 Poster: A snowHead
|
There was a study several years ago that concluded that the market and demand in the UK would support up to 12 indoor snowdomes. I'm afraid I can't recall where I read this though.
So far, we have:
Established:
Tamworth Snowdome
XScape Milton Keynes
XScape Castleford
XScape Braehead
In Progress, planning/building:
Manchester Trafford Chill Factor e
Wycombe Summit
Snoasis Suffolk
Hemel
Bluestone, Pembrokeshire
e&oe
Anymore? Corrections? I@m not too up to date on the status of the incomplete ones.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
| Quote: |
There was a study several years ago that concluded that the market and demand in the UK would support up to 12 indoor snowdomes. I'm afraid I can't recall where I read this though.
|
Its interesting how things come full circle.
Yad Moss, one of England's five proper skiing areas, was developed partly on the basis of a 1970s study of natural snow holding in the North Pennines.
Above we have reference to a study of potential indoor slopes. I have also seen a similar national strategy for dry ski slopes, published in the late 1970s I think.
Presumeably the next 'big thing' will be the development of snow, or a substitute material, that has a melting point well above freezing. Any strategy would then merely have to find slopes of suitable gradient and accessibility in each region. 
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
| FenlandSkier wrote: |
| I like the way he mentions "the reliable climate". What reliable climate would that be then? The variable and increasingly unpredictable Alpine one or the tightly controlled one in a snowdome. |
caused by having giant fridges built everywhere 
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
Roughly 1 million Brits take part in snowsports. It is a small addressable market.
Probably much less than a third of those are ever likely to visit regularly a snowdome.
I suspect the UK is unlikely to support profitably more than 10 indoor ski centers for the foreseeable future. We are already fast approaching saturation.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
|
cathy, If we can shift the hill I've got 10 acres that we might get planning on!!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
rayscoops, roga, sums up my argument perfectly so i wont reiterate, but will apologise for saying you are silly, poor choice of words...
veeeight, add XScape Lakeside, essex J30 (i think) off the M25 I have it from a reliable source construction to start Jan 08 for 12-18 months
EDIT should have said Jan 08 not 07
Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Fri 18-05-07 10:21; edited 1 time in total
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Whitegold,
| Quote: |
Roughly 1 million Brits take part in snowsports. It is a small addressable market.
|
Where did you get your information from?
Looking at the snoasis website they recon there are 4.6million skiers in the UK.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
extract from natives web page
Britain
...ready to ride
Milton Keynes Xscape, (more details and pics on the Snowdome)
Castleford Xscape, West Yorkshire (see report of our Fat Face Night Ski 2005)
Glasgow Braehead Xscape (opened April 2006)
Tamworth Snowdome, Staffs
...in the pipeline
Chill Factor, Salford, Manchester (due to open October 2007)
Hemel Ski Centre, Hemel Hempstead (opening 2008)
Sheffield Ski Village (due to open April 2007)
Snowdonia, Llanberis (500m long slope - Xscape rumoured to be partner)
SnOasis, Great Blakenham (planning permission for April 2006; opening date TBA)
Ski-Trac development, undisclosed location near London (announcement due summer 2007)
Winterpark Freeride complex, Cornwall (world's first purpose-built freeride slope)
...melted away
Medway Centre, Kent (now closed)
London Snow World, Beckton (due to open Autumn 2003 - now abandoned)
Anyone know what happened to the 'melted away' ones ?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| skimottaret wrote: |
Whitegold,
| Quote: |
Roughly 1 million Brits take part in snowsports. It is a small addressable market.
|
Where did you get your information from?
Looking at the snoasis website they recon there are 4.6million skiers in the UK. |
The total market hit 1.0M in 2003. To be precise, it is probably up to around 1.1M now 
http://travel.independent.co.uk/skiing/article33949.ece
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
Whitegold, tah, I bet that would be interesting for the anti snoasis campainers. 4.6M versus 1.1M is a pretty wide gap in market research 
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
|
10 years ago Hemel dry slope was attracting 70,000 visitors per year, much lower now though. I can't believe that only 1 in 60 people in the UK ski.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I don't know where the Independant got its figures from but my understanding is that a lot of the figures quoted for country visits are from the tour operators and the hugely increasing numbers of skiers travelling independantly are ignored by these figures.
I read somewhere possibly on 's that much of the revenue from these places are based on shop leases and that the skiing is a bit of a loss leader to get people through the door so they can charge more for shop space. On those grounds I don't think Braehead can be doing well many of the shop spaces are unfilled and the place has always been pretty quiet. The cinemas have not yet opened or hadn't last time I looked.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
|
^ As pointed out above though this can hardly apply to Tamworth where there's only the one shop, Ellis Brigham, so again I'd suggest that slope is definitely no loss leader!
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
skimottaret, oookay, very broadly so easy to pick holes in this,
a commercial/property/retail development has four main financial elements that need to be considered - land cost, development cost, finance costs and revenue (plus all the add ons like taxes, consulatncy costs etc. which could attributed to the relevant head of cost/revenue). The development costs have huge fixed cost elements irrespective of what is being built, such as the main infrastructer (roads, sewers and abnormals), utility supplies etc. for the project
The SnOasis, in addition to the snowdome would also offer a nine-hole golf course, 350 self-catering ski lodges, a 350-bed hotel, restaurants, bars and cinema. The plans include the construction of over 500 new homes with shops, community facilities and a new railway station.
The main revenue stream from this development will come from commercial (shops, bars & hotel) and residential (housing) elements. The 'extra over' marginal cost of providing a snowdome is minimal because the fixed cost (railway station, roads, sewers, utilities, consulatants etc.) have to be developed anyway, so the snow dome gets all of these 'services' free. To build an extra shed and lease it to a snow dome operator to fit out is really cheap, and for a snow dome operator to only have to fit out the facility is also comparatively cheap.
Basically, the letting of the commercial elements (shops) relies on estimated number of bodies through the door, so it finacially benificial to include recreational facilities that attracts people on an hourly basis (cinema, bowling alley, post office) because this inflates the 'headline' number of bodies through the door and the subsequent level of letting cost per square foot can be at a premium. The snowdome (for which you could read bowling alley, cinema or anything else similar) provides a benefit to other facilites (no ski lodges without the skiing !) for which the marginal cost of building it is worth while.
I am not aware of how Tamworth snow dome is set up (maybe free land? infrastructure?), but unless someone else is paying for or sharing the development costs, then a snow dome does not finacially stack up. If it did we woukld have loads of them already built on their own merit.
The WDA (Welsh Development Agency) or what ever it is called now subsidies developments in areas of Wales to attract overseas investment, but when the subsides run out, the overseas investors go , well, overseas again, because with out the subsidy it is not finacially worth while setting up industry in comparison with other countries. It is the same thing for enterprises like snow domes, unless they are subsidised in their conception, then they are not financially viable.
I would no be surprised if a snow dome was built in some where like Merthyr, becasue the land would be cheap/free, infrastructer would be in place and the benifit of having a source of employment would be part financed from the public coffers, but when the snowdome operator has to coff up ten years later for big fixed costs items such as replacing the main plant/machinery, only then we would see how viable it is.
Take Milton Keynes for example, it sound like they need a major overhaul of their facilities, which they would have already done so, if they could afford it - it makes sense. The have not done so which suggests that their revenue is unsufficient to finance it, so even on an operating basis it is probably struggling.
Simply put, if the snowdome was to be built on its own merits then it would not be financially unviable.
Can you have a good day there?, well unless you are learning or trying out skis (or doing some jumps etc) I think no, not on a regular basis. One or twice in the summer is fine but I doubt most people go there on a weekly basis becasue it is too limited and too expensive.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
| Quote: |
I am not aware of how Tamworth snow dome is set up (maybe free land? infrastructure?), but unless someone else is paying for or sharing the development costs, then a snow dome does not finacially stack up.
|
I would suggest that the main source of it's income is not from the ski/snowboard lessons, nor from recreational use. It's all the other slope activites, tubing, tabogganing, kids snowplay, ice-skating etc. etc. that gets bums on seats.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
rayscoops,
| Quote: |
| Take Milton Keynes for example, it sound like they need a major overhaul of their facilities, which they would have already done so, if they could afford it - it makes sense. The have not done so which suggests that their revenue is unsufficient to finance it, so even on an operating basis it is probably struggling. |
I don't believe there is any majot overhaul needed - what makes you suggest there is? I think perhaps, like many leisure centres/swimming pools, they may have an issue in the way in which they manage their maintenance. There's a fairly new leisure centre in Burgess Hill called the Triangle - the state of the place last time I went there when it had only been open a year was disgusting. Broken locks in changing rooms, rubbish and dirt all over changing room floors. And I thing one big issue may be to do with the type of staff - youngsters who didn't give a damn. So often there seems to be a lack of commitment on the part of the workers, and the bosses are just oblivious to it.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
|
veeeight, Just to add to the list, Cardiff is in the process of planning/building a "snowcentre" as part of their new sports complex although this has been stymied by their lack of success in attracting a supercasino. More from SKIREBEL magazine: http://skirebel.com/magazine/?p=784
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
rayscoops, while what you've said about income streams from these developments being greatly enhanced by accompanying commercial ventures is fully accepted for all such projects, imho if these projects can be successful in other countries it should be possible to execute them successfully here too - you paint too gloomy a picture. And what you're saying about MK is pure conjecture, isn't it?
Actually, lots of people go to the indoor slopes regularly, so they must be having a good time, unless of course you think they're all stupid or certifiable?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
b]rayscoops[/b],
| Quote: |
Take Milton Keynes for example, it sound like they need a major overhaul of their facilities
|
MK had design faults from day one, it cost £68m. The building was designed to use ski lifts from a different manufacturer, from the one's they ended up using, so the mounting points were in the wrong place, which means they can't run as fast as they should, plus they are unreliable. They underestimated the heating effects from all of the shops, restaurants, etc. below the snow slope. which meant that they couldn't make snow properly and the pipes were icing. The slope was 5 months late opening, then had all of the problems and went broke 3 days later, how much of the £68m was ever paid to the contractors, your guess is as good as mine. Lessons have been learnt and the slope does make money. though probably not if they still owe £68m.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
| slikedges wrote: |
| rayscoops, while what you've said about income streams from these developments being greatly enhanced by accompanying commercial ventures is fully accepted for all such projects, imho if these projects can be successful in other countries it should be possible to execute them successfully here too - you paint too gloomy a picture. And what you're saying about MK is pure conjecture, isn't it? |
Precisely, there are a small number of people, including rayscoops, who seem to be gleefully trying their best to talk down the various domes in the UK purely on the basis of personal opinion (or is it prejudice?), conjecture and wishful thinking - all on the basis of having presented no facts whatsoever, the best evidence being anecdote. Given the slopes are all operating, and I'd presume therefore solvent, businesses that have plans for extension and new building I'd suggest the actual available evidence is otherwise. If rayscoops and others really want to prove their points though and provide some proper evidence why not look into the company accounts to see what's what, if they're public companies they should be available should they not? I'll be the first to eat my hat (or should that be helmet!) if they prove to be as financially unviable as your unsupported (and I suspect unsupportable) conjecture leads you to argue.
As someone said above, if you don't like 'em don't go but you don't need to invent stories that they're "not financially viable"... unless of course you're a lawyer opposing the Snoasis project!
| Quote: |
| Actually, lots of people go to the indoor slopes regularly, so they must be having a good time, unless of course you think they're all stupid or certifiable? |
Me and my daughter for example - so are we certifiable rayscoops?
Actually I probably am! 
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I have no interest in the success or failure of any snowdome, although I do work in the construction/commercial development industry and have an general interest in what schemes are being developed. I have been involved with many schemes and their respective feasibility analysis all over the world, and nearly every capital investment scheme (railways/subways/toll roads etc.) is reliant upon adjacent/associated commercial/retail developments i.e. the infrastructer scheme (e.g. railway/snowdome) is the vehicle to allow the money making element of a scheme (condos/shopping malls etc.) to be approved. The commercial development can not be achieved without its snowdome/railway etc, and the snowdome/subway or whatever is not finacially viable on its own.
SnOasis estimates from the Economic Impact Assessment carried out by DTZ in 2005 on behalf of Suffulk Council
Cost of construction of snow dome element £150,000,000
Estimated direct annual operating costs of snowdome £ 3,000,000
(excluding any costs such as marketing etc.)
Expected direct revenue of snowdome £ 16,000,000
Expected level of Staffing 20 no.
Expected level of use of snowdome 30 % of capacity
Payback period (excluding interest payments) 10 - 40 years depending on sensitivity analysis
The above excludes any allowance for depreciation of plant/machinery, tax, interest charges etc.
Interest alone on the capital cost build would exceed any profit that the snowdome may make on a yearly basis
The snowdome is being built because it is a USP and it increases the number of users of the overall commercial, residential and retail development, not becasue it has a stand-alone financial viability. It is also a vehicle for achieving planning for the adjacent housing development.
In addition to this development, but hived off from the main risk, 550 houses are being built on an adjacent site that would perhaps generate a sales value of anything up to £200,000,000. This would result in a major profit being made 'up-front' (perhaps 20% of sales revenue), and is not reliant upon a 10 - 40 year pay back period.
The operator of the snow dome may well make a profit becasue they have not had to finance the sheme, but the development of a snow dome on its own merit is not finacially viable. 
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
saxabar, that web page reference is exactly the point I have made, I do not know the details but the article is quite clear that the 'snowbox' needed the casino to finance it, the casino is not going to happen so Cardiff Counil are looking to finace the snowbox by developing housing instead. If the snowbox was self financing and commercially viable it would be built on its own merit, but this does not seem to be the case.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
| Spyderman wrote: |
| 10 years ago Hemel dry slope was attracting 70,000 visitors per year, much lower now though. I can't believe that only 1 in 60 people in the UK ski. |
Babies, grannies and the infirm do not usually ski. The correct ratio is probably 1 in 50 or even 1 in 40.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| skimottaret wrote: |
| Whitegold, tah, I bet that would be interesting for the anti snoasis campainers. 4.6M versus 1.1M is a pretty wide gap in market research |
That 1M number appears to refer to active skiers and boarders. Those who actively participated in, say, the past year.
The 5M estimate may refer to the total number of persons who have skied or boarded at least once in their entire life. In other words, there are roughly 1M active and 4M inactive.
Either way, it is reasonably safe to assume that less than 10% of the total UK population has ever skied.
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
rayscoops, Judging by the look of the area, spare land has been sold off to retail businesses. Sensitively done it could be a stunning development. A case of a development being more than the sum of its parts and folk going for an afternoon out rather than just for utilitarian shopping/sporting purposes perhaps?
Apologies if this has already been discussed, but does anyone know if there has been a significant rise in interest in sliding since the opening of one of these developments, i.e. as well as having an established figure of X skiers per area, is there an established variable in which interest is expected to rise?
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
rayscoops,
That would be not far off my understanding. I have never been to Tamworth but I understand the commercial development around the slope is much less so maybe the capital cost there was much less tahn nowadays and development incentives were availed of. I have no doubt the gym at MK is much more profitable than the slope (though why anyone would choose to go to a gym in the middle of a city where parking costs are high is beyond me).
Incidently the same logic applies to ski resorts, at least in N America hence ASC, former owners of Killington etc recently going bust. If they can't build enough condos/chalets and flog them at high prices, and generate good turnover through shops, restaurants the business model doesn't really work. The continental European model may be different as I suspect that there is a lot more community interest in local ski lift companies and land access laws may work more in favour of the lift cos.
Of course once the thimg has been built a bankruptcy/administration and distress sale make things so much easier for the next owner :take Erotunnel as an example. Hence things may be fiancially viable going forward.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
I think once we've had the June trip those present ought to come back and report on whether we enjoyed a good days skiing in the snow dome 
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
Whitegold, I am sure you are near the right figure. I couldn't find it in the ski club archive/google but there is somewhere an annual report by one of the big TOs (? Crystal) which include the schools ski market and a guestimate of self-arranged trips, and I think it came out with something like about 1.5 million trips by UK skiers a year. I think it probably underestimated self-arranged travel and perhaps seasonaires but it was certainly in the 1-2 million ball park.
rayscoops, Not sure what your point here is. Yes - sometimes a facility may be used to draw customers into other attractions and there may be a loss-leader element. Also a property-developments rights/cross-subsidisation quid pro quo with a council might be offered to improve leisure facilities for locals as you imply. A lot of my family live in MK, and I pop into the excape building 2 or 3 times year and ski there 1-2 times a year. The centre is becoming more vibrant if anything with Evans cycles and Airkix now there plus a fair few restaurants. And there is the small matter of those domes running in Europe. It would be good to see some harder financial evidence that the place is going down the pan or that domes are not economically sustainable before going further down that line of argument.
Last edited by Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name: on Sun 20-05-07 19:18; edited 1 time in total
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
rayscoops, I guess my point was you seemed very negative to the notion that a snow dome could survive financially and therefore shouldnt be built. My view is the more the better for the skiing public. If they happen to be part of a larger leisure complex and the punter has other entertainment options so much the better.
But we have two examples of stand alone operations. Tamworth is not a big complex yet is operating successfully and we know that Hemel will be stand alone. So either they didnt do their sums right and will fail in your opinion, or, they recon there is room in the market for a provider of a different experience (or they got the land free or ....)
Spyderman reported that Hemel will rely more on instruction and courses as opposed to occasional recreational skiers for instance.
The more the better whether or not they are "stand alone" or loss leaders in a leisure/housing complex who cares as long as they are maintained well and provide a good service.
Having 3 domes near london should help improve overall skiing options to us in the Southeast.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
|
Re Hemel I'd guess some of their gameplan is around taking a slice out of MK's pie -its nearer to London and the southeast therefore would become the default option for those customers. As we've heard it doesn't seem like it would be hard for them to meet the level of past MK customer experience
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
Whitegold, stoatsbrother, just to clear up the numbers game, a very reliable consumer research organisation states that in September 2006 there were 1.6 million UK skiers compared with 0.5 million UK snowboarders and that 5% of adults in the UK have been on a dry ski slope.
If anyone else has access to Mintel, it makes very interesting reading!
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
|
I agree with the proposition. A good day's skiing is outdoors. It cannot be had indoors. A day skiing indoors may (for some) be better that other feasible entertainments but, comparatively speaking, it is not a good day's skiing.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
| Quote: |
the casino is not going to happen so Cardiff Council are looking to finance the snowbox by developing housing instead.
|
[rant]
Cardiff Council have shown absolutely no interest in and have given no support to the existing dry slope in the City.
Cardiff Council have allowed "developing housing" to spread "little boxes made of ticky tacky" over many of the green fields which once made the place worth living in. Now it's a shitehole like everywhere else.
Councils suck.
[/rant]
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Megamum, sorry, 'been raiding the Minibar  Just logged back on to delete my rant but you were there first! Ah well.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
|
Yoda, try raiding the minibar in Riyadh - that could bring on a world class rant.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
For the record I have never said that a snowdome should not be built; I have said that building big fridges does not sit easy with me from an eco point of view, and that snowdomes generally do not make finacial sense.
Snoasis is interesting becasue it is a classic example of how an overall property/commercial development (that people would not necessarily want) can be assisted by adding something that is not finacially viable but is desirable to the public.
Estimated use of snoasis is a bit over 30 percent, and this figure has been extrapolated from the existing snowdomes in UK.
All you snowheads should be out there using these facilities to safeguard them, becasue if we are using up all that energy and ozone anyway, atleast have some white stuff fun out fo it
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
FAQ
. I know of a very large green hill that just happens to be near me that would be ideal in helping with a natural incline. May be a slight visual impact though 
, what's your analysis of places like 
