 Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Hurtle,
I don't think I saw the instructors disagreeing with each other...
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I'd have thought that if you either bend the knees or flex the ankles in isolation then chances are you'll end up on the floor in about 2 seconds flat. 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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eng_ch, to disagree you first have to understand 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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I can see this running.....
but flex the ankles if your guy says this you must do...and then have him tell you, you are in the right position.... or use anything else that gets you in the right position. Sooner or later, you are going to have to trust your body has the right position in memory. If you can't do this, you will always have problems.
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Frosty the Snowman, I'll have you know that this
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| if you either bend the knees or flex the ankles in isolation then chances are you'll end up on the floor in about 2 seconds flat. |
was the result of seconds of detailed research carried out recently standing by my desk
I'll get me coat...
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JT, in other words all descriptions, whether accurate biomechanical ones or personal mental triggers, are all simply a means to an end - the end being "feel"?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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eng_ch, Did that mean that you were alone in a small dark room?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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little tiger, Very helpful, but even I know that there are others here too.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Hurtle,
well easiski posted before the argument about ankles....
Are there others in this thread? I did not know anyone else was...
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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easiski,
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I guarantee you won't get any technobabble from me - ever. |
Ooh, lovely. I think you're going to be the one for me!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Hurtle,
well he did run a coaching program for years that produced successful results....
I'd rate him as one of the best... but i have interesting perspective
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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little tiger,
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I'd rate him as one of the best... but i have interesting perspective
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The mind boggles.. 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Hurtle,
I need to be taught differently - cannot sense body positions,cannot sense muscle tension,... My needs are not YOURS... or most of the rest of the worlds....
I need help to build whole new brain pathways...
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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little tiger,
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help to build whole new brain pathways...
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It's got to be one helluva ski instructor who can do that! But to be serious for a moment, you are obviously coping brilliantly well yourself at battling the problems to which you have alluded. You are highly body-aware, I am sure, even if in a different way from me. (Pilates - mat-based, not machine-based - some yoga, and singing have all helped to teach me body-awareness and, despite my relative ignorance, skiing too. But, as you imply, I don't have your specific problems, or at least not so far as I know.) And - I've said this before - you are patently much, much less lazy than I am. I would be a much better skier had I stuck at tuition in a more focussed way.
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| Hurtle wrote: |
FastMan,
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Flexing the ankle forward moves weight forward. Flexing the knees moves weight back. Those who have trouble getting out of the back seat can sometimes find resolution with the simple suggestion to stand up (extend the knees).
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I can remember being told - and actually do this - to lean against the front of my boots to get my weight forward. Is this, essentially, the same thing? |
Yes, essentially. Boots have a forward lean built into them, so just standing erect puts a skier in a pitched forward, fore balanced position. Leaning against the tongue of the boot can be a good prompt for getting a student forward, but just remember that there's more than one stance that will allow you to do that, and they are not all of equal quality. Ideally we are shooting for what I call a well "stacked" stance. By this I mean feet, hips, shoulder and head stacked in what is called vertical alignment.
Check out the montage at the top of this page;
http://forums.modernskiracing.com/index.php?showtopic=46&st=0#entry164
If you draw a line from my feet up through my hips, shoulder, and head you can see that all those body parts reside pretty close to that line. I'm in relatively good vertical alignment. In that montage I was demonstrating an aft balance drill; in other words, skiing with my weight on my heels. Because of that I have pressure against the back of my boots. If I wanted to ski in a more fore (forward) balanced position, I would have forward (dorsi) flexed my ankles more, tipping my entire aligned body forward, and applied pressure to the front of my boot.
Now imagine if in that montage I had flexed my knees more. This would have caused my hips to drop down and back. If this was all I'd done my fore/aft point of balance would have dropped significantly toward my tails, to the point that I'd probably been doing wheelies (tips raised right off the snow). To maintain the same state of fore/aft balance with my knees flexed like that, I would have had to compensate by bending forward at the waist. This position is the antithesis of a stacked stance. This is what I mean by different stances that can result in the same state of fore/aft balance. The one I just described (flexed knees and bent forward at the waist) can provide the same fore/aft balance state, but you ski very squatty, with the muscles being continuously over taxed. Such stances, while technically balanced, just make skiing harder than it needs to be.
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As you probably know I am very keen to improve. I will never be a skiing superstar and have no illusions about that. Carving is a complete mystery to me - I assume it means doing parallel turns without any skidding? But as parallel turns are still beyond my grasp.......! Myy current goal is to be able to deal with any blue run I come across with enough confidence to enjoy it, without any steeper or bumpier bits defeating me. If I never tackle a red, so be it!
I am in favour of BzK being a more serious area but supportive area, with a bit of good-natured light hearted banter thrown in along the way as long as it doesn't drown out the rest.
I need all the help I can get and try to get that from any source available to me; I have to say SH has been a great source so far - I do feel I can openly seek advice on here and to date nobody has made me feel uncomfortable - so thanks everyone for that.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| FastMan wrote: |
| This position is the antithesis of a stacked stance. This is what I mean by different stances that can result in the same state of fore/aft balance. The one I just described (flexed knees and bent forward at the waist) can provide the same fore/aft balance state, but you ski very squatty, with the muscles being continuously over taxed. Such stances, while technically balanced, just make skiing harder than it needs to be. |
...and this is where there may be some disagreement between certain instructors (although I hasten to say I'm not one). One highly respected instructor/coach who's done a lot for my skiing, and the trainers who work with him, is highly critical of the "stacked stance" for performance skiing. Yes it's very easy on the mscles, but is the antithesis of a dynamic response position, for which muscles and joints should be in their mid position (so ankles, knees, hips all partially flexed). When "cruising the blues" I may use a stacked stance, but anything with a bit of a challenge (going faster, cruddy snow, steeps etc) you're far better off in the more crouched "goalkeeper position" - as does pretty much any WC racer. But this is probably a different thread
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| veeeight wrote: |
| Personal opinion - Self taught skiers are, I find, the hardest to get to change their skiing. They also tend to be the ones that get the most frustrated at a higher level when they decide that what they are doing isn't working for them in some terrain. |
Yup, that's me 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| GrahamN wrote: |
| ...and this is where there may be some disagreement between certain instructors (although I hasten to say I'm not one). One highly respected instructor/coach who's done a lot for my skiing, and the trainers who work with him, is highly critical of the "stacked stance" for performance skiing. Yes it's very easy on the mscles, but is the antithesis of a dynamic response position, for which muscles and joints should be in their mid position (so ankles, knees, hips all partially flexed). When "cruising the blues" I may use a stacked stance, but anything with a bit of a challenge (going faster, cruddy snow, steeps etc) you're far better off in the more crouched "goalkeeper position" - as does pretty much any WC racer. But this is probably a different thread |
Glad you mentioned that. I'm one of those coaches with a foot firmly in each camp.
Different situations, terrain, conditions, demand different tactics. Remember, stance is not a static position, it's a dynamic process. So whilst I may start off hooning it on a smooth GS course in a stacked position, when the going gets tough with ruts etc. I will get into the locked down "Canadian Crouch" position to isolate the upper body, and let all my lower joints do all the work.
The biggest problem I see in aspiring skiers is that they *forget* to return to a neutral or stacked position, so end up totally knackered. But as people get better, they still don't "move" enough - so they end up trying to ski dynamically in a stiff position.
Best tip for moguls? MOVE Flex and extend those joints! and re-centre - regardless whether you are doing extension or retractions turns on top of the bumps - always recentre (re-stack).
Last edited by And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports. on Fri 18-05-07 9:36; edited 3 times in total
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FastMan, Thank you, that makes a lot of sense!
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You know it makes sense.
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I think I'm sort of with JT on this y'know. It's all very well discussing the mechanics of what each joint does but if you are going to remain balanced with your centre of gravity over the middle of your foot, any change of position in one below-waist joint surely effects a change the others? They can't help but be a factor of one another. So find the trigger that works for you, whether it be bend the knees, flex the ankle, drop the hips (thanks JT) - if you do that and remain balanced, then the other movement(s) will be concomitant, no? Assuming you have normal proprioception, of course.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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eng_ch,
Wassat?
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Poster: A snowHead
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Hurtle, as I understand it, spatial awareness of where your body is e.g. you can feel when you are out of balance, or that your hand is hanging by your side instead of up by your head
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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eng_ch, It is possible to remain balanced, AND be in a bad position/stance for dynamic skiing.
As long as you don't fall over, it can be said that you are in balance. After all, the forces are in equilibrium.
Someone who is 100% in the backseat is still in balance, providing they haven't fallen over. But are they in a good skiing stance? Are they in "good" balance? No.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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eng_ch, Ah.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| veeeight wrote: |
| The biggest problem I see in aspiring skiers is that they *forget* to return to a neutral or stacked position, so end up totally knackered. But as people get better, they still don't "move" enough - so they end up trying to ski dynamically in a stiff position. |
That's me! I've been working at it this season, and I think towards the end I was getting a more stacked neutral position. One exercise I did at the start of the season was to ski as quick as I dared (on a steepish blue) with my hands behind my back. I immediately felt that I was stronger in the turn, and looking at the video afterwards I was much more centred directly above the skis and 'banked' into the turn rather than angulated. But when the speed built up to scary levels the crouch came straight back in, and I felt very weak in the turns
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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easiski,
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I am seriously thinking of going a step further than getting your advice online and coming to Les Deux Alpes to get your tuition in person! Got to do a bit of saving up first
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Wow, I've now seen the Easiski review thread. I am DEFINITELY going to start saving!
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Hurtle, Re: your point about how rewarding/frustrating it can be to teach adults (or kids) with ingrained bad habits - it's rewarding if the peeps practise what they're asked to do, so that in the follow-up lesson they've moved on. I find it very frustrating when peeps don't practise, no-one can wave a magic wand all the time in one lesson! I do a lot of "updating lessons" these days for old school skiers, and that can be both rewarding and frustrating at the same time.  I'll look forward to meting you one day. 
You should not lean in the boots. You want to feel the tongues of the boots nearly all the time, but not actually lean on them. Having said that, that phrase does produce the right result in some people...... I would go further than FastMan, and say "stand up from the knees" - I find that works with most people. I've been trying "high thighs" mentioned on another thread, but to date haven't had any success with that phrase.
veeeight, I take your point, but I agree with eng_ch, that it's a question of personal triggers - I don't think it matters whether that phrase is actually correct, so long as the student understands what they're trying to acheive and that particular phrase works for them. In other words JT, understands what he wants to acheive (he's a strong skier, perhaps a little old schooly,) and it works for him.
I shall now go on to page 3 ....
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veeeight, True. However the majority of holiday skies are not in good balance or anywhere near it - sadly for them. It's actually quite easy to fix, but requires a bit of effort from the student in the way of specific practise. I agree entirely about the need to move, which is why I've now changed how I teach, so that (hopefully), the student acquires skills more naturally and never gets into the robotic skiing stance that so many who try to get it right exhibit.
I regularly have disagreements with GrahamN, about this, but I do think it's important to note that in competition skiing (Phil Smith's "goalkeeper stance" and so on), the lower body position does not come entirely from the knees, but from a squashing of all the joints. If you look at the WC skiers, they are more flexed at the ankle than most - moguls is a bit different of course.
Hurtle, Instructors on this thread are me, V8, Fastman and Comprex (not full time I think).
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easiski,
Thanks Charlotte, I'll take that as a compliment considering my total 1st reference was Stenmark. I'll still copy his turns from time to time as I find it easy as a start point, then you just add more weight to the inside ski, as you desire. For me, this is still useful as you can't do exaggerated turns on the one ski - the other is floating - if your weight isn't good.
Of course, it is important to know that a bend at the waist will not achieve anything unless the other joints follow. This is why people need someone to tell them.
For me it's still, all about a bend at the knees, or whatever trigger/ref you prefer, tilt the pelvis and have the shoulders over the knee for a good starting point.
From there, it is a case of watching the stance of a Slalom racer - I prefer slalom, Watch Raich..!!
Sometimes, you can try and re-invent the wheel, but its still a wheel. and as always it is always about stance.
But....... I do like the idea of not killing your thighs..thats tells you something, doesn't it..!!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| easiski wrote: |
| I regularly have disagreements with GrahamN, about this |
...but this is a post I can agree with unequivocally, 100%....etc.  - all the joints need to be engaged and active for this to work (and in my case I very rarely manage to execute what I'm attempting). You'll be glad to know that I seem to have been finding a bit more ankle flex lately - possibly helped by the new boots. The trigger for me was working out what to do to stop outside turns on one-foot flapping unedged down the slope.
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| veeeight wrote: |
| Personal opinion - Self taught skiers are, I find, the hardest to get to change their skiing. They also tend to be the ones that get the most frustrated at a higher level when they decide that what they are doing isn't working for them in some terrain. |
Interesting comment as i am self taught get quite frustrated easily as you say but a BASI trainer that taught me how to ski said she was self taught initially as well and tends to find that self taught people understand their bodies better and instinctively know what works and are more willing to drill out the inevitable bad habits. She may have been trying to eliminate my excuses for my lously performances however
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