 Poster: A snowHead
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David Goldsmith, my dear chap, in the absence of a rep, tell us all about your experience of skiing off-piste with one this season - or last, and what he/she required. I don't ask that you tell us of your discussion on avalanche cords with him/her - since of course that would have been private. Not sure how the question of what SCGB reps require is relevant to your original post - but I suppose things roll along.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Not being funny achilles, but if you did a search on Snowmonkey's posts then you'd see he falls into the "few post nearly all of them valuable contributions" category - rather than sock puppet.
Although in this case...  (just kidding).
Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Wed 5-03-08 15:42; edited 1 time in total
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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David Goldsmith, I think you have it the wrong way round, the shovel and probe are mandatory on the off-piste holidays, but not carried by everyone always who turns up to ski with a resort rep.
Now how can we find a way of ensuring that we know that people who ski off-piste without the gear are not bothered about being rescued, so we can save some effort... 
I skied with a chap 3 weeks ago who had recently been buried head down at a depth of 2 metres, 300m from the point he was last seen. Rescued in just over 15 minutes. Shovelling and search technique are becoming the limitations in this sort of scenario, and I - for one- have had a bit of training but need to know a whole lot more.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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PhillipStanton, to just wander of the topic for a sec, all is looking very promising for our ski on Sunday. I had a great day out today, especially since I didn't get caught in that avanlanche I mentioned before (and if I had I would have been under the snow beeping away to myself because my mate didn't have any equipment...)!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| David Goldsmith wrote: |
| ... is it mandatory to carry shovel and probe when off-piste skiing with a SCGB rep, but not on an SCGB off-piste holiday? |
Wrong way around: mandatory to have the trinity if you're on an off-piste holiday; my experience of off-piste days with rep is that leader and tail-ender (at least) will have shovels/probes and everyone will have transceivers - and ensuring that one or more of the more experienced off-pisters is in the tail. BGA, I think this is reasonable - trained people at the extremities of the group and virgins (full, or only little bit ) in the middle. Every formal holiday (SCGB or Snoworks) I have been on has included a practice transceiver search early in the week.
Re practice locations with multiple buried transmitters. Great when they work, but last week at the practice area in Zinal, at least two of the transmitters were quite clearly not working.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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PhillipStanton, it was just him taking up well-worn themes that made me wonder if he were genuine - but I do now accept that he is.
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achilles, isn't it about time that you wiped that dog shoite off the sole of your shoe so you could stop continually reminding us that you've trodden in something nasty? It really is quite tiresome.
On the topic, every guided trip I've been on has insisted on transceiver and shovel for all party members, probe has sometimes been optional. This January our guide supplied all of the party with ABS sacks as well. I tend to ski with TS and P all of the time these days, even if just on a "piste" day, for reasons outlined in posts above.
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A fairly regular feature of practice transciever searches is the person who buries their transciever but forgets to switch it on first.............. and just occasionally then forgets exactly where they put it. (And in one case when I was present dug up half the gulley and never did find it.)
However I've had very little practice with a probe, and wonder if I could tell that what I have hit is someone's ribcage or head rather than a rock.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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snowball, if it was a ribcage, after the initial resistance, if you press really hard, then you'll feel some give. 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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snowball, if you bury your rucksack and then feel the difference between probing snow/ice/rock and probing the bag, it is pretty noticable. I have been told on good authority that a rucksack feels a lot like a body - thankfully I have never had to put this theory to the test...
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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It is essential to practice wiht your kit the alternative to a rucksack is a jacket stuffed with a few sweatshirts. Had a great guide in Banff a few years ago who meet us all the night before and made us practice as a group looking for transcivers! It was unreal to see the diffrence especially working as a group to search.
Lets just hope no  is caught playing hide and seek with an avalanch
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| Quote: |
| Memo to self: practice with a buddy at the MSB. |
Was also thinking exactly that. Maybe Christian would be willing to help out? If not, I'm definitely up for some practice.
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| anyone in a party who is buried cannot do much more than wait to be rescued (apart from pee) |
I understand one might pee from fear, but - serious question - should one try to for some purpose? Melting snow around one a bit?
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You know it makes sense.
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Well, I'm a bit torn here.
On the one hand, I have done a lot of (unguided) off-piste skiing without carrying the right kit. Working a ski season as a 23 yr old in 93/94, I didn't know anyone who had the gear. Most of our skiing was off-piste. Quite a lot it would have been low-risk between the pistes stuff but a lot was not... At that stage the cost of the gear would have been an issue. I'd say that we took plenty of risks that I would now find unacceptable.
Today, I have the gear and carry it. Where I felt the risk was really low (general risk level, terrain, patrolling, etc) I would consider skiing without the kit if for some reaons I didnt have it with me. Equally I would ski with someone who was not carrying the kit in those conditions.
In most circumstances however I would require my companions to be kitted up.
I feel the Ski Club guidance is appropriate. It's not the law and individuals may not follow it but it is the right rule of thumb.
DG asks
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Of course it's good for buried people to be dug out - and a tragedy when they might have been saved - but are we personally duty-bound to carry the kit to achieve this?
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An important reason that I bought my own kit was that I, personally, found it unacceptable to even ski with a guide when I didn't have the gear and experience to dig him out if the worst happened. I was not willing to be just a passive carrier of a beacon to be used in my rescue. I therefore needed to be practised with my transceiver and have probe and shovel.
Although I've now done more skiing than climbing, I started out as a climber. Most climbers do feel that they have a moral responsibility to help people who get into trouble on the mountain (the incidents on Everest where people climbed past stricken climbers were seen by most as huge breaches with climbing ethics). I do feel duty-bound to carry the appropriate kit.
J
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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vetski, right - we will bury you first ...
I suspect voluntary control of sphincters may not be an issue in this situation!
snowball, yep - on the one occaision I have practiced probing I was totally confused. Need to practice this - and organising proper shovelling - at some point.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Yoda, tiresome is as tiresome does. If David did not post the 'dogshoite' in the first place, there would be no problem.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| snowball wrote: |
| .......However I've had very little practice with a probe, and wonder if I could tell that what I have hit is someone's ribcage or head rather than a rock. |
I've never practised with a probe at all - I wonder how many have. It would seem from your comment that if in doubt one has to dig. PS - I think we should practise.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| vetski wrote: |
| ........I understand one might pee from fear, but - serious question - should one try to for some purpose? Melting snow around one a bit? |
I have read that it helps dogs find you. Mind you, by the time dogs are brought in, I suspect they are looking more for a body to fill your coffin at the funeral, rather than to find you alive.  . But maybe someone knows of when dogs have saved the day?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Yoda wrote: |
| achilles, isn't it about time that you wiped that dog shoite off the sole of your shoe so you could stop continually reminding us that you've trodden in something nasty? It really is quite tiresome. |
My nomination for the snowHeads-Pulitzer Prize 2008. Superb!
I doubt if I'd have the balls to write something like that after five whisky-and-yodas.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| achilles wrote: |
I have read that it [pee] helps dogs find you. |
On that basis I guess it helps to be buried next to a lamppost
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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David I was about to add something less Pulitzer-worthy about the characteristics of bullies a few posts back but decided it might get moderated. However about safety equipment I don't agree. People should be encouraged to get it. If they ski with a guide or perhaps a rep they can borrow all or some of it, which is the best way to start. They shouldn't be skiing on their own off piste when they don 't know what they are doing and if they persist the cost of buying it isn't great..
However, getting back to avalanches, there is the old thing about spitting (or peeing?) to see which way up you are. But what is the point - it would just be depressing to find you were upside down. And it might be better to conserve the body heat - hypothermia is a very real possibility. Personally I think being trapped under the snow would induce horrible panic - I am slightly claustrophobic anyway - I cannot even sleep prone on my bed.
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Wed 5-03-08 18:15; edited 1 time in total
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snowball, if you could move an arm ( a really big if) , and were head upwards, it might be worth seeing if you were not too deep and could get a hand out?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Are "transceivers, a shovels and a probes" the new helmets? Or were helmets the new "transceivers, a shovels and a probes"?
Is SKGB in or out of favour today?
I am confused?
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achilles, nobody (except you) said the shoit was anything to do with David - I think the quote may have been too subtle for you.
Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads  on Wed 5-03-08 18:20; edited 1 time in total
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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martski, all guides I have met advocate avalanche rescue equipment. No guide I have met has advocated helmets (in fact I am pushed to remember a helmet-wearing guide).
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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achilles, Graham Austick at St Anton wears one, but he doesn't push them. The guys at Extremely Canadian aren't quite guides in the European sense but they wear them and the one I skied with got me to hire one my second daywith him. (It didn't fit too well and I dumped it in a restaurant after a couple of runs.) These are very much the exception, though.
But lets not turn this into YET ANOTHER helmets thread (please).
Last edited by And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports. on Wed 5-03-08 18:27; edited 1 time in total
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snowball, Manu our La Grave guide didn't wear one - but didn't knock them. He did make a particular point to the other non-helmet wearing member of the group (not me, I was wearing a lid) to take particular care when running out by the eve of a mountain hut.
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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What % of guides insist on all three items?
My own experience is that virtually all nowadays insist on transceivers and will provide them though very occsionally for a hire charge. All guides carry probes and shovels and a minority I have skied with provide them for one other member of the party. None have insisted on them for all. Most test the transcievers each day but very few demonstrate how they work or have pracitse sessions.
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Poster: A snowHead
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achilles steep rock-walled couloirs with rocks below are slowly converting me to the idea of having one. Probably next year (assuming I don't spill my brains the week after next).
vetski, Stuck in an avalanche you can't move an inch: the snow packs solid when it comes to rest (have you ever skied avalanche debris?)
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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vetski, Yep - and you're next for the probing practice by the massed MSB herd
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| achilles wrote: |
| martski, all guides I have met advocate avalanche rescue equipment. No guide I have met has advocated helmets (in fact I am pushed to remember a helmet-wearing guide). |
I agree that all the guides I have skied with over a number of years advocate carrying rescue kit.
I was quite surprised that one day in Engelberg this year however, all three of our guides turned up wearing helmets.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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snowball, It was seeing a mate fall like a rag doll head first for about 800' that tipped the balance for me. Not sure it would do any major good, but could see possibly being spared some minor but very unpleasant stuff.
T Bar, My experience has often been similar. On the last 2 Freshtracks holidays I went on the trinity were mandatory. My own view is that the most likely guy in a party to get buried is the guide - so not only is it the decent thing to be able to get him out quickly, it is very much in the party's self-interest!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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achilles,Yes, I've been with one guide who skied first and got avalanched (but not buried) - we were just starting down a route and had to climb out again. And in the avi I was in the only person buried (but not completely) was the guide.
I'd have thought your mate could at least have got his legs below him, even if he couldn't stop. Of course that wouldn't preclude him hitting his head, but might improve his chances. I must admit though that skiing the top of the Cairn couloir on Bellecote last week with firm snow I doubted there would be any way of stopping if I fell - well not for many hundreds of metres anyway, and by then it would be a matter of chance if something stopped me. But then, I managed it once, so who knows.
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last time I skied off piste with SCGB- about 2 yrs ago-trancievers provided occasionally- not always off piste
never had probes or shovels provided with SCGB including on off piste course in Argentiere (had own shovel).
Mrs Ed and I now both have all 3 and helmets etc hors piste and bca web sites make it clear that there isn't much point just having a beacon- you and your companions are the rescue - there is no time to lose and without a probe and shovel the time taken to extract someone who is totally buried is lethal.
That said most people who are rescued alive from avalanches would be found without needing beacons- because they are visible from the surface or there are other surface indications (if I read hors piste stats correctly.
We usually ski 'inbounds' off piste- where there is obviously a risk of avalanche (but very few deaths according to hors piste). New rule is to always take it when skiing with wife- if skiing with others who don't ski off piste then I don't take my gear- and don't ski off piste.
Being obsessional (and formerly quite a keen climber- but gravity and waistline curtail this) I have always skied with a rucksac- spare hat/goggles/gloves/down vest/water/ mars bar- so adding a shovel and probe is no problem.
The only danger is looking like a prat.
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edsilva, what do you mean by "inbounds" off piste? (unless you are talking about America, of course).
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| vetski wrote: |
| Will pm Admin to ask for a Forum Boxing Ring/Fight Club thread - then achilles &David Goldsmith can go and slug it out in there! |
I can't imagine them two boxing, but I bet they'd be lethal with a handbag.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Please could someone explain to me why the fact (if true) that David Goldsmith hasn't recently been skiing should preclude him from discussing skiing, asking questions about current practice and/or having opinions on current practice? If snowHeads were only allowed to post opinions on subjects of which they have in-depth, personal, specialised experience, the forum would die in an instant!
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Hurtle, I don't think anybody here has stated that 'fact'. David himself said in his first post:
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| I began off-piste skiing in the early 1960s and hope to enjoy plenty more of it in the 21st century. |
Which kinda suggests he has considerable authority of 40 years or so continuous off-piste skiing under his bases - so he is not presenting himself as a punter who may not have done a lot of skiing for a few years, and therefore only the gnarliest would should think of challenge his views.
How do you see that statement in his opening post?
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FAQ
