 Poster: A snowHead
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stevew, i kind of agree with you - seems illogical to tip someone who is self-employed but maybe that's because I am a tight ar5ed brit!
i highly doubt Canadian cat ski guides are paid as well as that
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Arno, by and large mountain guides choose to be mountain guides. If the pay wasn't enough then some of them would give up and go and do something else. That would reduce the availability of mountain guides and force people to pay more to hire the remaining guides.... i.e. demand/supply ensures that prices are right for hiring guides.
In fact, if anything you could argue that supply is artificially capped as it's difficult to become a mountain guide...which means prices should really be lower than they are and we should be able to pay less for our guiding services 
Surely the answer here is to go cat skiing in Japan. No tipping, no problems.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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ChrisWo, agreed that a fully cert UIAGM guide can make reasonable money but they are never going to be rich as a one man band
actually, in the US I think anyone can call themselves a "guide" so maybe perfect competition leads to crazy tipping? 
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| WayneC wrote: |
Simples...
If we all stopped leaving tips, the industry would have to price everything accordingly and pay decent wages and taxes...
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Who are "we"?
Oversea clients are only a small percentage of clients. Most North American clients WILL tip.
What it WILL do, which is already happening, is the guide will just keep on dropping "hints" on British clients to tip left and right, which is probably even MORE annoying!
What I feel is best, is holding the service to the highest standard and leave in no uncertain terms why you're NOT tipping to the "recommended" level. I was on a cruise with a very "international" client group. We had a little "conference" on how we plan to tip the day before last. One American, who did a lot of odd jobs in the past, was going to tip to the full amount, citing the tip will make the service staff happy. The rest of us all agree the guide and service staff was excellent but the mechanics wasn't (we had a mechanical problem lead to a minor detour). So we each left comments to that effect and left less than the recommended tip (the exact amount up to each client).
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Arno wrote: |
For the sake of argument, a fully qualified UIAGM guide will charge around £300 per day (some a little more, some less, plus you get peak fees in summer but let's keep it simple.) They will be very busy through Feb and March (for skiing) and July and August (for Alpinism); they will have a reasonable amount of work in Jan and April and maybe into May for ski touring. Late May/June will usually be quiet as will mid-Sep to Christmas week.
So, a guide will be doing pretty well if he works much more than 175 days a year. That's about £52.5k turnover so there will be costs to take out of this (eg new kit, insurance etc). This is a physically demanding, dangerous occupation and it takes about 6 years to get fully qualified. Not exactly over-paid IMV |
So what is stopping a guide getting a job for the other half of the year and making his/her salary up to £75k turnover.
Giving a tip is a polite way of saying thanks, the US etc system has twisted this in to something else, however if you ski in US you should tip accordingly, but the cat skiing tip imv should be related to the service of the individual operators and not for the whole 'cost' of the trip (which would mean one is tipping 15% for such things as the supply of diesel and the cost for buying the cat etc) which seems silly in the extreme.
One thing that confuses me in all of this, if i buy of $20 bottle of wine I have to tip $3, but if I get the same service for buying a $10,000 bottle of wine I am expected to tip $1.500  The system is flawed
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stevew, ditto. Hardly comparable with the pay of waiting staff and bell boys!
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A UIAGM guide is charged a lot for insurance (he takes responsibility for the lives and health of several clients at a time in dangerous terrain where in many cases nobody else is allowed to take them). There is also quite a high chance of dying on the job (for example the father of our regular guide, Zeb, fell to his death trying to help a client he was guiding up the Matterhorn).
It is also a physically demanding job (especially guiding climbers) so there is a limit to how long you can do it. You may be away from home quite a few weeks per year. Even if you are quite famous you don't earn much more, if anything.
For the level of expertise and responsibility it seems to me the pay is quite low (there is no such thing as a rich guide).
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| abc wrote: |
| But it seems those who live in country of no tipping culture is saying tipping is making a big fuss about the tip while happily paying their VAT on top of the displayed prices!!! |
But the only countries where VAT is not already included in the displayed price are in North America. It's called "sales tax" in the American states that charge it and "PST" and "GST" in Canada. Same thing as VAT. In those places, it is not included in the displayed price. In all of Europe, it is.
I therefore do not understand the argument you are trying to make, as the premise it is built on is false.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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There really are some terrible posts on this thread.
If you can't work out what / who needs tipping then you really are thick. I suggest killing yourself, if this is harsh make sure you don't have kids. If you already have kids please make sure they can't have kids - or NEVER let them work in a service industry.
In my experience the majority of UIAGM guides become guides because that is what they know. Their fathers, grandfathers etc etc. If you grow up in a [once] remote mountain area and the growing tourism needed servicing lots of people became guides to EARN money. Not so they can ski endless powder like all you retards think.
You're a bunch of Cyber Skiers, dreaming of snow.
| Cyber Skier wrote: |
| Oh, I don't see why we should tip the guides, they've got the best jobs in the world |
Looking after you idiots is very very hard work. Now pay up. 
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| parlor wrote: |
There really are some terrible posts on this thread.
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Yours being the worst.
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If you can't work out what / who needs tipping then you really are thick.
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Or just normal.
Most Brits won't have a clue about tiping when they go to North America, because the culture is just so different.
It isn't becaue they are "thick", it is because they have not been brought up in that environment.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Quote: |
Most Brits won't have a clue about tiping when they go to North America, because the culture is just so different.
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If that's the question, it's been answered.
But that wasn't the point of this thread. The openning post was to blast of that "culture", by saying guides have such dream job they shouldn't expect to be paid as much (whatever that "much" is).
Americans are constantly critisized for bringing their "attitude" to forign country with no regard to the local culture. But I now see where that "attitude" originally comes from...
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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[quote="abc"]
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Americans are constantly critisized for bringing their "attitude" to forign country with no regard to the local culture. But I now see where that "attitude" originally comes from... |
Damn straight - who do you think invented America/Canuckistan & cultural/literal imperialism? But try putting a Merkin in his/her place these days - no respect for their betters 
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| abc wrote: |
| Quote: |
Most Brits won't have a clue about tiping when they go to North America, because the culture is just so different.
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If that's the question, it's been answered.
But that wasn't the point of this thread. The openning post was to blast of that "culture", by saying guides have such dream job they shouldn't expect to be paid as much (whatever that "much" is).
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That's true.
I had forgotten what the original post actually said.
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You know it makes sense.
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alex_heney, see. Wrapped up in yourself, just 3 pages in and you can't remember what you were typing about in the first place. Maybe you need to read more, write less... Or perhaps you're just getting old? Try this.
Ohh and I call BS on your other post. I was 'brought up' in England. And when appropriate I remembered by parents 'tipping' people, dustbin men, postman (X-Mas), hair dressers... etc etc
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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parlor, I assumed people still did that (It's what Boxing day means) - I do.
Mind you, I've never tipped a gas station attendant - which I gather they do in the US.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| snowball wrote: |
parlor, I assumed people still did that (It's what Boxing day means) - I do.
Mind you, I've never tipped a gas station attendant - which I gather they do in the US. |
If they fill up your car AND wash your screen, yes, you tip. Otherwise just go to the self service and save yourself the dollar or two. It's really not that hard.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Wow
parlor = teh tipping czar
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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parlor probably is the Fagin of the pikeys who wash your screen with wee wee in a bucket if you stop at the wrong traffic lights
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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fatbob, as you know, I in fact run a gang of pikeys who wash screens. Inter alia.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| parlor wrote: |
alex_heney, see. Wrapped up in yourself, just 3 pages in and you can't remember what you were typing about in the first place. Maybe you need to read more, write less... Or perhaps you're just getting old? Try this.
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Utter rubbish
I didn't remember just what somebody else had written three pages ago.
I knew perfectly well what I had been typing about in the first place.
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Ohh and I call BS on your other post. I was 'brought up' in England. And when appropriate I remembered by parents 'tipping' people, dustbin men, postman (X-Mas), hair dressers... etc etc
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Is that supposed to have some relevance?
The fact that people in the UK have tipped in the past (and still do) certainly does NOT mean they understand the culture where it is very strongly expected that a lot more people will be tipped, and in significantly larger amounts.
And you may only remember your parents doing that, but I still do so.
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alex_heney, seriously? Hahahahhaaaaaa.
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| parlor wrote: |
If they fill up your car AND wash your screen, yes, you tip. Otherwise just go to the self service and save yourself the dollar or two. It's really not that hard. |
Oh right, they don't always tip - that isn't what I was told. (I have never driven in the US/Canada.) There are only a few very remote rural places in Britain where petrol pumps are not self-service so it never occurred to me they might not be, in an technically advanced continent like North America. As far as I can remember I have only had my windscreen washed at traffic lights against my will - and there many people seem to go by the principle that if they had time to say no before it started they don't feel they have to pay but if they were caught by surprise, so didn't say no, they do.
There are many situations in England when you need to use judgement and know what is normal. For example in a B & B if someone shows you to your room - even if they carry your bag, it is not normal to tip, but in a posh hotel it is expected - so there is a point between the two which constitutes social judgement. I was taught by my parents to tip in hotels if the person is an employee - but that to tip the owner was an insult - as when Bruchner tried to tip the conductor of his first symphony (this unintended insult marked him as a country bumpkin- though the gift of a case of fine wine would no doubt have been appreciated). A money tip to a senior employee might also be an insult, unless it was very large and for a specific exceptional service since it would suggest he wasn't a gentleman. Basically it was all to do with class.
Now people in this country seem tip for fewer and fewer services (do you tip staff in hotels when you go skiing? For example the people who cleaned your room during your stay in a hotel as my parents did?). But there is now no uniformity of assumptions, which ends up (as seen in this thread) with some people tipping European guides and some not. So it is hardly surprising that people don't know what is expected in another continent - until someone tells them.
However I seem to have gone enormously off-topic.
Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Thu 27-08-09 11:32; edited 1 time in total
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May be a little off topic (but not that far) but last weekend me and Mrs Wayne went to watch a show in London and had a meal in Leicester Square afterwards. We ordered something off the menu then when the bill came we notice that a "service" charge had been added (15%). Grrrrrrrr. I would have tipped em but didn't due this.
Anyway I queried the extra charge (which I think made them really happy as they called the manager  ) and they pointed out that details of the 15% were printed in the menu so it was OK. Hmmmmm. Luckily Mrs Wayne is a lawyer and pointed out to them that simply printing something does not make it a condition of sale - that "must" bring it your attention apparently.
Anyway I told em I wasn't going to pay it. And didn't.
But then - to make myself not feel too much like a skinflint, bought a Big Issue for the same as 15% of the meal bill, which the guy selling them thought was great BTW.
So I don't think you should be forced, either by social convention or printed "stuff" to tip (even if it's called a service charge). If you want to tip people, fine, tip away, if not then don't.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Wayne, more annoying is when service is added to the bill but is not labeled as such - hoping, no doubt, that you will tip as well.
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| snowball wrote: |
| Wayne, more annoying is when service is added to the bill but is not labeled as such - hoping, no doubt, that you will tip as well. |
That is illegal in the UK.
It is also illegal to make a "service charge" compulsory.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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alex_heney, they get around that by stating that 'a discrentionary x% will be added to your bill'. Yes you could ask for it to be removed but I doubt that has ever happened.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Actually it is probabaly best to ask for the service charge to be removed and pay the same amount as a tip in cash - more likely that the staff will get it then ')
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| NomadicBoo wrote: |
| alex_heney, they get around that by stating that 'a discrentionary x% will be added to your bill'. Yes you could ask for it to be removed but I doubt that has ever happened. |
It certainly has.
I have been in a party where we received really poor service, and we resfused to pay it.
I haven't done it when eating out by myself or with any other group, but I would if circumstances warranted, and I know of others who have done so.
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You know it makes sense.
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| rayscoops wrote: |
| Actually it is probabaly best to ask for the service charge to be removed and pay the same amount as a tip in cash - more likely that the staff will get it then ') |
I normally tip as cash. I did ask the waiter once if the staff actually got the tip on the bill; he said they did, so I paid it. Otherwise I was going to do just that.
DJ
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| alex_heney wrote: |
| , they get around that by stating that 'a discrentionary x% will be added to your bill'. Yes you could ask for it to be removed but I doubt that has ever happened. |
That’s exactly what we did
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Poster: A snowHead
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A group of us got treated very badly in a London Restaurant many years ago and left a derisory tip - the waiter followed us out of the restaurant to tell us service was not included - to which my mate said "No - it wasn't - was it..." - Waiter disappeared.
I did get a bill reduced and an apology once by writing a cheque with added on the bottom line "for an appalling meal served badly".
Back to Guides - I think it does need to be more explicit - and a fixed percentage idea for US guides is just silly.
I don't mind tipping well for service when the personal element is just one element of what you are paying for via the bill - eg bill includes food costs/premises/kitchen staff costs. I do when the when the bill is already really only about the costs of the person you are tipping.
Lastly - there is a recession on and if businesses want our custom - they may need to alter the expectations they and their staff have.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Quote: |
Lastly - there is a recession on and if businesses want our custom - they may need to alter the expectations they and their staff have.
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It's neither compulsory nor fixed. The closest description of it is "CUSTOMARY"!
So, the majority of customers are paying 15%. If you tip less, it's either: 1) you're dissatisfied with the service or, 2) you're cheap.
Such is the "custom". If you don't like a forign custom, you can choose: 1) when in Rome, do as ...; 2) stay home; 3) not follow the custom and be an arrogant forigner.
In the latter 2 case, you can also whine as much as you like amoungst your own countrymen. But you know perfectly well that forign custom isn't going to change because of your whining at a distance.
NOTE:
If you were not aware of it ahead of time, AND felt the added cost make the 'package' too expensive for the value receive. You may bring it to the attention of the management and tell them you wouldn't have booked had you been aware of the extra cost. You're right to not tip in such case.
But that's not what this thread about. This is a whinning thread and some are still trying to justify the whine.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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OFFS!
Are we talking about the package or the people?
You don't tip the company, you tip the individuals who have provided the service. You stay in a chalet and you get great service from one part of the staff and not from the other you either have a word with management or you sort it on an individual basis. The OP is implying that he thinks that a gratuity is expected on the price of the complete contract . . . patently absurd and if not it's not a company he should be giving money to. Why ask us when he can just as easily get more information by asking the company to clarify the statement.
'cos he's got nowt here 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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[quote="abc"]
| Quote: |
This is a whinning thread. |
Which is much better than a lhosing thread?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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abc, that was a point about business in general - rather than the OP. I guess.
For the record I expect to tip 17.5 % in US restaurants.
I don't think this is a whining thread - more about cultural expectations.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Masque, does that mean you got the gig at nixmap's gaff?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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of course if the North Americans simply paid a decent days pay for a decent days work then we would not be discussing this
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Round and round we go again...
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FAQ
looooootttts of snowtime 
Think 200"+ of powder 