 Poster: A snowHead
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| Kramer wrote: |
| beanie1 wrote: |
| On a BASI course you will be treated as a professional undergoing training and will be b***** if you turn up late / messy / smelling of alcohol etc. |
That sort of pseudo-military cr@p gets right on my tits. Does it really go on? |
On both my L1 and L2 course we weren't allowed to smoke or drink during the day (either on the hill, or the off-snow session which was held in a bar). On one occasion a couple of guys were late because they had difficulty with travel that morning; we left with out them without any extra wait time, and when they eventually caught up with us we all had a friendly but serious chat about the need to turn up on time for clients. We also discussed professional standards, including appearance, during some of the off-snow work. Pseudo-military? No. Professional? Yes. Cr@p? Not in my opinion, but these courses have a different atmosphere to recreational courses I've done and the group as a whole were well aware that behaviour which would be perfectly normal for a holidaymaker would not be acceptable to our Trainer. No one objected to this.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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BASI trainers have to tread a very thin line on "professionalism" - something that might be appropriate for someone straight out of school/university can come across as totally patronising to someone who has spent 10 years working in a professional environment. My trainer was actually pretty good about this and there was the full range in my group. That said, we didn't have anyone who pushed the boundaries too hard
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Nothing pseudo-military about it, just basic standards of professional behaviour.
To put it into context, imagine you attend a training course as part of your day job. You turn up late, bedraggled and unable to hide your hangover (nothing wrong with being hungover, you just need to be able to hide it  ) Is your employer going to be impressed, even though it's "only" a training course? Of course not!
Being late is the cardinal sin of instructing, I know a good few people who've been sacked instantly for it (their only excuse being over-sleeping, alarm didn't go off etc). You ruin someone's holiday if you're late.
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| Arno wrote: |
| My trainer was actually pretty good about this and there was the full range in my group. That said, we didn't have anyone who pushed the boundaries too hard |
Same for me, on both courses this season. You know when you sign up that it is going to be a bit different from a recreational course, in fact I would have been disappointed if it hadn't been. There are advantages to setting a higher standard of professional conduct - our group management was very effective so we covered a lot of terrain safely, there was no wasted time at the start of the day or any time we took a coffee break or lunch and we bonded very well as a group so lots of team support for each other.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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rob@rar, there's a big difference between a friendly chat, and a bollocking as implied by the earlier post. You're paying for friendly guidance, and that's what you'd expect to get. I'd also expect a bit of friendly guidance if your socialising is impairing your ability to pass the exam, however if not, then I don't see that it's any business of the trainer.
A ban on smoking if you're in the uniform of the ski school, and it applies to everyone would be reasonable, but otherwise it seems like overkill and slightly petty to me.
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Kramer, I don't think it is too much to expect a professional standard of behaviour on a course where you are being assessed for a professional qualification, regardless of being in uniform or not. I agree that a 'sergeant-major' style rant would be inappropriate unless safety was being seriously compromised, but clearly laying down the law/setting expected standards of behaviour seems fair game to me. It took my L2 group a couple of days to get used to how tight the Trainer expected our group management to be (it was the neatest - and fastest - ski school snake you've ever seen!), but we had no doubt at the end of the course that it was one of the important factors in how much ground we covered in the two weeks (in every sense of the term).
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Kramer, maybe my choice of vocab was inappropriate, but i didn't mean to imply a "rant". The first time someone turned up a bit late they got a short sharp lecture and told we'd go without them next time.
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| beanie1 wrote: |
| The first time someone turned up a bit late they got a short sharp lecture and told we'd go without them next time. |
Our group didn't even get a warning! We just knew from the overall way our group was managed that the Trainer wouldn't wait. We met at 8.30 in a cafe, and left at 8.55 regardless...
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| beanie1 wrote: |
| Nothing pseudo-military about it, just basic standards of professional behaviour. |
Being professional includes treating all your colleagues with respect - no bollockings.
| Quote: |
| To put it into context, imagine you attend a training course as part of your day job. You turn up late, bedraggled and unable to hide your hangover (nothing wrong with being hungover, you just need to be able to hide it ) Is your employer going to be impressed, even though it's "only" a training course? Of course not! |
Of course, if your employer is paying for your time then they have a right to expect that you'll turn up in an acceptable state. However on a BASI course, essentially you're the customer and you're paying the trainer to provide a service so it's up to you how you choose to use the course. The trainer's responsibility goes only as far as it impacts on your ability to pass the course, and no further.
| Quote: |
| Being late is the cardinal sin of instructing, I know a good few people who've been sacked instantly for it (their only excuse being over-sleeping, alarm didn't go off etc). You ruin someone's holiday if you're late. |
I'm not quite so sure about that one. I've had quite a few instructors turn up a little late and still give good value. Unannounce cancellations are far more troublesome.
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| Kramer wrote: |
| However on a BASI course, essentially you're the customer and you're paying the trainer to provide a service so it's up to you how you choose to use the course. The trainer's responsibility goes only as far as it impacts on your ability to pass the course, and no further. |
Well, you and up to nine other people are the customers, so it's never going to be individual choice on what happens. You also sign up to do a course with a particular curriculum, very clear assessment standards, a professional code of conduct, a requirement to contribute to teamwork during the course, a requirement to uphold professional standards at all time during the course (no smoking, drinking, under influence of drugs, professionally attired), etc, etc. Al this is made very clear before you start the course so you are well aware of what you are signing up for. It is made very clear - page 1 of the pre-course info booklet for example - that the Trainer has two roles: to help each candidate achieve their goals; and to uphold the standards and quality of the qualification and the profession.
If people are looking for high-quality but free-wheeling, customer-is-king kind of instruction then in my limited experience BASI courses are not for them.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Kramer, as I said, my choice of vocab may have been inappropriate, I have never witnessed a trainer treat candidates with anything other than respect.
| Quote: |
Of course, if your employer is paying for your time then they have a right to expect that you'll turn up in an acceptable state. However on a BASI course, essentially you're the customer and you're paying the trainer to provide a service so it's up to you how you choose to use the course. The trainer's responsibility goes only as far as it impacts on your ability to pass the course, and no further.
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I disagree. Part of the course involves learning how to conduct yourself with a professional attitude in a ski resort where there are many distractions. For young guys straight out of school / uni this can be quite a big lesson. You are assessed on your skiing / teaching ability, but you are also being admitted to a professional organisation, so I think it's only appropriate that you are expected to maintain a professional attitude. Sure, you may be paying for the course yourself, but how is it going to impact on BASI (and the reputation of your fellow members) if you pass the course, get your first job with a ski school and think it's acceptable to turn up late looking a mess, as this wasn't important on the course?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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ski, VolklAttivaS5, Spyderman, many thanks for the advice. I'll look into those courses for the start of next season.
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Thanks for clarifying it guys. I've no problem with a disciplined approach being part of the course, especially if trainees have signed a code of conduct, just with the suggestion that public dressing downs and threats were acceptable behaviour by trainers to their trainees.
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You know it makes sense.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| Yes, that's a BASI Gap course, it's on their website. Just out of interest, who will be running the BASI assessment weeks at L1 and L2? |
Andy Freshwater. And it's been interesting to see just how close the BASI Central Theme is moving towards the CSIA FTTP system.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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veeeight, FTTP?
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Poster: A snowHead
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Fast Track To Parallel.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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veeeight, thanks. I'm still working my way through the CSIA alpine manual. Has some nice stuff in it, especially teaching kids.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Dont know about the rest of you but after a full days BASI training and the night time stuff and the homework for the next day, I didnt have enough time or energy to get drunk & party.
I think the fact that you are on the course means you want to be there and want to get the most out of it.
I am following my course up with a holiday to go and ski where and when I want. The BASI course was good socially, but it is not a holiday.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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davidof, thanks for the info, and well done to Simon for sticking to his guns after all the hassle, and worse, he has had to put up with. Wonder how BASI will react to this judgement...
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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To resurrect an old thread... Anyone who posted on here 18 months ago made any decisions / progress on going down the instructor route? (apologies if you have and posted it elsewhere!)
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beanie1, still going down the same road, a little bit closer to ISIA. One thing I have learned since this thread was started was just how awful it is to teach with a bad hangover, which makes the discussion about professional standards come alive for me 
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rob@rar,
| Quote: |
One thing I have learned since this thread was started was just how awful it is to teach with a bad hangover
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ha ha!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| beanie1 wrote: |
| To resurrect an old thread... Anyone who posted on here 18 months ago made any decisions / progress on going down the instructor route? (apologies if you have and posted it elsewhere!) |
Nope, too busy mountain biking.
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i'm asking myself the same opening question at the moment, starting to think eurotest training is a pipedream although i hear different opinions all the time..
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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skimottaret, go for it, what have you got to lose? At the very worst (potential injuries excepted) you will improve your skiing through race training, at best... well, to pass it would be awesome!!
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Quote: |
what have you got to lose
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about 15 pounds
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| Kramer wrote: |
So I'm 34, a reasonable skier for a 'vacationer' with about 30 to 40 weeks under my belt. I've done no race training whatsoever. My fitness is reasonable at the moment, but not remarkeable, but is improving all the time.
If I was to decide to go down the BASI route towards being a ski instructor, how far could I reasonably expect to get? |
Hi kramer
You could in short go as far as you like in any of the systems depending on the time you are willing to commit to training. It would not be unreasonable to think that you could achieve a standard whereby you could get your ISIA, if you are skiing on a part-time basis. Beyond this I would suggest you need to do it full-time.
I have read the suggestions from people on qualifications and what to go for. Having spent years in the industry and having run a ski school myself for years I would suggest the BASI is the best at present to go for if you are planning on teaching in Europe. All the systems are getting much better.
The question really also is where do you want to use the qualification, US,Canada or Europe? As each qualification is best recognised in its country of origin this should perhaps become the determining factor of which system you do.
In my mind though stic with BASI, I have taught all over the world with it and found it has been great. I also have qualified to ISIA level in PSIA, CSIA, Swiss Snowsport as well as BASI so have a good idea what is involved in all the systems.
I hope this helps.
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You know it makes sense.
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Kinda relevant.. didn't really want to start a new thread:
Any career/long term instructors mind sharing a bit of insight into how sustainable it was? I'm getting a lot of "real job" talk, especially from grandparents - and given this season's aim is to break even overall with rent, living and flight it's not unreasonable, so I've been wondering a lot about back up plans, going back to Uni, maybe even getting into teaching since I've discovered how much I enjoy working with kids. I'm a CSIA2, 2nd season working just starting in Fernie, BC, aspiring to push for CSIA3 asap, NZ in summer to work year round for what it's worth.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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DaveC, I don't have much knowledge of the CSIA system, but do know a few fully qualified BASI guys. I would say that to make it to the top you not only have to be a superb skier (ISTD standard), but also a really really talented teacher so you can develop a personal reputation in the industry (think of the ski teachers / schools who are frequently named on here - you need to aspire to be one of them). You also need to have good business sense / an entrepeneurial streak. Most ISTDs I know don't work for a ski school, they have their own business - so you also need to be good at sales, marketing, managing people etc.
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Poster: A snowHead
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skimottaret,
I'd agree, did my level 1 and 2 at 29, having only been skiing for 8 years, now going through my ISIA which (I hope) should be reachable. but I've realised from training and skiing with my fellow instructors that ISTD will be beyond me. Awesome, fast, fearless skiers with plenty of training fail the speed test routinelyand the tech is v high level.
On the upside. this will be my third season teaching in the alps somthing I'd not dreamed of 5 years ago so you never know  I'll still do some courses for my own betterment and if the knees hold out.........
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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oops was commenting on a comment two pages ago 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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DaveC, any idea how far you are away from L3? Are you going to do the course this year and get some opinions on how well placed you are for the exam?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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arv, I was pretty set on doing as much training as I could all season, but the 3 course is January and exams are Feb in Fernie iirc, so it really doesn't leave much time to practise. I'd guess I'm a season or two's work away from it - technical side is something that I feel I can dedicate time to, but the teaching portion and more specifically a critical eye is a bit harder to rush. I might do the course anyway, depending on feedback I get from the local l4s.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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DaveC, In North America it is just about sustainable, especially at L3. However, most people I know either live in the area and work a summer seasonal job or have another business that they can do either year round or during the off season. I do know people who do an endless winter, but even they have work that they supplement their teaching with. Personally, I'm just about making it - I work hard during the winter and have a profession that I can follow during the summer, although the economy at the moment is not helping. I'm also the only person I know who lives away from the resort in the summer and doesn't go to the southern hemisphere to teach. The longer you stay at the same resort, and the better qualified you are, then the easier it become since that's when you get the returning clients (assuming that your resort lets you teach private lessons), and generally increased certification equals increased pay and more work. Last year the economy was bad down here, and many 1st year instructors didn't make and haven't returned - I'd imagine Cananda had similar problems?
How much would you regret not teaching skiing if you didn't do it? And how much does it bother you that your grandparents are bugging you?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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DaveC, From what I've seen out and about in Europe beanie1 has it about right. To make it a career and repay your training costs I'd say you need to get to the top level qualification and get a profitable ski school up and running. Easier said than done although it could be different in the US / Canada. I'm sure cdmogulski could give a view on that.
The training costs & time to reach the top level can't be far off those of a professional qualification in another sphere.....
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DaveC, maybe by the time you get your ski legs back you will be feeling a little differently, is it only kids lessons you do (usually)? I think the biggest jumps in technique etc I made in my 'season' were definitely on the courses, on the L2 course my skiing improved more in a week than it ever has. The whole development of the 'eye' would be the thing to catch me, good luck if you decide to do it!
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cdmogulski, you might have missed that Kramer started this 18 months ago.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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skinanny, this is my 4th season, and I've been IT contracting through summers and did do quite well out of it - recession has meant a summer sat at home bored though (couldn't afford NZ). I really dislike IT, can't see it being part of the long term plan. Endless winter is possible, but it's a bit counter intuitive to the idea of ever settling down or stability - not something I crave, but something that really should be on the radar. Can't settle in Canada without residency (or work at all outside of ski school). Staying in Fernie does mean slowly growing profitability - client base, privates, small commission on request by name. I'd hate to miss a ski season, if anything does take me away it's going to be in a few years (I'm just 23 now).
As for how much I'm listening to grandparents etc, it's not really the fact they dissaprove, it's more that they amplify thoughts I'm having. I probably broke even last year without flights or anything extra I spent over the top of rent and food.
arv, I was on the kids side last year, requested it again this year, but the adult demand and requests did take me to that side a fair bit last year - it's not that I dislike teaching adults, it's just that I really enjoyed working with the kids and as a returner, I'm going to be taking reasonably high end (upper mountain, blacks, kids that can actually ski pow) a lot of the time so it does really appeal. I'm sure a L3 course would improve my skiing a lot, but the in house tuition we have is from course conductors anyway and they're great guys.
david@mediacopy, not sure the costs are that expensive - there're ways to really cushion it while working, and it's obviously a lifestyle career rather than a career path for financial reward - which I'm OK with, but the concern is not being able to ever be really financially sound.
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DaveC, so what you are really having to figure out is what your other source of income could be, rather than IT. That's probably more difficult away from a resort area since many young male instructors in this area work construction in the summer, and I'd imagine that's true throughout NA. Personally, I'd look into what the Open University has to offer, that way you can still teach in the winter and maybe concentrate on studying during the summer. Something you could do freelance would be useful!
I wouldn't really count on settling down or having a great deal of stability within the ski industry, unless you have other income or a partner who does, but settling down can be overrated.
Icertainly know how it is to sit at home for the summer - from leaving here at the end of April until now I worked 6 1/2 weeks, which was not really enough but will have to do. Every year I wonder weather another season is worth it, or should I go back to full-time real work - so far the skiing has won and will do so for the forseable future, even though I'm quite a bit older than you! 
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FAQ
