 Poster: A snowHead
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| saikee wrote: |
It is possible that once you are at liberty to avoid the crowdy blue slopes your chance of being hit by other piste users may change. |
No doubt true. That's why it was such an eye-opener for me skiing with a beginner again when my wife took up skiing. Young intermediates carrying more speed than talent seem to be the most dangerous slope users (statistics anyone?). Collisions on blacks are far more rare for the 2 obvious reasons a) less people b) higher average skill, but they are potentially the most dangerous if they should occur.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| uktrailmonster wrote: |
It sounds to me like Swiss skiers fall over a lot by themselves! |
No more than anyone else, surveys and polls (taken in Switzerland) produce exactly the same reaction as I keep reading on here, nearly all of those questioned are under the mistaken impression they face the greatest risk from other skiers colliding them with and it's not the case.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| achilles wrote: |
| uktrailmonster, let me know where you ski, and I will stay way from there. You and your wife do seem very collision prone. I am an experienced skier - well over 50 weeks. What you are describing does not match my experience at all - but I almost never ski in school holidays. And at LDA I consider, and sometimes take, the option of taking a lift down rather that be subject to home-run mayhem at the end of the day - so maybe my experience is not fully representative of the average. However, if I had to endure what you describe, I would give up skiing - I can't see the pleasure in it. |
Interesting, what you're describing matches my experience entirely, I've quite often take a lift down to avoid that rush. I've not counted how many weeks I've done, it's got to be several though, and I've never had a collision either.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| alex_heney wrote: |
| ise wrote: |
On the other hand, anyone complacent enough to believe they can identify and localize the sound of an oncoming skier or 'boarder with enough time to react is someone I'd prefer not to share the slope with personally. |
How on earth cabn you come out with that ridiculous comment? |
Anyone that's relying on an preventive measure that's not going to work could be termed complacent.
What is it you're all claiming? That from a variety of noise behind you can tell the number, speed, direction of oncoming slope users and what their immediate intentions are? Or that unless you hear something you're unaware of other slope users? That's not normal human hearing, it's super spider hearing sense 
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I agree with ise.
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| ise wrote: |
What is it you're all claiming? That from a variety of noise behind you can tell the number, speed, direction of oncoming slope users and what their immediate intentions are? Or that unless you hear something you're unaware of other slope users? That's not normal human hearing, it's super spider hearing sense |
Believe what you like. My (average) sense of hearing has alerted me of the close presence of other skiers / boarders on a daily basis for years. I'm sure there are many others like me (with stereo hearing). I'm not saying I couldn't ski without hearing, but I find it quite useful.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| ise wrote: |
I seem to spend a lot of time avoiding people in front of me taking wild erratic movement, particularly on narrow tracks, I'm gaining some insight into why that's happening now. |
Yawn, just talking meaningless jibberish now. You actually believe this theory then or just trying to be funny?
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| ise wrote: |
Anyone that's relying on an preventive measure that's not going to work could be termed complacent.
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Hearing is 1 sense. I'm not stupid enough to rely on it as my only alarm system. I'm amazed you can't hear other slope users around you or at least comprehend that others might be able to. If I hear someone close by, I take a glance in that direction to check what's going on. Simple.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| ise wrote: |
| What is it you're all claiming? That from a variety of noise behind you can tell the number, speed, direction of oncoming slope users and what their immediate intentions are? Or that unless you hear something you're unaware of other slope users? That's not normal human hearing, it's super spider hearing sense |
What is it you're claiming? Just becase you can't hear it, others must not be able too?
It may not be super spider hearing that other has. It may be yours is deficient? (or lacking experience to distinguish the sounds you do hear)
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| uktrailmonster wrote: |
| ise wrote: |
I seem to spend a lot of time avoiding people in front of me taking wild erratic movement, particularly on narrow tracks, I'm gaining some insight into why that's happening now. |
Yawn, just talking meaningless jibberish now. You actually believe this theory then or just trying to be funny? |
No one's forcing you to keep replying though are they?
Which is it for you then? You've got super spider hearing and can hear and identify all the movement behind you and predict what they're going to do next? My cat can about manage the first although he can twist his ears around but he's not a keen skier so it's a bit wasted. Or are unaware the other people on the slope until so they're so close you can hear them?
| uktrailmonster wrote: |
| Hearing is 1 sense. I'm not stupid enough to rely on it as my only alarm system. I'm amazed you can't hear other slope users around you or at least comprehend that others might be able to. If I hear someone close by, I take a glance in that direction to check what's going on. Simple. |
Simple indeed, I'm aware where other skiers are long before I can hear them well enough to isolate one from another, all this silliness and bluster being posted doesn't alter the fact that no one hears well enough to make that distinction until the other slope user is a couple of meters from them and it's all a bit late to do much by then.
If you're having these near misses or outright collisions, and I'm not, then maybe you need to look around a little more and assess what other people are doing?
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| Quote: |
no one hears well enough to make that distinction until the other slope user is a couple of meters from them and it's al a bit late to do much by then.
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That's the whole point of the disagreement. Not many people cares about the skier half a mile up the hill. It's the one who's a couple meter behind (or shall I say a metre too close) that one CAN hear and CAN do something about!
"a bit late to do much by then"
You can turn away!!!
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You know it makes sense.
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I would prefer to be on the same slope as someone that has regard for others, and if they impare one of their senses by listening to their ipods they are not conisiderate to others. I dont know if it is just that they are perfect skiers, lucky to have not seen an accident or just plain rude! We will no doubt all have our own opinion.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Those that dont listen, can't hear.
No good for a high speed collisions, but audible sounds can be useful in situations such as narrow, flatter runs where low differencial speed, close proximity, overtaking manoevers are commonplace.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| ise wrote: |
Simple indeed, I'm aware where other skiers are long before I can hear them well enough to isolate one from another, all this silliness and bluster being posted doesn't alter the fact that no one hears well enough to make that distinction until the other slope user is a couple of meters from them and it's all a bit late to do much by then.
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Have you got rear view mirrors then? I don't tend to ski looking backwards, but that's just me. The only time I look behind is when stopping or before making a sharp turn across the slope for some reason. I must have superhuman hearing too, because I can hear things more than a couple of metres away. We all have our own experiences, so no need to blow a fuse when others don't agree with yours.
For example you keep insisting that none of us are at risk of a collision (based on your own experience and a Swiss survey). Now if that was true, then there are a lot of very unlucky posters on this thread, especially my poor wife.
Then you insist that hearing is a totally ineffective sense when it comes to avoiding accidents. Again, this could be true in your case. You could be deaf for all I know. But again, several posters disagree and find that hearing is useful on the slopes, but they must all be wrong simply because it doesn't fit with your personal experience.
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bloxy
bloxy
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At the risk of getting embroiled in this heated argument.
Statistics do show that skier/skier collisions are a relatively small contributor to skiing injuries but......
Having skied for 25 years and done an average of 4 weeks a year on snow and skied all sorts of slope on and off piste in all sorts of conditions and never been in collision with another skier, the most scary skiing I have done was this year in Avoriaz.
Skiing with my friend's 7 year son and 4 year old daughter on crowded blue runs full of out of control numpties who think because they go fast they are good when they couldn't make a turn if their life depended on it was truly frightening. I have never felt so exposed or vulnerable. So how must it feel for a beginner/intermediate?
I feel much safer hiking up a peak to ski an exposed face where I make the decisions and I am in control(as far as the snow and the mountain allow) than I do on a crowded blue where I have no control over the action of those around me!
The perceived risk for someone like me skiing on the sort of terrain I normally ski is completely different to that experienced by a skier who normally skies on crowded beginner/intermediate pistes.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| bloxy wrote: |
Skiing with my friend's 7 year son and 4 year old daughter on crowded blue runs full of out of control numpties who think because they go fast they are good when they couldn't make a turn if their life depended on it was truly frightening. I have never felt so exposed or vulnerable. So how must it feel for a beginner/intermediate?
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That reminds me of another little incident I happened to witness last season. I was skiing with some friends and their 5 year old grandson. One of those numpties managed to ski into the poor little kid on a busy green run and knocked him over. Luckily nobody was hurt, but the cheeky git then tried to blame the accident on the child.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| ise wrote: |
| alex_heney wrote: |
| ise wrote: |
On the other hand, anyone complacent enough to believe they can identify and localize the sound of an oncoming skier or 'boarder with enough time to react is someone I'd prefer not to share the slope with personally. |
How on earth cabn you come out with that ridiculous comment? |
Anyone that's relying on an preventive measure that's not going to work could be termed complacent.
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I totally agree.
Now if you could kindly show where anybody has been stupid enough to suggest that somebody can rely on hearing getting them out of trouble, I will accept your point.
| Quote: |
What is it you're all claiming? That from a variety of noise behind you can tell the number, speed, direction of oncoming slope users and what their immediate intentions are? Or that unless you hear something you're unaware of other slope users? That's not normal human hearing, it's super spider hearing sense |
Nobody is claiming either of those things.
What is being claimed is that hearing is one of the senses we use to determine what is going on around us.
Anything that cuts out or reduces the effectiveness of any of the senses we use for that must reduce our awareness.
That is all that is being claimed.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| ise wrote: |
Simple indeed, I'm aware where other skiers are long before I can hear them well enough to isolate one from another, all this silliness and bluster being posted doesn't alter the fact that no one hears well enough to make that distinction until the other slope user is a couple of meters from them and it's all a bit late to do much by then.
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Will you please stop these straw man arguments.
NOBODY is suggesting that could be the case.
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bloxy,
Your apprehension of the risk at a busy blue is not alone. Your post describes the inccident in Avoriaz. Is your experience the same in countries other France?
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bloxy
bloxy
Guest
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| saikee wrote: |
| bloxy, Is your experience the same in countries other France? |
Well in 25 years of skiing and well over 100 weeks on snow, I've skied France and USA (also 2 weeks in Canada) so I don't have wide experience of other countries!. Undoubtedly the pistes in France are more crowded day to day than in the US. The real difference for me was skiing at the speed and style (slowly zig zagging) of a beginner down a blue whilst accompanying the kids. Normally I would probably only be on that sort of slope to get home at the end of a day and skiing down the edge in the fall line and making sure I avoided everyone else. Which is why I say the perception of danger from other skiers changes by where you are and how you ski. If you see what I mean.
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Ise,
alex_heney and Frosty the Snowman have explained clearly why hearing is an important tool in being aware of your surroundings..
As they said, it is only one of the tools and nobody can rely solely on that..believe or not, we also keep our eyes open! 
Two high speed boarders/skiers..yeah..they'll hear each other when it's too late... Beginners: they're slow enough to have time to react to what they hear..
You complain about erratic behavior: i am sure there are indeed some idiots out there, but a lot of erratic behaviour comes from beginners with little conntrol over what they do..we've all been there and they got as much right as you to be on the slope. Therefore you got to be prepared for it. If you're uphill you go well wide of those people, if you're downhill you use your eyes AND ears to make sure some nothing is coming your way... And just in case you are going to say that erratic means you can't predict, true but if you are as aware of your surroundings as you say, then you should be able to detect potential "erratic" skiers stay clear of them..
I could predict hilarious (or not!) consequences if we were to throw a whole bunch of mixed abilities skiers down a busy slope with all of them having their hearing impaired...
If you think you don't need your "ears" then go on as you are but you are the complacent one...
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Kruisler, I believe that ise does a lot of off piste skiing and some touring. In that scenario I would imagine that collisions with other skiers to be a negligable risk.
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Frosty the Snowman, he sure does. Provide you are the master of envy, his site is worth a regular visit. I have trouble with envy- so I don't go to the site too often!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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achilles, I don't do envy either, but then I do love the photos and to a certain extent the "blog" dairy, which is fairly unique.
I check into http://mysnowsports.com/index.php?name=Blogs each week to see what has been posted. Some great stuff, but as said, ise's photos are usually breathtaking.
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You know it makes sense.
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Frosty the Snowman, a perfect analogy. I also see many cyclists in London wired up to their music - that strikes me as being very dangerous.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Frosty the Snowman,
As said, I did presume this debate was for (crowded) piste skiing...I don't see that it can be relevant for off-piste skiing ...
As per Hurtle's comment, your analogy is perfect, and I did bike in London with my headphones on once....never again! 
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Barry,
Sincere condolences on your friend's injury. That's an absolute tragedy.
That said, while your attitude to safety equipment is totally understandable, I'm not sure that it's particularly well thought-through. Here's what I mean:
(by the way, I wear a helmet for cycling and most skiing (not ski touring). I tend to wear one for climbing but it depends on the conditions)
1. I have not seen any good statistical evidence that wearing a helmet has reduced the frequency and/or severity of skiing injuries. Have you? Most of our opinions on the subject tend to be driven by anecdote - "I've been skiing for years and never banged my head", "my friend cracked his helmet on some ice, thank god he was wearing one). On the statistics front, Australia made the wearing of helmets compulsory when cycling (I'd have thought more dangerous than skiing for head injuries although I don't know for sure). Since then there has been no decline in the rate or severity of head injuries. Given the lack of powerful evidence in helmets favour, I can't see how it would be right to remove freedom of choice here.
2. You say that it is stupid to argue that people take more risks when using safety equipment. I'm afraid that I think you are wrong. "Risk compensation" is a well known phenomenon. Those of us who wear helmets need to guard against it. I know myself that I tend to ski a bit faster in a helmet than without one. It needs watching. This argument taken to extreme leads you to the point of view that we should have spikes in the middle of our steering wheels. Clearly that's silly but I'm certain drivers would leave more distance, drive slower and be more observant if they KNEW that a crash would be fatal. I know that I am much more hazard aware (anticipating danger, precautionary road position, etc) while cycling than when driving because the consequences of an accident are likely to be much more serious for me.
3. Despite all that, I wear a helmet. Why? Basically because I flatter myself that I am able to control my risk compensation to the extent that there is a safety benefit. I say flatter myself because at the level of the whole population, there is little evidence that people, on average, are able to do this. I also think that helmets make minor incidents a deal less painful. In fact I suspect this is most of the benefit - I believe that they may safe me cuts, bruises and headaches but I doubt they will save my life in a really bad crash. I'll also admit that there is an element of fashion with ski helmets - experienced skiers seem to wear them these days, I want to fit in.
4. Skiing is dangerous so safety equipment should be compulsory? Not at all. Where do you draw the line? How about limit the steepness of terrain that can be legally skied, ban tree skiing, impose a 5 mph speed limit, make people wear a padded suit? Everything has to be considered on a cost/benefit basis and mandating things is only reasonable if there is a truely compelling base of evidence that A the equipment makes a significant difference to safety and B its costs (financial, freedom, comfort) are not substantial. We need more than anecdotes for this. Beyond this, is skiing really that dangerous? I don't think piste skiing is particularly dangerous comapred to rugby, football and squash (and don't even think about mountaineering). Given they are more dangerous than skiing what should we be doing about them? I believe that taking and managing risk is a fundamental part of being human. I recognise that I should be stopped from taking unnecessary risks with other people's lives/health but should the state prevent me from risking my own life? Generally not.
Again, please accept that none of this makes me any less sad about hearing about your friend.
J
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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jedster, Wow a balanced argument. You don't see those very often on a helmet thread.
I agree (almost) entirely. The "risk compensation" part is the only thing I'm not convinced about. Although it probably applies to nervous beginners and some idiots. I don't ski any differently with/without helmet. If a helmet gives a beginner a bit of confidence, that's probably a good thing too. It would be a bit patronising to presume they think a lightweight helmet would make them invincible. But again personal experience. If I suddenly started taking big irrational risks simply because I was wearing a helmet I'd ski without it.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Great post!
Regarding the risk compensation, it's definitely true FOR SOME. I believe more so for those who think "not wearing helmet is madness" crowd. They have so much faith in helmet it's easy to get into a false sense of risk compensation.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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jedster, Excellent post, and IMO true and accurate. Then again the odd troll may believe you are talking bunkum, as we have heard there are "lies, damn lies and statistics".
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jedster, I think that post should be 'framed' and put on the topic board, with the title: 'please read before entering this thread - danger of safety discussion'. Sums up a number of threads recently very well.
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did you really say, Yes I tend to ski quite fast, but stay well in control and always give people room. But those times when the pistes are busy, the lack of control many people ski with is quite appalling.
that is such a rude thing to say,
the lack of control some people type with is quite appalling
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| shorty wrote: |
did you really say, Yes I tend to ski quite fast, but stay well in control and always give people room. But those times when the pistes are busy, the lack of control many people ski with is quite appalling.
that is such a rude thing to say,
the lack of control some people type with is quite appalling |
Have you never seen these numpties I'm being rude about then? Should I be more polite about them in future?
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I am a recent convert to the helmet and I must say I will never go skiing without one again if I can at all avoid it they're brilliant.
I do have a query about body armour though. I normally wear a camel, with water pack and a few other bits and pieces in the ruck sack. I've always thought that this offers good enough impact protection for my back area. What do people think?? Is body armour that effective over say having a regular ruck sack on your back???
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FAQ
. Oh, and I had an awfully near miss when coming up over the brow of a hill to find the entire piste almost blocked by shoulder-to-shoulder Italians (I think) having a chat. I was going to fast to stop (so my fault) and managed to ski through what looked like an impossible gap - and heard on of the stationary skiers give a yelp of surprise. But that was all a long time ago. Coming off chairlifts has been another matter (as Ray Zorro could tell you) but I don't think you were thinking of that sort of incident. Maybe I have been lucky, and maybe I am tempting fate, but whilst I have had my falls, collision has been very rare.
) I would give would be the playing of very load music on a busy motorway (in ones car of course, didn't mean Deep Purple doing a set in the fast lane). I find this off putting as I need to focus 100% on the driving task and am also keen to listen for audible warnings from other road users.
