 Poster: A snowHead
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In my experience the "me time" at the expense of the children comes from "me" parents and not the "we" families.
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What twoddle. can we put this into perspective please? My daughter goes to creche for three hours a day, 12 days a year. What do you find so wrong with that?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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the other forums you visit "technical" ones? i.e. dedicated to specific fairly limited areas, with general discussion discouraged?
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Not especially. General stuff and techie forums. The issue is that if you click on a topic you generally expect to get a set of responses which relate to that stated topic. In that way you can use the forum to build on your knowledge or understanding of the subject. If, on the other hand, threads spread onto other topics then they become less useful for the un-engaged user since they would have to read through the trail of comments in order to understand where the topic was heading. In that way SH is more like a conversation in a pub where as it could function as more as a debating/discussion forum which is how forums are normally designed hence the usage of topics and threads. As I've said before, I'm adding to this simply by discussing this here in a thread about a First Choice holiday!!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Pam Ayres put me off poetry, but Larkin was spot on.
Now is that a thread drift too far??? 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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My daughter goes to creche for three hours a day, 12 days a year. What do you find so wrong with that?
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Nothing. I have not said that there is anything wrong with that at all if that is what you want to do, fine. Other people do other things.
There has been loads of discussion on here over this. Some people agree others don't.
When my children were younger I didn't leave them in a creche - if you feel in some way that makes me weird I can't really argue back, can I?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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[quote="HH"]
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In my experience the "me time" at the expense of the children comes from "me" parents and not the "we" families.
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If you were just stating what arrangement you do or dont have for childcare on holiday then I wouldn't have a problem. The problem arises as you are making a judgement on those who use a creche ("me time" = "me" parents). Rubbish, you have no idea what kind of a Mum I am.
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In my experience the "me time" at the expense of the children comes from "me" parents and not the "we" families.
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The words "in my experience" are pretty important here are they not?
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Furthermore, HH, you were the one who thought you knwew what my feelings were when you said:
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. . . you begrudge your missed years of skiing when so many others managed to find a happy medium.
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. . . in the same way that I have no idea what kind of a Mum you are how can you believe you know what my thoughts are about a few years not skiing? You seem happy to judge others without knowing a thing about them.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| johnnyh wrote: |
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In my experience the "me time" at the expense of the children comes from "me" parents and not the "we" families.
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The words "in my experience" are pretty important here are they not? |
They are.
You appear to be judging others by your own standards and experience.
That`s what perceived to be objectionable.
I apologise if I have misunderstood what you are saying.
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jonty, roughly what I was about to try and type but much better put!
I'll get back in my box now...
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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jonty, indeed you have misunderstood. In my experience the various families I've met who literally dumped their kids during ski holidays were truely awful. That is my experience. That's all I've implied. Whereas HH seems to have decided she has a far greater understanding of my own feelings and emotions even though she has never met with me. That is, in your words, rather objectionable to me.
If you are saying that even though I have personal experience of something I am in someway not entitled to form an opinion or indeed that that opinion is not welcome then I am not certain where that leaves my input into this discussion.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I wouldn't mind but actually it was bar shaker and Skisuit who actually began this position questioning childcare. May I remind you that -
bar shaker wrote:
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I am stunned that people expect to take kids away, leave them with 'whoever' and they then complain when it goes wrong.
Kids are for taking on a holiday that you will have with them, or for not having.
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Not me!!
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You know it makes sense.
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Personally I can take children, or leave them, or ideally take them and leave them. I have no compunction about leaving my 18 month old daughter in creche, it was no different to her going to nursery every day at home, except that her parents are home earlier on a ski trip. When she was older she has done half day ski school, half day Whizz Kids or whatever and is quite often happier in club than ski school and shows no interest in spending quality time with her dad if she can be in club with other kids. Now she is in all day ski school for 5 days and reminisces about the good old days when she got to go to club. I wonder if she will ever truly get the bug. Her brother on the other hand has been in all day ski school since age 4 and has survived the worst that ESF can throw at him. What doesn't kill you makes you ski harder, or, as he at age 9 says " Dad, I was born ready". Feel free to to choose to be a completely full time no child care parent, but bar shaker's comment WAS a ridiculous generalisation. So there 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| johnnyh wrote: |
jonty, indeed you have misunderstood. In my experience the various families I've met who literally dumped their kids during ski holidays were truely awful. That is my experience. That's all I've implied. Whereas HH seems to have decided she has a far greater understanding of my own feelings and emotions even though she has never met with me. That is, in your words, rather objectionable to me.
If you are saying that even though I have personal experience of something I am in someway not entitled to form an opinion or indeed that that opinion is not welcome then I am not certain where that leaves my input into this discussion. |
There are some people who `abandon` or dump their kids. I completely agree that they can be pretty awful. But I think (hope ?) that that`s a desert island example. It`s an extreme. Most people don`t behave like that. If someone decides to put their child in a creche or leave the child with a TO nanny for a few hours/day, that seems to me to be perfectly reasonable (and no-one else`s business, quite frankly). To suggest that in so doing they are guilty of child neglect and/or bad parenting is twaddle.
I don`t think you are saying that. However, there are a couple of santimonius b*ggers on the forum who are !
For what it`s worth, I don`t think HH does claim to have a greater understanding of your feelings than you do. I suspect that she, like me, got the impression that you were jumping on the `good parenting means never leaving your children with others` bandwagon.
If you have personal experience of something then of course you are entitled to form, and indeed express, that opinion. It is, after all, a public forum. But if you express an opinion about something as emotive as parenting, then you may be asked to justify it. In fact, in my experience, the most innocuous comments (`Haile G is the greatest distance runner of all time`) will often prompt a torrent of disagreement, criticism and sometimes abuse (have a look at the Letsrun forum for some very full and frank exchanges of view).
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Poster: A snowHead
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| johnnyh wrote: |
I wouldn't mind but actually it was bar shaker and Skisuit who actually began this position questioning childcare. May I remind you that -
bar shaker wrote:
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I am stunned that people expect to take kids away, leave them with 'whoever' and they then complain when it goes wrong.
Kids are for taking on a holiday that you will have with them, or for not having.
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Not me!! |
You`re quite right and I shouldn`t have lumped you together.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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. . . the impression that you were jumping on the `good parenting means never leaving your children with others` bandwagon.
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I doubt I would have willingly given that impression. I do believe some people (as parents) consider they have a "right to holiday (with no hassle from their own children)". I think this happens a lot on skiiing trips and sadly I have experienced those people on more than once. Our children both go to ski school now so we do not see them for a few hours.
But I do have a friend who has just had a baby and in his view he is still going skiing regardless (leaving all childcare to others and also trying to coerce some people to step in and sort it out on his behalf) and I think that is where I might question things. It seems that some people become parents but do not really want "to parent" when it gets in the way of doing the things they did before they had children. I do feel strongly about personal responsibility and in that sense I think if you can't sort out child care, then perhaps that means you can't go. Whereas my friend for example would chose "any care" rather than miss out on his holiday.
I'm sure the children aren't badly effected by being left. They pretty much don't know the difference.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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If I had no regard for my children then believe me I would be out there skiing all day, every day of my holiday but I dont, I allow myself a compromise and get 2 and a half hours skiing a day. The rest of the time is spent with my children. I assume bar shaker and skisuit know when to shut up...
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| stoatsbrother wrote: |
| HH, For the future - can I suggest the US or Canada? |
I'll second that. We had very good results in Banff (6 years of creche and ski school) and Mammoth (1 year of creche). In both cases the creche is slopeside, so easy access at any time, and both offered one or two hours a day lessons, on their own slope initially, if required (by the kid!).
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| richmond wrote: |
| stoatsbrother wrote: |
| HH, For the future - can I suggest the US or Canada? |
I'll second that. We had very good results in Banff (6 years of creche and ski school) and Mammoth (1 year of creche). In both cases the creche is slopeside, so easy access at any time, and both offered one or two hours a day lessons, on their own slope initially, if required (by the kid!). |
Unfortunately, since having my first daughter I have become scared of flying (...they F**k you up your....oops wrong way round) and can only do short haul because I'm a bag of nerves and think might seriously lose it on a longer flight. Great shame as I lived out in the States for a year when I was 20 so am gutted can't go back there. 
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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johnnyh
Sorry, forgot to give you a  after that last comment.
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Call me old fashioned but What are Grand parents for? Take the kids and the Grand parents or leave them both behind. Or if you feel guilty wait till they get to the grand old age of Three and they can go to ski School like the rest of us. If none of the above try skiing holidays for the boy's or girl's and take the kid's to Disney.
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| clive5 wrote: |
| Call me old fashioned but What are Grand parents for? Take the kids and the Grand parents or leave them both behind. |
Clive, you're old-fashioned.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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To avoid leaving my kids in the care of other, I've decided that I'll leave them at home alone. That's ok isn't it 
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Boris, I have not got a problem with that as mine are 18 and 22 years old.
Higs, Call me what you want it's the best child care you can get 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| clive5 wrote: |
Higs, Call me what you want it's the best child care you can get |
I don't doubt it but it's not an option for us (due to disablity/death). So your other option for us would be to stay at home. I'm not having that.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Higs, What about taking your siblings ? Or who looks after your children midweek?
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| HH wrote: |
| richmond wrote: |
| stoatsbrother wrote: |
| HH, For the future - can I suggest the US or Canada? |
I'll second that. We had very good results in Banff (6 years of creche and ski school) and Mammoth (1 year of creche). In both cases the creche is slopeside, so easy access at any time, and both offered one or two hours a day lessons, on their own slope initially, if required (by the kid!). |
Unfortunately, since having my first daughter I have become scared of flying (...they F**k you up your....oops wrong way round) and can only do short haul because I'm a bag of nerves and think might seriously lose it on a longer flight. Great shame as I lived out in the States for a year when I was 20 so am gutted can't go back there. |
Have you considered one of those `fear of flying` courses ? They can be very effective. A friend of our`s went on one - you now can`t get her off a bl**dy plane.
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You know it makes sense.
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| clive5 wrote: |
| Higs, What about taking your siblings ? Or who looks after your children midweek? |
Well the siblings all have their own kids (and their own lives to lead). And they're now looked after midweek by either school or us.
We did go on one skiing hol with my brother and family. In fact, if we hadn't gone with them, we wouldn't have been able to fly - more infants than adults! Sadly my wife had a bad cold most of the week so actually did look after the kids a fair bit of the time.
Even if parents or siblings were available though I don't necessarily think that they would be better than the excellent childcare we've had on skiing holidays. Most recently (last Easter and this New Year) we've been to Le Grand Bornand. After ski school the kids went to the Mom'En Ski club for lunch and the activities until 2ish. They loved it and it was a struggle every day to get them to leave. Kids like playing with other kids. It's part of the holiday for the kids, along with ski school, skiing with mummy & daddy after we pick them up and the other stuff we did in the afternoons and evening.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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clive5, some of us like being with our kids - even if sometimes they spend a few hours a day away from us rather than missing a whole holiday with us. And they get to meet interesting foreign bacteria...
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Poster: A snowHead
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Jeez, this thread has gone bonkers in my absence!
Is this a good time to mention that I'm taking two of my sisters and my two nephews and two nieces for a trip to Center Parcs next week? Yes, I'm undergoing this willingly although I may regret this decision afterwards! 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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queen bodecia, sounds like HH needs to take you on his/her next ski hol.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| johnnyh wrote: |
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. . . the impression that you were jumping on the `good parenting means never leaving your children with others` bandwagon.
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I doubt I would have willingly given that impression. I do believe some people (as parents) consider they have a "right to holiday (with no hassle from their own children)". I think this happens a lot on skiiing trips and sadly I have experienced those people on more than once. Our children both go to ski school now so we do not see them for a few hours.
But I do have a friend who has just had a baby and in his view he is still going skiing regardless (leaving all childcare to others and also trying to coerce some people to step in and sort it out on his behalf) and I think that is where I might question things. It seems that some people become parents but do not really want "to parent" when it gets in the way of doing the things they did before they had children. I do feel strongly about personal responsibility and in that sense I think if you can't sort out child care, then perhaps that means you can't go. Whereas my friend for example would chose "any care" rather than miss out on his holiday.
I'm sure the children aren't badly effected by being left. They pretty much don't know the difference. |
Exactly Johnny and my friends who live their lives like that tell me that their kids enjoy the creche and they would know if they didn't enjoy it. The coercion of the kids in the morning to get them to go to the creche, rather than spend the day with their parents, is quickly forgotten.
Everyone to their own but as I couldn't afford a nanny when my daughter was young, I missed a few years.
My thoughts are that you either decide to have kids and recognise how it will change your life, if you take having kids seriously, or you don't have kids.
Reading this thread and others, though, has given me a great business idea. I have thought of starting creches at Gatwick and Stansted where you could drop your kids off and then pick them up 7 days later, having thoroughly enjoyed your holiday and not been inconvenienced with sorting out resort child care. Each child would have unlimited access to paper, paints and crayons, unlimited repeats of Teletubbies and be looked after by a Phillapeno lady (ratio of 1:20) who will almost earn minimum wage when tips are taken into account. Best of all, each child's cage would be fully heated. Market research tells me it would be a winner.
Don't take me too seriously but don't complain when you have to look after your kids or when looking after them is a chore. Kids are all about making sacrifices and if you can't bear to make the sacrifices, you shouldn't have the kids.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| bar shaker wrote: |
| My thoughts are that you either decide to have kids and recognise how it will change your life, if you take having kids seriously, |
And taking having kids seriously prevents you from using a creche, does it?
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| Each child would ... be looked after by a Phillapeno lady |
Good idea. Perhaps they'd grow up able to spell Filipina.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| bar shaker wrote: |
Don't take me too seriously but don't complain when you have to look after your kids or when looking after them is a chore. Kids are all about making sacrifices and if you can't bear to make the sacrifices, you shouldn't have the kids. |
The issue was not that she had to make sacrifices, but rather that she did not get what she had been promised, and additional sacrifices were necessary as a result of the broken promises.
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Have you considered one of those `fear of flying` courses ? They can be very effective. A friend of our`s went on one - you now can`t get her off a bl**dy plane.
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Yes, I have considered this but they take you out on a forty minute flight and just thought I couldn't get through it without the thought of being able to ski at the end of it! I do actually fly for around 3 to 4 hols a year, so I dont let it beat me, I thought that maybe I'd found my own coping mechanism but if your friend is really happy to fly then maybe I should re-consider it. I thought it would just help me "cope" and I'm already doing that. To fly without anxiety would be great.
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I found that anything involving kids instantly became unpredictable. It was either part of the fun or part of the chore.
I looked the f/ph word up on Google as well. That'll learn me.
Yes it was about FC, lets get back to that.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Don't take me too seriously but don't complain when you have to look after your kids or when looking after them is a chore. Kids are all about making sacrifices and if you can't bear to make the sacrifices, you shouldn't have the kids.
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I do make sacrifices, and I am greatly rewarded for them because my children are my world. But I don't see a problem with putting her in a creche for 36 hours a year, thats out of a total 8736 hours a year.
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| bar shaker wrote: |
| Kids are all about making sacrifices .... |
I pity your children.
My kids are about so much more than 'making sacrifices'. Why do you resent yours so much?
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