 Poster: A snowHead
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| snowbunny wrote: |
| DB wrote: |
| Lots of foreign workers do anyway, so nothing new there, along with missing lights, no insurance etc. |
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but the fact remains that our authorities do consider those things to be illegal. That they can't/don't enforce the law is a different matter.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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DB, What "I" think about paying the price for a whole new set of tyres for a 1 week trip because Austria made a new law is irrelevant. Folks out there in the real world will look at the relevant costs of driving to different resorts in different european countries and make a cost based decision. If there are less tourists and no accidents it will likely be called a success.
Switzerland has not legislated against foreign visitors arriving in cars in the same way.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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peura, I find my snow chains. can be traded in and exchanged. However I'm unable to find a manufacturers' recommended snow tyre for my car, however a set of regular tyres will cost around £400 plus fitting. For my OH with an all-wheel drive Subaru, life would be further complicated by needing to buy another smaller set of wheels+ the snow tyres now required+ warranty issues with Subaru +insurance issues which would arise from using non-standard wheels and tyres, all because there is insufficient space within the wheel arch for a larger profile tyre. With that tally, I'm guessing that a week in Whistler B.C would look like a bargain by comparison to say, a week in a b&b in Mayrhofen. Maybe some British holidaymakers will fly, then again what about all the traditional visitors from the european mainland who prefer to drive, and would not contemplate flying within the continent?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| snowbunny wrote: |
| DB, What "I" think about paying the price for a whole new set of tyres for a 1 week trip because Austria made a new law is irrelevant. |
It appears that the cost to you and not the safety of others is all you think about.
| snowbunny wrote: |
| Folks out there in the real world will look at the relevant costs of driving to different resorts in different european countries and make a cost based decision. If there are less tourists and no accidents it will likely be called a success. |
Ever driven through a proper winter storm where roads have ben shut, cars are on their roofs? Ever seen mass pile ups caused by vehicles with summer tyres? Ever seen a fully laden car try to accerlerate from the lights and just slip sideways off the road into a position wher getting chains on was impossible? That's the real world here in Austria.
| snowbunny wrote: |
| Switzerland has not legislated against foreign visitors arriving in cars in the same way. |
According to this rental cars in Switzerland require winter tyres.
http://blog.theeuropetraveler.com/2007/11/do-you-need-winter-tires-in-europe.html
Unless you are visiting the far west Austrian resorts going through Switzerland adds a lot of time onto the journey so you would need winter tyres for Germany anyway.
Do a search on winter tyres for Switzerland see how many people strongly advise that you use winter tyres or face insurance problems should you have an accident. Many European countries have now tightened up winter tyre/chain requirements for safety reasons I see it's only a matter of time until Switzerland tightens up theirs. So if you hit a storm while the majority
are on winter tyres you will be trundling along at about 30 mph on chains - lol by the time you get there it'll be time to come back.
If you go for M&S tyres with a snowflake symbol on they can still be used in the UK - the overall increased cost is not that much.
Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Sat 23-08-08 9:15; edited 1 time in total
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| snowbunny wrote: |
| peura, I find my snow chains. can be traded in and exchanged. However I'm unable to find a manufacturers' recommended snow tyre for my car, however a set of regular tyres will cost around £400 plus fitting. For my OH with an all-wheel drive Subaru, life would be further complicated by needing to buy another smaller set of wheels+ the snow tyres now required+ warranty issues with Subaru +insurance issues which would arise from using non-standard wheels and tyres, all because there is insufficient space within the wheel arch for a larger profile tyre. |
Winter tyres / wheelsetups are normally approx the same overall diameter but not as wide - it tends to be snowchains that cause the problems as they increase the overall diameter and the chains hit the wheel arch. Often such cars can only use the spyder type devices which don't perform as well in snow as chains, for this reason winter tyres are an even better idea on these vehicles. Sports performance cars have wide wheels which are an absolute nightmare on snow, another reason for narrow winter tyres. I see Subys here with winter tyres.
| snowbunny wrote: |
| With that tally, I'm guessing that a week in Whistler B.C would look like a bargain by comparison to say, a week in a b&b in Mayrhofen. Maybe some British holidaymakers will fly, |
There are some good deals but the oil price is likely to hit the cost of longer flights harder. Plus with a car in central europe you can visit many resorts rather than being stuck to one.
| snowbunny wrote: |
| then again what about all the traditional visitors from the european mainland who prefer to drive, and would not contemplate flying within the continent? |
Most central Europeans were using winter tyres before the law was beefed up because they saw the sense in them. It tends to be some Brits who don't understand the severity of central European winters who have difficulty understanding why winter tyres are required.
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DB, Rental cars, rented from Swiss outlets, are Swiss owned, Swiss registered and Swiss insured and therefore meet Swiss regulations for Swiss vehicles, which also applies to Swiss residents. Foreign vehicles need to meet the standards of the country where they are registered in order to be insured under the EU Compulsory Cover Agreement which also includes Switzerland. All of which is off topic. What will keep me well away from Austria for the forseeable future is that the authorities can't seem to decide exactly what they have legislated and keep on giving conflicting information. Back to the man from the Tourist board. I bet you can't drive black cars on a Friday either.
BTW the Subaru example is in no way a sports car. Most Subaru's in Switzerland keep another set of wheels and tyres (different size). I already have M+S tyres but no snowflake symbol, and none available say's my dealer.
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snowbunny,
The Austrian law used to be very similar if not the same as the Swiss law, it's clearer now.
Most cars in Switzerland and Austria keep a second set of winter wheels and tyres (different size) not just subys. It's performance cars that tend to have problems with wheel clearance.
If you have a crash while driving with summer tyres (or M&S tyres without enough tread) it's possible that you could be prosecuted and sued. There are cases where the insurance comapny has not payed out for the full liability for crashes with summer tyres in the winter. It might just be that you thought the road woud clear or you were looking for a place to stop and put on the snow chains or that the conditions changed very quickly but it's a risk you could avoid by having better tyres. Not to mention the facts that you will have increased grip, braking and roadholding with such tyres.
According to the Austrian tourist office if your M&S tyres have enough tread (4 or 5 mm depending on tread pattern) you can legally drive here in the winter at the moment. I don't see what the fuss is about, if your M&S tyres have enough tread you could use them if not replace a little bit earlier with M&S tyres carrying a snowflake symbol. You can always run down the tread from 4 to 1.6 mm in the UK for the small cost of a tyre change. We're not talking 100's of pounds more here.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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DB, You have made your point, Austria is clearly far too dangerous a place to visit in the winter.
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| snowbunny wrote: |
| however a set of regular tyres will cost around £400 plus fitting. |
Maybe you could save lots of money by using bald tyres in this country. Or you could use these or these for several months of the year and save wear and tear on your others. Maybe you've changed cars since then though?
I'd bet you would consider buying skis/boots/snowboard/whatever at £400 and yet you're only likely to use it on you ski holiday. Why not something to make everyone around you a little safer?
| Quote: |
| For my OH with an all-wheel drive Subaru,... |
Do you buy AWD cars for more grip on the odd occasion it snows here? Surely winter tyres would be cheaper? Also you'd get better braking and cornering as well as acceleration.
| Quote: |
| then again what about all the traditional visitors from the European mainland who prefer to drive, and would not contemplate flying within the continent? |
I'd already addressed that here
| peura wrote: |
| I suspect that a lot of driving tourists in Austria are either Austrian, German or Danish where winter tyres are used |
I'm beginning to think no matter what we say here you'll be convinced that the Austrians don't like you, in spite of the fact that the tyres you have seem acceptable to their authorities (assuming they've got lots of tread). Their law makes perfect sense to me and I'd like to see a similar one here. After all the reason they have done this is after a snarlup on their roads comparable in effect (though with much more snow) to the one on the M11 a few years ago. We just grumble about gritters whilst the Austrians get on and do something to ensure that on busy roads where the gritters can't get through the traffic has a better chance of keeping moving.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| rjs wrote: |
| DB, You have made your point, Austria is clearly far too dangerous a place to visit in the winter. |
There's no such thing as bad weather, just the wrong clothes or tyres.
The snow can present a few risks but hey I'm used to danger, I lived in Manchester for 25 years.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I like to put forward the impression that all season tyres are normal tyres we can buy in UK. Just choose one that has the ability to cope with snow and make sure there is plenty of tread before taking the vehicle to the Alps.
There is absolutely no need to change size of the tyre and having a second set of spare tyres isn't always expensive if space is available.
I use Pirelli tyres. The stock tyre is Scorpion Zero which is a fast motorway tyre. It has 1 star rating for snow and 5 stars for motorway.
For skiing holidays I use a set of Scorpion S/T which has 3 stars for both motorway and snow. I picked up two sets of alloys and tyres for less than £100 per set in the Internet.
For pure winter tyre I can get Scorpion snow which has a 5 star rating for snow but zero rating for off-road due to its soft compound.
I settle for the Scorpion S/T and never have had the need to use the snow chains for the last 6 seasons. I run the stock tyres when the skiing season finishes.
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I've read through this thread with interest and must admit can see both sides to it. Can certainly see the value in snow-tyres when living/working or making frequent trips to the alps. But can also see that many motorists (and I'm including northern France, Dutch etc) who drive to the alps once a year will question their worth - in my own case I have made over 20 trips to France and only once needed chains and then only for a mile or so.
That said - I'm coming down on the side of buying some and plan to get a cheap pair of steel wheels to keep them on. Plenty of tips for buying tyres here - any views on wheels?
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You know it makes sense.
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Boris, From my own experience the 'value' of buying winter tyres depends on the length of time you intend to keep the car.
I bought 4 vredsteins for around £600 fitted etc after a nasty experience in a car that would not take chains but did take spikes spiders.
I looked into a spare set of wheels but the cost was out of my budget, and I could not get cheap steels to fit.
Do remember that (IFIRC) Alloys are stronger more durable than steel.
After 2 seasons I sold the car and then ebayed the tyres and got £180 for them.
For my current car I have a set of chains, my wife's car came with m+s tyres fitted as standard.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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b]boredsufin[/b], quote "Do remember that (IFIRC) Alloys are stronger more durable than steel"
Sorry, but from 25 years of racing/rallying experience, if you hit an alloy hard it will break, tyre goes down, if you hit a steel hard it will bend and tyre may not go down and you can knock it back sort of straightish. Steels are just heavy and ugly. Alloys don't mix very well with salt etc at all, they corrode very quickly, hence most winter tyres are on steel wheels.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I've bent the rim of a steel wheel hitting a kerb (which was under snow). The tyre didn't go down but renewed the wheel on the grounds of safety.
The nuts for an alloy wheel are often different for a steel wheel. Some snowchains can scratch alloy wheels esp if the chains slip / become dislodged.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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boredsurfin, at least another 2 years I would say - I've found a few 2nd hand on ebay which may be worth a shout.
The other option I'm considering is just replacing with M&S tyres for year round use, as should be better on camp sites and surely will be better than all season?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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I used vrdestein wintertracs (m+s marked) on my merc estate, and we ended up using them all year round as it meant we could get out of muddy field carparks. the car didn't handle quite as well, but it was a barge anyway so didn't really make any difference. In fact when we sold it the chap had a choice of 2 virtually identical cars, and decided to buy mine because of the tyres and getting his caravan out of grassy fields. I sold the alloys and summer tyres in the local paper!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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boredsurfin, noisier tyres means increased fuel useage 
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| Quote: |
But tyre noise was noticeably louder on motorways, so I just turned up the sound system
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I drive with ear plugs in nowadays - while Audio books are great for keeping the kid quiet, I would cheerfully murder the Famous Five
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Boris, DS with headphones brilliant invention 
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Any sport motorcyclist can tell a good tyre, that grips the tarmac when the rider's knee scratching the road surface, should not last more than 3500 miles.
Tyres with soft compound grips the road better at the expense of wearing out quicker. Winter tyres are intentionally softened
A quite from Michelin site
| Quote: |
Because of the specific form of a winter tyre, which is designed to displace the water passing under the tyre, a winter tyre reduces the risk of aquaplaning.
A winter tyre gives much better adherence and excellent traction, because it has a deeper tread than a summer tyre. In fact, the tread of a winter tyre has many more sipes than that of a summer tyre, for better grip on snow. A winter tyre is made of special silica rubber compounds, which are better adapted to the cold and enable better braking. |
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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snowbunny,
Glad to hear you won't be in Austria, less chance of you crashing into me in your summer tyres 
DB, is correct, it is a particular problem with Brits and (so i'm told) with the Dutch. The last 10 or 15 years of mild and, in parts of the UK, virtually snowless winters have resulted in a generation of drivers with no concept of driving in snow at all, never mind in a white out with deep lying snow on the road surface.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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robboj, Did I mention that I had summer tyres, or is english a 2nd language for you?
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I'd agree with carroz & boredsurfin about the extra grip I think I notice in wet, damp, muddy tarmac and in grassy/muddy fields my winter tyres grip better. They also cope better with standing water than my previous tyres, no tug at the steering wheel or lightness felt. For me, there wear rate is about the same as my summers ones. But they do make a funny noise when driving over wet ironwork (bridge/tunnel expansion joints etc) .
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You know it makes sense.
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| snowbunny wrote: |
| robboj, Did I mention that I had summer tyres, or is english a 2nd language for you? |
Ahem!! English - or is it a second language for you? 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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snowbunny,
Ok then, I'll be honest, I'm just glad to hear you won't be in Austria 
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Poster: A snowHead
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| robboj wrote: |
snowbunny,
Ok then, I'll be honest, I'm just glad to hear you won't be in Austria |
Naturally I'm gutted to be missing the hordes of righteous locals lining the roads and giving lectures to irresponsible foreigners who are under the impression that they can just turn up in their cars and spend money.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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snowbunny, I'm still wondering why you are singling out Austria. IIRC Germany has similar laws, as does Finland (although driving there may take longer ). You don't seem to have a problem with the French requiring snowchains, which also means you can't just drive up to the Alps and spend money but have to get the right equipment.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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peura, Snowchains are a little bit easier to store than an extra set of tyres.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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rjs, I've found room and I don't have a very large garden  . Anyway my main question is, why is it ok for Germany to require winter tyres but not Austria?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| snowbunny wrote: |
| robboj wrote: |
snowbunny,
Ok then, I'll be honest, I'm just glad to hear you won't be in Austria |
Naturally I'm gutted to be missing the hordes of righteous locals lining the roads and giving lectures to irresponsible foreigners who are under the impression that they can just turn up in their cars and spend money. |
What makes you think the locals will lecture anyone? - it's the police that will enforce the law. However much you were going to spend it's not enough to put other people at risk (inc other Brits who have gone to the trouble of getting a decent set of tyres).
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| DB wrote: |
| snowbunny wrote: |
| robboj wrote: |
snowbunny,
Ok then, I'll be honest, I'm just glad to hear you won't be in Austria |
Naturally I'm gutted to be missing the hordes of righteous locals lining the roads and giving lectures to irresponsible foreigners who are under the impression that they can just turn up in their cars and spend money. |
What makes you think the locals will lecture anyone? |
Well you seem to have done plenty of that, broadcasting to the planet that "it's for your own good". Did you get paid?
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| snowbunny wrote: |
| DB wrote: |
| snowbunny wrote: |
| robboj wrote: |
snowbunny,
Ok then, I'll be honest, I'm just glad to hear you won't be in Austria |
Naturally I'm gutted to be missing the hordes of righteous locals lining the roads and giving lectures to irresponsible foreigners who are under the impression that they can just turn up in their cars and spend money. |
What makes you think the locals will lecture anyone? |
Well you seem to have done plenty of that, broadcasting to the planet that "it's for your own good". Did you get paid? |
Paid by who? and I'm a Mancunian not a local Austrian. People ask questions others help out - Snowheads isn't about the money.
Just answering people's questions here (which isn't the whole planet) before somone either gets stopped and prevented from travelling further on a ski holiday or even worse has a bad accident.
Yes sure I've a personel interest that foreigners (be they Brits, Polish, Czechs or Dutch etc) don't make the roads I travel often less safe by traveling illegally.
Of course for some people it's only about the money, stuff the rest, stuff the laws, stuff the safety, whatevers cheaper will do.
Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Mon 1-09-08 8:53; edited 1 time in total
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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bump
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Why not spend your morning endlessly bumping threads discussing chains????????????
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FAQ
. Of course, they all have winter tyres. As would I if I drove there, even for a little trailer I may take with me.
