 Poster: A snowHead
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offpisteskiing,
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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if having dependants should influence participation. I think it should, but each to his own.
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For those who has the skill to participate, those who think it does would stop participating. Those who don't think so will continue to participate, with or without the understanding of their "dependents".
Those who don't have the skill to participate, are in no position to say whether it "should" or should not.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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What the films dont show is the amount of time that is spent scoping these runs / jumps out and the risk assesment etc...they dont just go up to the top and fly down. Its all calculated. The skill level is also incredible so the risk in skiing some of that terrain is not as high as you'd imagine. FOR THEM. Its all relative.
Combs dies doing what he loved best, and thats how a lot of these people live their lives and that is their choice.
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abc, why not? If people didn't die with regularity I and everyone else wouldn't think it dangerous and all would simply show a casual disinterest in the activity. If people die with regularity it's dangerous to those who have the skill to participate so we all admire their courage, prowess and wonder about their selfishness. You make judgements on all sorts of things all day long - I consider this no different except to the partial.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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abc,
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Those who don't have the skill to participate, are in no position to say whether it "should" or should not.
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This looks as though you are saying people who don't have in-depth knowledge of something have no right to comment on it. RIP snowHeads is all I can say to that!  In your enthusiasm for this activity, which is perfectly understandable, you are travelling up a logical blind alley.
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rayscoops, actually seems to me the most important thing that's been agreed here is the acknowledgement that this is dangerous whoever you are and doing dangerous things carries increased risks which must inform sensible decisions 
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rayscoops, slikedges, none of what either of you says has, so far as I can see, been agreed. So what? Long live snowHeads!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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This looks as though you are saying people who don't have in-depth knowledge of something have no right to comment on it.
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There's a different between "comment on it" and calling them idiots that qualify for Darwin awards.
And the difference is particularly significant for those highlighted above...
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| slikedges wrote: |
| abc, why not? If people didn't die with regularity I and everyone else wouldn't think it dangerous and all would simply show a casual disinterest in the activity. If people die with regularity it's dangerous to those who have the skill to participate so we all admire their courage, prowess and wonder about their selfishness. You make judgements on all sorts of things all day long - I consider this no different except to the partial. |
My point being perhaps we shouldn't (make judgement on all sort of things we don't know much about).
Just to clarify, I have no problem of anyone "wonder about their selfishness". But wondering isn't making judgements. It's only the judgement without knowledge part that I have trouble with.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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abc, wondering about their selfishness is making a judgement. Whether we should or shouldn't, it's human nature, we do it, all day long, and usually reasonably accurately - I particularly don't think it's too difficult when something is obviously so dangerous. Have you seen the current avalanche vid thread? Not easy to be dispassionate and objective when you're stoked (unless you're a robot) = possibility of mistake even if seasoned and skilled pro.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I noticed this blurb over on the Wombles' website
> It describes how extreme, big-mountain skiing took hold in Jackson Hole in the 1960s, when Bill Briggs decided to try skiing in the Grand Tetons, something that no one at that point had ever tried. Not long afterwards, European skiers were trying the same thing in the French Alps.
Incidentally Briggs skied Grand Teton in 1971. I'm not sure there is the linkage implied in this article. You could just as well argue that Lionel Terray and Bill Dunaway's descent of the north face of Mont Blanc was the start of big mountain skiing... or the 1965 descent of the Davin in the Ecrins massive (only the guys who did that didn't go around telling everyone about it). Or Saudan's descent of the Spencer.
The major limiting factor up to Terray and Dunaway descent was equipment - cable bindings and long wooden laminate skis such as the Rossignol 41. The Davin was skied on the X.33 which is one of the first modern skis.
Regarding the death rates, they are actually quite low. The golden age from 1967-1977 was ended by one significant death - that of Heinz Holzer in 1977. Other practicants died in other activities, Vallencant climbing, Terray (from another age) climbing, JMB in a controversial base jump accident while filming for TF1. Of the class of 1975+ Tardivel and Shahshahani are still skiing at a high level. Chauchefoin and Cachet-Rosset no longer ski. Baud and Poencet still work as ski instructors. Of some other names Dede Rhem died in an avalanche but many are still going. I would say the death rate is fairly low, at least amongst the extreme skiers who actually know the mountains and know how to ski rather than chancers with a death wish. DC's death illustrates the price of a mistake but also how few mistakes these guys make.
Last edited by And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports. on Sun 23-12-07 18:38; edited 1 time in total
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Or how about Charlet & Roch on the South face of the Aiguille du Plan in 1925...wooden skis without metal edges...leather boots...and b*lls of steel...!
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You know it makes sense.
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| offpisteskiing wrote: |
| Or how about Charlet & Roch on the South face of the Aiguille du Plan in 1925...wooden skis without metal edges...leather boots...and b*lls of steel...! |
yes, a very good example of two very good guides and don't forget the 1905 Chamonix Zermatt haute route.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Yep, there's definitely certain milestones in steep skiing, but I don't think anyone can really lay claim to inventing it...
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Poster: A snowHead
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| slikedges wrote: |
| abc, wondering about their selfishness is making a judgement. Whether we should or shouldn't, it's human nature, we do it, all day long, and usually reasonably accurately - I particularly don't think it's too difficult when something is obviously so dangerous. Have you seen the current avalanche vid thread? Not easy to be dispassionate and objective when you're stoked (unless you're a robot) = possibility of mistake even if seasoned and skilled pro. |
I think it's healthy to "wonder" about things we don't know a lot. That might actually lead to LEARNING something about it. That's how we human as a race progress.
But making a judgement, in my vew, is a CONCLUSION. That, can not be done without adequate knowledge, which usually comes when one "wonders" about it.
Perhaps we reach the point of agreeing to disagree?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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To have an opinion is one thing but to be judgemental and insulting is another. To have an opinion on extreme skiing (or any extreme sport) merely requires knowledge and understanding but to honestly stand in judgement requires a more intimate experience of the activity one is judging
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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rayscoops, having an opinion is making a judgement not standing in judgement - I have no jurisdiction and it is of little concern to me either way. I certainly haven't been insulting and I'd hope you are not accusing me of that.
abc, I think we'll have to.
davidof, what do you mean by fairly low? Is this the dangerous activity despite being suitably prepared in equipment, temperament, fitness, skill, knowledge we should all be in awe of or isn't it? Should we have any respect for these men? Could we all be skiing scary-looking first descents safely if only we were just prepared to work at it?
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To say something is dangerous is having an opinion, to say something is dangerous and should not be done is being judgemental. To be judgemental in this manner one needs to be at the level of those participating in the activity. To call someone an idiot or brainless in respect to someone conducting their given sporting activity is insulting. This is my opinion on various posts generally and not my judgement on any in particular
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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To say something is dangerous is having an opinion, to say something is dangerous and should not be done is being judgemental. To be judgemental in this manner one needs to be at the level of those participating in the activity. |
Well said, rayscoops. 
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| slikedges wrote: |
davidof, what do you mean by fairly low? Is this the dangerous activity despite being suitably prepared in equipment, temperament, fitness, skill, knowledge we should all be in awe of or isn't it? Should we have any respect for these men? Could we all be skiing scary-looking first descents safely if only we were just prepared to work at it? |
It is a highly dangerous activity, Doug Coombs was one of the best skiers and mountaineers of his generation and was killed however looking down a list of pioneers of French extreme skiing from the 70s to 90s most are still alive, some died in other extreme sports and a few died in avalanches with relatively few dying in falls.
It is up to you whether you are in awe or not. Seeing Coombs ski is a thing of grace and beauty I think.
As well as the technical baggage experience is a huge factor, experience from skiing throughout the year over a long period. Experience that tells you exactly what snow you will encounter at a certain altitude, slope orientation, time of day, angle etc.
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Also to no-one in particular it's my judgement that it's obviously asinine to feel unable to judge when given a reasonable level of information when one isn't at the level of those participating. Or maybe we should get rid of courts and competitions. But judge can be such an emotive word, spinning all sorts of unwanted connotations when used perfidiously.
davidof, thanks to you and offpisteskiing, as expert opinions, for being scrupulous in acknowledging this [that truly extreme skiing is a much higher risk activity, even for the pros, than recreational skiing].
edited to clarify
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I think you guys need to think a bit deeper.
1. Glen Plake quote ' Everything I have in my life is from skiing, everything I've earned, every dollar'
This puts the dependant discussion in perspective as this guy looks after him and his others from his lifestyle and all he is trying to do is his perception of being the best.
2.Now alot of these people are in this way of life long before having dependants and it can not be right to be forced to make a choice in your life either stop doing what you love or stop any consideration of dependants.
3. I love people like this, to me they inspire complete reverance and awe even if as I also perceive this lifestyle as imbalanced and unnatural. I don't presume that I am right and they are wrong it is just the way each are.
4. It's all about perception. If you remove death then there is nothing else that the anti- arguments here hang upon. I know avoidance of death is obviously an overiding human instinct but I appreciate that for many this is something that can be controlled to open up the mind to other ways of perceiving their existance.
5. The other strange point is that there is a complete hoo - haa here about these extreme actions but I am not sure that there would be the same issue if we talked about Everest summits? Is this because one is seen as a worthwhile and noble extreme pursuit and the other is seen as something that society 'drop outs' do?
A final thing to consider is where does it stop ... is there anyone here who when they have pushed themselves on a mountain and gone that little bit further doesnt feel that it was worth it (that step up from snow-plough to parallel, red to black, piste to off piste etc).
Also once you pass that threshold of being a recreational skier to being an extreme skier do you think you could ever turn back or slow it down!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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5. The other strange point is that there is a complete hoo - haa here about these extreme actions but I am not sure that there would be the same issue if we talked about Everest summits? Is this because one is seen as a worthwhile and noble extreme pursuit and the other is seen as something that society 'drop outs' do?
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Yeah, riiiight. "Because it's there" being the reason.
But wait a minute, the glory of the empire was riding on that summit! Or, was that the South Pole? 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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abc, the glory of the Empire is always on the line dude! Now come over to the dark side!
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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So the whole problem being, those "idiot" extreme skiers didn't get the Queen's (i mean the explorer's club's) blessing before they jump off the top.
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abc, Yes it is the product of general perception. How are these guys idiots ... how is the guy who is officially sponsored by Red Bull, has an all expensese paid lifestyle, is a star of a documentary made by Sony and generally viewed as an innovator in extreme skiing (his profession).... an idiot?
Is this more or less of an idiot than a guy who smokes 20 a day? Is this more or less of an idiot than the guy who bicycles home through London after 2 pints? More or less than the guy who drives at 100mph on the motorway in rainy conditions. Or even more or less of an idiot than those whom live an average life that they don't enjoy just for the benefit of their dependants?
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You know it makes sense.
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plectrum, "idiot" wasn't my choice of words. I admire them, AND their choices, having dependent or not. Plus, I get to enjoy, in a theatre, their skill and exploit! In addition to that, they're often the ones who pushd (and tested) new advances in equipements that would some day make my snow enjoyment better.
But to be fair, the arguement here wasn't about comparing them to the 20 cigarett a day smoker, but the on-piste only snowheads.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Jezz - what the hell would you all think of the high altitude climbers pushing the envelope?
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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abc, In that comparison well I am sure there are advantages to being Bode Miller to that of Shane McConkey but although i am impressed by the skiing of on-piste greats seeing a skier on a 50o slope hit a ramp and base jump to safety has my complete awe. If I was given the option by God of being either I would be a Bode' because it is more akin to my kinda lifestyle but deep down there is an unfathomable respect created from the actions of individuals such as McConkey (oh yah also becuase I'm a wimp whose scared of death!)
On top of this I feel that being on a crowded red run and seeing a avg skier out of control and at speeds which will cause grave injury on impact evokes much greater 'idiot' feelings than viewing these extremists.
BTW whatdo you think of Terje's first descent clip I posted .... 'Wow' or 'Idiot' ?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Bones, I've watched it about 20 times and it is amazing. Just the contemplation of buckling up on that ridge fills me with fear and awe let alone the actual descent!
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plectrum, that was awesome  And I'm not even a snowboarder...
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Timmaah, I like the fact that one of the 1st Descent team is Shaun White i.e. Olympic boarder but still hands it out with the extreme!
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Just watched the film. Bit too much dialogue but the action scenes were amazing. The first 20 mins or so are about a very old descent of which there is no film, quite dull. Think the best bits were about the film from the 80's 'Blizzards of ahh' if I remember the name , great skiing scenes but even better fartbags.
Overall, not enough skiing scenes and too much talking.
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brian
brian
Guest
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btw, this has just turned up on FilmFlex, the Virgin media movies on demand thingy.
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brian, indeed it has - and watched it last night. I had a feeling there might be a discussion about it somewhere....  I think it was pretty North America biased, but not too detrimentally.
How ironic that Doug Coombs, who set up a heli skiing company in Valdiz, Alaska with his wife and moved to La Grave to slow down and ("one of the last natural frontiers for skiers") to get away from becoming blase about the dangers of the type of skiing he was doing in Alaska, should perish trying to save the life of someone he was out skiing with.
Anyway some great footage and interesting hearing many acknowledge the risks of pushing what they do to the limit, but feeling the personal need to continue to do so.
It does p!ss me off when people start hand-wringing over the informed choices that others elect to take. It's not as if they're blind to the risks or the impact that their pursuits may have on their loved ones. As Doug Coombs mentions on the film, it's a question of whether would you rather die driving your car or falling off a mountain, given a choice. His widow echo'd the point, whilst obviously visibly upset at the loss.
People in all walks of life risk their lives for the benefit of others or themselves in someway or another. What gives anyone the right to question their motivation so long as that pursuit does not directly affect others, whether family/friends/associates/strangers. What a dull and uninspirational world we'd live in if it wasn't for the achievements of some.
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