircraft seat spacing and drawn-out transfers...
For the most part your answers here are either "we are brilliant because we do that already" or "are you mad? you know nothing!"
If you really want to change the way you do things you should start thinking "why not?" rather than "Yes... But...."
And you saying
| Quote: |
| What do you mean by “honest”. Roast Beef, Chips, etc, etc. You are going to a foreign country so you have to accept that their meals will be different. Not better or worst, just different. |
when you know nothing about me - my eating or holidaying habits - shows the depth of your listening powers...
Agenterre, spot on mate.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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stoatsbrother,
It seems that I have offended you. I honestly didn't mean to do that. But, my non-intention is no excuse for it and I am truly sorry for any offence I may have caused by my answer to you. It's really wasn’t meant, in any way, as I personal attack against you or the holidays you choose to take.
I understand that some people see web forums as a place they can be insulting with the bonus of hiding behind a screen. I don't (my name really is Wayne). So, again, hope you OK with this apology.
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Wayne, if you hang around on here much longer you're just going to get flamed by a bunch of people who know everything because they've been on holiday a couple of times. One wonders why they aren't all running their own tour operations given how obvious it is that any old monkey could do it.
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FAQ
I have never written or suggested that there is 'right way' to run a TO. My preceding para suggests the opposite -- that it should be 'run' based upon expectation and target markets. 
When TO charge £22 per person per night as a suppliment you just know you are getting taken for a ride. 