 Poster: A snowHead
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stewart woodward,
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If you work in France it is also part of the paperwork you have to complete before being accepted.
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Interesting point, often discussed over a an apre ski beer, where else would you willingly hand your kids over to a total stranger every day for a week, has an esf instructor ever been involved in anything dodgy with children?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| boredsurfin wrote: |
stewart woodward,
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If you work in France it is also part of the paperwork you have to complete before being accepted.
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Interesting point, often discussed over a an apre ski beer, where else would you willingly hand your kids over to a total stranger every day for a week, has an esf instructor ever been involved in anything dodgy with children? |
Or a Swiss, Austrian, German, BRITISH, instuctor ???????????
I complained about a Brit instructor, at a uk dry slope, a few years ago who only taught school kids & they all had to give him a kiss & cuddle each day!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Spyderman,
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boredsurfin, Her comes your explanation
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Thanks - that's made it much clearer. 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Spyderman wrote: |
CI = Club Instructor - Local artificial slope basic qualification. teaches up to Plough-Parrallel, Insured, CRB checked, First Aid.
ASSI = Artificial Slope Ski Instructor. Any artificial slope, all levels, Insured, No CRB requirement, First Aid. |
Surely the only reason there's no CRB requirement (and I think if that's strictly true it's probably only in England) is that any ASSI will have had the relevant checks when they went through the CI stage so will actually have a CRB already?
Surely the Scottish ASSI requires a CRB check given there's no CI stage?
| stewart woodward wrote: |
Or a Swiss, Austrian, German, BRITISH, instuctor ???????????
I complained about a Brit instructor, at a uk dry slope, a few years ago who only taught school kids & they all had to give him a kiss & cuddle each day! |
Shudder!!
How many years ago was this and is he (I'm presuming it's a he) still working?
CRBs have only come in relatively recently and are theoretically more rigerous than the previous police checks that were used as a matter of course in teaching for example (and CRBs can also take much longer to do). I think they're more widely used as well - partly due to a number of abuse cases that prompted this centralised system of checking. However, it only tells you if someone has been prosecuted and/or has a record so isn't entirely watertight because some people must get under the radar, at least until their first prosecution, but is anything 100% watertight!
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Spyderman, good summary perhaps you could add that to the WIKI for future reference
a few minor points to add, the CRB is NOT part of BASI 3. BASI now requires a half day child protection training class (which was very interesting and illuminating), the CRB is seperate and not part of the license, BASI do not ask for a CRB when issuing a license.
I believe also that since 2006 a BASI 3 must have a Eurotest pass to work as a stagierre in France test technique is not good enough. An ISIA can work with a test technique pass.
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CRB is required for all SSE instructor/coaching qualifications, and also for anyone else involved in an SSE ski club. Neither BASI nor SSS require one - I guess this is because Scottish law is different.
http://www.snowsportengland.org.uk/crb-176.html
I think it would be a good idea to introduce it everywhere, but would be a bit of a nightmare at the moment for instructors registered with all three as CRB's are not transferable and would need to be done for each one.
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Am I right in saying that you yourself as an individual cannot apply for a CRB? This has to be done for you by a professional "body"?
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| as CRB's are not transferable and would need to be done for each one |
Now that, is a pile of money making w@nk. Surely a CRB is a CRB is a CRB?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| iblair wrote: |
| I think it would be a good idea to introduce it everywhere, but would be a bit of a nightmare at the moment for instructors registered with all three as CRB's are not transferable and would need to be done for each one. |
Very true - I already have two of the blooming things and I have to admit the non transferability of them is exceedingly annoying, particularly when you're paying some silly fee (yup they aren't cheap!) for some bureaucrat to replicate another's work a few weeks or months before!
I agree that it should be introduced everywhere though but it strikes me they should rationalise the 'service' they offer because at the moment they're fleecing those of us who make more than one application.
| veeeight wrote: |
| Am I right in saying that you yourself as an individual cannot apply for a CRB? This has to be done for you by a professional "body"? |
Not necessarily a profesional body, for example you can aply via a local authority or university or any similar body can apply for one, you have to sign the relevant forms though so they can't just apply for one without you knowing so you do have to make theb application yourself but submit it via said organisation.
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| Now that, is a pile of money making w@nk. Surely a CRB is a CRB is a CRB? |
Well yes and no, in teaching IIRC a CRB expires after three months if you are not practicing, if you are then it's accepted as still valid, I presume it works something like that elsewhere too. I guess the principle is that they need to be as careful as possible so a three month cut off seems reasonable to me. However, having to make applications (and pay) for multiple copies of the same form within weeks of each other is a trice over the top IMHO and that's where it should be rationalised. I had a CRB done in March via Gloucestershire University (£40 IIRC), I have another application in at the end of this month via an agency I do some work with (£50 IIRC) and now I'll be making another application on the 27th of June for the CI/ASSI by the looks of it (another 40 or 50 quid down the drain I guess!) - now that really is a bit silly!
Last edited by You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net. on Thu 17-05-07 12:00; edited 2 times in total
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veeeight,
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Am I right in saying that you yourself as an individual cannot apply for a CRB? This has to be done for you by a professional "body"?
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You can apply, but you need to give details of the registered body you are applying to work for. They then get sent a copy of the details. I seem to remember you also need to have the form countered signed by someone who is qualified to check it for correct details. At our skiclub we have someone who has been on a training course who is able to check you have filled in the right boxes, etc, so you don't have to send off the originals of your passport/driving license/etc.
I think that the 'separate CRB for every position' thing is supposed to be for some data protection reason, but I think you have the real answer in your post!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| roga wrote: |
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| Now that, is a pile of money making w@nk. Surely a CRB is a CRB is a CRB? |
Well yes and no, in teaching IIRC a CRB expires after three months if you are not practicing, if you are then it's accepted as still valid, I presume it works something like that elsewhere too. I guess the principle is that they need to be as careful as possible so a three month cut off seems reasonable to me. However, having to make applications (and pay) for multiple copies of the same form within weeks of each other is a trice over the top IMHO and that's where it should be rationalised. I had a CRB done in March via Gloucestershire University (£40 IIRC), I have another application in at the end of this month via an agency I do some work with (£50 IIRC) and now I'll be making another application on the 27th of June for the CI/ASSI by the looks of it (another 40 or 50 quid down the drain I guess!) - now that really is a bit silly! |
SSE pay the fee if you are a volunteer instructor.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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stewart woodward,
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All levels on snow ? Don't think all levels is correct
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Ski Instructor Qualification does not have a level of skill at beyond which they are not allowed to teach, whether they would be given high end lessons by a ski school is a different matter.
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What does CRB stand for?
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You not knowing what the Criminal Records Bureau check is, further underlines the lack of equality between the home nation governing bodies, in that it is a SSE requirement, but not a BASI or SSS. I personally think it is a good idea.
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Not qualified to teach on Glaciated terrain
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Off piste on Glaciated terrain, or the use of Alpinism. Nothing wrong with teaching on piste on a glacier.
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Why do you have to be a ISTD to set up a ski school?
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Ask the French, but in France you also have to have ISTD to operate autonomously.
Which is why WSA and others operate in Switzerland.
I would be interested on your views on the original topic of BASI grade 4.
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stewart woodward,
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CRB is now part of Grade 3 Instructor level.
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No it isn't BASI now do a Child Protection module, about 2 hours, no Saturday morning of the middle weekend of the course. It is not a CRB check.
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You know it makes sense.
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roga,
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Surely the only reason there's no CRB requirement (and I think if that's strictly true it's probably only in England) is that any ASSI will have had the relevant checks when they went through the CI stage so will actually have a CRB already?
Surely the Scottish ASSI requires a CRB check given there's no CI stage?
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SSE if you have CI will already have your CRB. If you go straight to SSE ASSI you will need a CRB.
BASI & SSS have no requirement for a CRB check, however BASI now have a child protection module, which is not the same thing.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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CRBs don't last forever - you have to get them redone - every three years ?
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Poster: A snowHead
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Spyderman, I have had conflicting reports on the ability for BASI 3's to work as stagieres in France. I believe that you must have passed the Eurotest to do this and if you have an ISIA only the test technique. others have said a 3 only needs test techique but i believe that was changed last year.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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snow a BASI 3/CSIA 2 minimum, with a BASI 2/CSIA 3/ISIA level for autonomous instruction, and BASI 1/ISTD/Eurotest for kudos would be about the right pitch.
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slikedges, I would agree fully with that and add that ASSI/BASI4 should be min on artificial.
The level at where one considers having an adequate level of training to teach is debatable. There are of course great teachers at dry slopes at CI level and poor ones at BASI4 (and higher) but by setting the training bar higher and having a personal development and career path that rewards additional qualifications can only help make the overall standard of instruction better IMO.
I personally wouldnt have a problem with CI's acting as "stagieres", teaching beginners, being trained by senior instructors and having a set period to do their "apprenticeship" and advance to the next level or get out of the industry. If you have taught for 3 years say and couldnt pass to the ASSI level it begs the question as to how serious you take instructing and indeed your own technical performance level. In a small way mirroring what happens in the alps, in that there are a limited number of trainee positions available but ensuring a good supply of future instructors, but not impacting the living of the existing pool of instructors.
It would be interesting to get peoples opinion to gauge a rough idea how many dry slope teachers are at which level. Are they mainly CI's? or ASSI's, basi 3'sor what?
I believe the CI system is being abused by some slope operators as a means of lowering or eliminating wages. Indeed we have direct reports on this thread comparing Gloucester with some nearby slopes highlighting the difference in professionalism and the instruction received.
Having volunteers teach when they are being billed out to the unsuspecting general public is disgusting business practice in my opinion. Artificial slopes are businesses not clubs. If someone wants to donate their time that is fine but i dont think the slopes should be allowed to bill punters and profiteer from services rendered that they are not paying their instructors for. Volunteering to do school groups, race training, etc is all great but the public should be aware that if they are paying for a Ski Instructor that that is what they are getting.
I am not sure how you regulate this as Laundryman rightly pointed out. One way is for all qualified instructors to wear their badges and educate the punters that there is a series of levels of instructors that they are paying for. if they want more advanced instruction they should insist in a relevent qualification.
I could be wrong but i believe in France they allow a version of our Club instructors to lead and teach school groups if this is done on a voluntary basis, with no money changing hands, and only the group that they are affiliated with. This could be a good role for CI's here.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Spyderman wrote: |
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Why do you have to be a ISTD to set up a ski school?
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Ask the French, but in France you also have to have ISTD to operate autonomously. |
This sounds a bit misleading to me. To work autonomously i.e. freelance teaching as a sole trader, yes I can see that you would need ISTD. But if you set up a limited company and run the admin, do no teaching personally but employ ISTDs to do the teaching - i.e. "run a ski school" - that must be possible under EU laws, oder?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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I get the impression that EU laws don't really apply to the French when it comes to the ski industry!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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eng_ch, this came up on another thread and the conclusion was that under french law the ski school owner(s) must hold an ISTD. although that sounds ludicrous it apparently is true. The analogy is like Richard Branson having to be a qualified pilot to own Virgin.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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skimottaret, I know it came up the other day but even then I was dubious as to the conclusion. I can see that there would be restrictions on practising, but company ownership is surely a totally different matter and not subject to professional qualification. If a ski school were set up as a quoted public company, for argument's sake, there can surely be no way the ESF or sports ministry or whoever could stipulate that all shareholders had to be ISTDs. Sorry, the restrictions on company ownership side just doesn't wash for me because a company can have more than one activity in its remit. But that the *practitioners* should be qualified - absolutely.
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eng_ch, i agree 100% with you.... perhaps we need someone that acutally has the facts to confirm 
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skimottaret, I think you are being a little harsh with your criticsm of CIs - I'm not a CI BTW. As long as they teach within the framework of their qualification, then what's wrong ? The quality of the product they will deliver is as much governed by the ski school that they teach with, and the individuals themselves as to what's in the syllabus.
They way you get good a teaching - and plastic slope teaching is as much about teaching and observing as it is skiing, is by doing it and getting experience.
The CI course and assesement gives people a framework to start with suited for what they'll do - teaching beginners on plastic. Of course a recently qualified CI isn't going to be as 'good' as an ISTD with nnn years exeperience, but then neither would a recently qualified BASI 3.
I know of several CIs who make very very good teachers, but whose personal skiing won't get them through ASSI, but they give a very good service to the people they teach. What's wrong with that ?
As far as the money goes, I think that has more to do with how much the general public are prepared to pay for lessons rather than slopes trying to keep down wages.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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ski, perhaps i am being too harsh but i am only going by what I have seen personally and a few other postes seem to indicate the general standard isnt that high. in my view the ability of the lower end of the folks in the CI spectrum isnt good enough to qualify as a "ski instructor".
We can agree to disagree but if someone cant pass the ASSI or basi foundation course i am not sure they are able to effectively demonstrate "good" technique. Thats why i am all for a basi 4 level of teacher.
by keeping wages down the slopes are just making more money by having a cheap pool of labour, they dont seem to be lowering prices to punters.
the cheapest hourly rate for private instruction i have seen is £35 per hour, take off say £15 for equipment/slope rental if they were there on a recreational trip only the operators are still making £20 an hour with an employee that they pay £0 or £min wage. shabby....even if they throw in free skiing for the instructor.
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skimottaret,
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I have had conflicting reports on the ability for BASI 3's to work as stagieres in France. I believe that you must have passed the Eurotest to do this and if you have an ISIA only the test technique. others have said a 3 only needs test techique but i believe that was changed last year.
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My understanding is BASI 3 with test technique or Eurotest for stagiere status.
Eurotest can be done for any BASI grade. If you have the Eurotest you don't need the test technique. Obviously BASI Instructors from a race background would probably find the Eurotest pretty do-able.
Not sure on the requirements for BASI 2 ISIA with regard to speed tests in France.
BASI 1 ISTD requires Euro speed test anyway.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Spyderman, ISIAs need to do the Test Technique - gives 'Stagiere' status. Same as the 3.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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ski, Thanks for that. Wasn't sure.
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To add to the confusion and need for CRB's each 'organisation' has to be able to demonstrate that the organisation has carried out a CRB check itself, relying on a previous check is not acceptable.
Due to my previous job I had to be Positively vetted, sign the Official Secrets act etc. etc. BUT as I had to visit and carry out audits in part of a local authority childrens nursery I still had to be CRB checked. 
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You know it makes sense.
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skimottaret,
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We can agree to disagree but if someone cant pass the ASSI or basi foundation course i am not sure they are able to effectively demonstrate "good" technique. Thats why i am all for a basi 4 level of teacher.
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I've seen plenty of grade 3s that could apply to !
I think we'll have to agree to disagree, but given the limits of the qualification (up to basic swing - taken from the SSE website) - and supported by a professional ski school, I still think CI is a good start. Having the ASSI as a second step means that there is something to work towards within the SSE system.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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ski, Spyderman, I have an email out to New Generation to try to clarify the situation but they have published a guide that states clearly that BASI3's must pass the eurotest to get stagiere status. Stewart Woodward i think posted the same information at one time.
would your BASI contacts be able to shed light on this. kinda off thread but relevent as to BASI career path.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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As a newbie reading this thread a couple of things jump out straight away
The UK should have one and only one path to becoming and advancing as a ski instructor and this should be affiliated to the international body to help the instructors advance and gane employment. The UK being the UK I wont hold my breath
Its not too good that the CIs are not earning but conributing to their "employers " revenue however this is not unique to the ski industry, many pilots pay for thier own training and even work for free initialy to build their hours and experience. Perhaps the CIs should look at it experience building to get to the next level of the industry even if they willl remain at the artificial slope. Like any job if someone remains as a CI for many years there is a high risk they will become jaded and not as motivated this will ultimatley have a negative impact on them and thier clients.
I would hope that all instructors are encouraged to improve constantly and aim for the next level of qualification and profesional recognition. I suspect though that some of the UK artificial slope businesses cant see past the bottom lins and any change viewed as suspect
Interesting thread and I have learnt many things about Snowsports governence in the UK and sadly see that it is ridled with division and politics like most things these days. I have also learnt that there are a lot of commited people out there too
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Should that have read, people who should be commited? 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Gilberts Fridge,
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Perhaps the CIs should look at it experience building to get to the next level of the industry even if they willl remain at the artificial slope. Like any job if someone remains as a CI for many years there is a high risk they will become jaded and not as motivated this will ultimatley have a negative impact on them and thier clients.
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spot on
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| skimottaret wrote: |
Gilberts Fridge,
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Perhaps the CIs should look at it experience building to get to the next level of the industry even if they willl remain at the artificial slope. Like any job if someone remains as a CI for many years there is a high risk they will become jaded and not as motivated this will ultimatley have a negative impact on them and thier clients.
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spot on |
Not everyone has the opportunity & cash to take an extensive break/holiday to do a BASI qualification. This doesn't mean that they still can't 'contribute' as CI's. The fact that most CI's work for little or no reward is a good sign to me that they're motivated.
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Lets not lose sight of the fact that, whilst a CI may struggle to demonstrate the perfect snowplough turn, at the level of the beginner skier, we are not seeking 100% perfection.
As I tell many of my students, "we're not after a PhD in snowploughs here".
To re-iterate my view - a CI that can safely introduce someone to the fun of skiing through guided discovery and communicate and empathise with them, is worth far more than a skier with a technically perfect snowplough or plough-parallel. 
The pay thing - thats a whole different issue, and one that needs addressing. Like a whole load of injustices in this world!
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Demonstrations are important and if any instructor can't do the demo at whatever level they are at, Then they should in my opinion not be able to teach that. It should be near on perfect.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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And just how many people will be able to spot the difference between a snowplough turn demo that is a 6/10 and a 9/10 ?
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FAQ
