 Poster: A snowHead
|
|
little tiger, does it really matter if people have different definitions of the words "amateur" and "professional"?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
|
rob@rar, not a full cert - level 2... which in PSIA is not ISIA level ... she tried for years to make APSI 2 (ISIA level) but could never get close AIUI... if you saw her talking to folks around the resort she was the best instructor around... (personally I think she sucked - poor teaching and worse skiing skills)
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
rob@rar, seems to to ISIA IVSI - they made two organisations to deal with two different groups who do the same job but are divided by being professional or amateur...
I just find the concept that someone will decide that because a person is a "coach" not an "instructor" they are "amateur" is quite insulting to the folks I know who are full-time coaches and damn good at it!
I'll take a CSCF 3-4 over a BASI 1 any day - even if BASI says the "coaches" are amateurs and their level 1's are "professional" (this assumes I know nothing else about the person)...
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
little tiger, you're using the word "amateur" to indicate a low quality of teaching/coaching. That's not how I use the word. For me it's more about employment status or type of organisation you are working for, not about how good you are at something.
I've never thought that the best instructors or coaches had much of a problem with fragile egos (the very opposite in fact  ), but from this thread it seems that we need to be careful about how we describe some people and who we compare them to!
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
rob@rar, the problem stems from using a word with many different meanings...
| Quote: |
| Given the limitations of doing something as an amateur, it is not surprising that the word is soon after recorded in the disparaging sense we still use to refer to someone who lacks professional skill or ease in performance. |
and again because the person is labelled "coach" not "instructor"... what makes my old instructor an amateur when he is coaching a provincial team in Canada but professional when he is teaching me (to do a stem christie again at one point) in Australia? that is farcical... he is doing the same thing... teaching people to ski better! In fact in his "professional" job in Australia he sometimes just dragged a severely disabled skier around in a sitski (the kid had very little movement at all - and was large so most folks could not handle him - oh and he had a temper issue IIRC)... othertimes he was coaching a club - run by the ski school! (Ski schools at home have a lot of clubs associated with race dept)
Yep just checked and Falls Creek Race Club will cost you $2500 for 32 days ... the full time program is $4500 without including any tutoring costs (these kids are usually part of the academy that is school and training)... the coaches are not working for free or part-time... it is still a "club"
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
| little tiger wrote: |
rob@rar, the problem stems from using a word with many different meanings...
|
Agreed, so all the more reason not to take offence when people use words which can carry different meanings.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
little tiger, it's just a difference in terminology that comes about from the European system of ski teaching. It's not intended to diminish the professionalism or competence of race coaches. In Europe it's ski instructing which is generally like the N.American ski teaching system ie customers from the paying public. In Europe ski racing is generally aimed at members of a club coached by full-time and part-time, paid and unpaid, qualified and unqualified coaches, for the large majority of whom ski related activities are not intended to be their main source of income, no matter whether they have previous experience on the WC circuit or not. These guys are defined as amateurs but not in a perjorative sense. Increasingly though there is race training available to the paying public, who want a highly qualified coach who regards himself as a professional, so imo the distinction is becoming outmoded and inaccurate.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
little tiger, I think you're getting all tangled up here. And in any case it's not really the point. Here the local club mostly has trainers from the ESF so it's a non-issue. clearly it all varies.
rob@rar, PSIA 3 isn't fully qualified since it's ISIA without the knobs evidently! 
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
| easiski wrote: |
| rob@rar, PSIA 3 isn't fully qualified since it's ISIA without the knobs evidently! |
I think the same applies to CSIA 3 as well.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
|
little tiger, If a coach is working with a WC skier, that skier is most likley professional, so I guess the coach is also a professional?
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
| easiski wrote: |
One thing that I would say though, is that when I had my Grade 3 and went off to work in Wengen I was so pleased with myself and thought I really knew it all (I was 20), now, looking back, I'm horrified that the ski school asked people to pay for me teaching them. I realise how very little I did know.  Bearing in mind as well that I'd skied all my life and done the racing bit etc. |
The minimum that I would like to see teach in an Alpine environment is ISIA. That would mean the Swiss and other countries upping their threshold, and the French and others lowering theirs. Lower level qualifications could work on artificial slopes and under some form of direction from a fully qualified instructor in an alpine environment; economically this would be probably be during peak periods to mop up extra demand.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
slikedges, I hope so... because that Italian has been talking about setting up coaching... with another guy who has been very successful on the WC... if they are expected to do it for free just because they are coaches not instructors it would be very silly! Where they come from the main source of income is "tourists" of some form... and for 6 months of the year that means skiers of some sort... I guess they could run hotels or bars... but they seem to enjoy teaching - I'd hate to see them driven off because they cannot make money as "coaches"...
slikedges, but it is only here I have heard it that way (that coaches are amateur)... the ski school at home is populated with Austrians/Czechs/Germans/Italians/Canadians... none have used coach to refer to part-time or amateur people when I am talking to them... I've always heard coaches mentioned as I described... Especially the Czechs... I remember one of them explaining he had been a coach and was a bit taken aback at being made to work his way up again...
As I said - the coaches are the more respected... the instructors more likely to be part-time/seasonal workers... the coaches all travel and do 2 seasons...
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
|
little tiger, in Europe "coaches" and "instructors" is just as ambiguous as "amateurs" and professions". I think it's best if you don't put too much meaning on the labels and just look to what actual qualifications and experience people have, and what they do with it.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
|
rob@rar,I think artificial slopes are mostly a UK thing though? so that would mean they would all have to work in UK?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
|
gilleski, but by your definition if the coach works for the WC skiers club he is amateur? This is why that definition is so hard to fathom... Simply working with a club makes you not professional
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
| little tiger wrote: |
| rob@rar,I think artificial slopes are mostly a UK thing though? |
There are some in Europe (indoor & plastic) but I've no idea how many. Partly qualified instructors could work alongside fully qualified instructors (for a lower rate of pay) while they train towards their ISIA level qualification.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
Whether you're part-time or full time, is quite often a lifestyle or career desision and should not have any bearing on whether you're a good or bad instructor.
I choose to teach skiing part-time rather than full-time, for a number of reasons, mainly the fact that I have a wife, family, dog, mortgage and the fact that I really enjoy my profession, to which extent I am probably the best in the world at what I do.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
I think we have found the reason for maybe some misunderstandings on this thread. Its already been mentioned, here is my take.
Amateur for me is not a derogatory term meaning low level, bungling amateur and all that. Its about the MO of the user. In skiing, though the IVSI coaches / instructors standards match that of ISIA. They are very much "professionally" trained to a high level. However, a ski team is not a commercial operation. That's to say no one person makes a profit and dividends are not distributed.
Ski instructors (professionals) and some coaches operating as amateurs do appear to be doing the same job. Now, if you look at the foundation of these people, one is working in the tourist industry normally with holiday makers (the ski instructor) and one works in the development of sport in our (their) communities, oftern as an amateur.
I am a professional ski teacher, holding professional qualifications,you can pay me for lessons. I am also a coach and member of IVSI and have worked in the development of young people in my community for no profit making organisation (clubs) as an amateur.
UK athletics is a perfect example of amateur sport to a very high level
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
|
Spyderman, but coaches being "amateur" is the excuse being used to Luca of how his students can be coaches already... ie they do not need to be good they are "only" coaches...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| rob@rar wrote: |
| Partly qualified instructors could work alongside fully qualified instructors (for a lower rate of pay) while they train towards their ISIA level qualification. |
But that risks getting into the experience catch 22 though? From what I can see, and from your blog, it's the coal-face experience on your own that a) gives you the tricks in your instructing toolbox and b) sets the higher level instructors apart from the lower levels, so how does that experience come about if lower levels are not let loose on their own? Or are you suggesting that ISIA should be the "driving test" level where instructors are allowed out on their own for the first time? But then why the requirement for experience of teaching "in anger" for that level? Why have 3 levels at all?
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
gilleski, but the resorts here make very good profits from their "clubs"... see the prices I quoted above ... multiply by x number of members... Each coach will still be paid the maximum rate of $30/hr (or a bit more for coaches maybe) for their time ... AIUI the resorts make good money from these things... naming it a "club" does not necessarily make it not-for-profit...
The coaching those Italians intend to do will be very much for profit I would think... that is the reason for doing it surely... to cash in on the WC success a bit after retirement?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| eng_ch wrote: |
| But that risks getting into the experience catch 22 though? From what I can see, and from your blog, it's the coal-face experience on your own that a) gives you the tricks in your instructing toolbox and b) sets the higher level instructors apart from the lower levels, so how does that experience come about if lower levels are not let loose on their own? Or are you suggesting that ISIA should be the "driving test" level where instructors are allowed out on their own for the first time? But then why the requirement for experience of teaching "in anger" for that level? Why have 3 levels at all? |
If I ruled the world I would change L1 back into a (non-assessed) foundation week, make L2 an Assistant Instructor course and enable them to earn some money while they worked alongside fully qualified instructors (ISIA = Instructor; ISTD = Chartered Instructor or similar). Assistant Instructors would teach, but under the broad direction of a qualified instructor (eg working with individuals within a group of clients, doing demos, etc), so they would gain real teach experience for which they would be paid which for some would subsidise the cost of training to become fully qualified. This is all fantasy of course, because I don't think the economics of ski schools would bear the cost of a partly qualified and fully qualified instructor working with the same group of clients.
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
|
gilleski, so IVSI would effectively be non-profit/pro bono and ISIA pertains to commercial transactions?
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
rob@rar, I was thinking of some of those ESF classes - they seem huge...
but yes I seem to recall one class in Oz of around 16.... and instructor suitably peeved.... They will not turn folks away... if they run out of instructors... the classes are larger...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| little tiger wrote: |
rob@rar, I was thinking of some of those ESF classes - they seem huge...
|
I haven't been in an ESF class for more than 20 years, but I can't recall seeing one with more than 12 clients at a time.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
rob@rar, I don't think I've seen a beginner class of less than 10 at home... they send off pretty damn big groups....
Hence my distaste for group lessons... even the "advanced" groups are often 6-8...
They do have special advanced skiers only groups that are maximum of 3... but many folks never ski well enough to take them...
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
eng_ch, Spot on! ISIA ski schools and profit making business and the staff that work in them. IVSI look after the interests of instructors and coaches working with groups, clubs and organisations.
The national ski instructors association (BASI in UK) will be members of ISIA, and the governing body for skiing (Snowsport England in England) are membersof IVSI. Same in France and Austria. When you train and qualify as a coach in Austria, its not with the ski instructors organisation, its with OSV the governing body. Also, in terms of technical levels the Austrian B trainer (they have D,C,B and A is by invitation) qualification would be harded than the BASI ISTD.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
gilleski, so would that mean that the race training that little tiger is referring to would actually fall under the auspices of ISIA rather than IVSI because they're running them as a commercial operation? That could explain some of the confusion
rob@rar, I follow your thinking. It's interesting as my own profession has just recently been awarded a charter in the UK and there is something of an ongoing debate as to whether the costs involved in obtaining chartered status (which are not insignificant) are worthwhile when you already have 15 or 20 years' fully-qualified professional experience; whether being chartered would justify increased pricing or end up pricing those with chartered status out of the market; who is actually going to sit in judgement on the chartering panel; whether chartered status in the UK is equivalent to sworn status in other countries etc etc so there are some parallels
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
|
eng_ch, no many of those coaches are austrian - and gilleski says they are therefore NOT registered through ISIA... (in fact the ski school I listed was run by an austrian until very recently and the aussie runnning it now is a staatliche.... we are austrian obsessed here...)
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
FAQ
