 Poster: A snowHead
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No need to choose between instructor or guide, have both - & get it video'd at the same time! If I had the budget this is exactly what I'd be doing.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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spyderjon, just about to post the same thing. And having done three trips I can't recommend it highly enough. Learn about the snow conditions, safety aspects of glacier skiing and loads more from a UIAGM guide (who I think also does guide training) and have someone on hand to sort out your skiing. And even better, none of this skinning nonsense.
Unfortunately for certain posters the guide is Swiss, but at least he speaks French. Does this count?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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BGA, I reckon it should count - I've not done a Warren Smith course, but I hear a lot of good things about them.
Has anyone done the Doug Coombs ones? (La Grave, Verbier or Greenland)
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Wear The Fox Hat, have they still kept doug coombs courses going without him? 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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The guides I was skiing with in LG this year had both worked on Doug's courses.
These guys were both amazing skiers - completely different league to anyone I've skied with before. Pele (who runs Skiers Lodge) is a former mogul racer and winner of the Derby de la Meije (top to bottom in La Grave in 6.5 mins on tele skis - jawdropping)
That said, they had a few tips, but they were acting as guides so their focus was on getting guests to challenging sking safely. In terms of technique
I learnt more in a 2.5 hour private lesson I had last year in Zermatt.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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markymark,
Interesting that you learnt more in a 2.5 hr lesson. but then you did say, in terms of technique.
I guess we take some things for granted and accept that we have flaws but have skied round or through them.
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From recent personal experience of moving my skiing on I did a 3 week instructors course in Fernie, BC. Got the Canadian level 1 - not exactly a hard feat, but the instructors on the course were top notch. Pretty much took my skiing apart and rebuilt it somewhat better, way above the level1 standard. I was a pretty confideint skier before this, could tackle pretty much any slope, had done a load of off-piste with and without guides. The difference really is that I'm now far more aware of my own skiing, always looking to be self critical, much more aware of my weaknesses and strengths and can carve far better than I ever could. Since this course I've done more guided off-piste but no more pure technical lessons and I've not done any instructing, but still harbour thoughts to do so in the future.
I guess it's horses for courses on your best way forward, the instructor course worked for me, though 3 weeks of any good instruction would of probably had the same effect. I'm always looking to improve & my thoughts now are to do specific clinics say a race clinic, bumps, off-piste unless I take the instruction thing any further.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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BGA, MarkyMark mentioned in his post that he already skis with someone with BASI 2 tech under his belt which would be about the same level of training as most of WSA coaches as listed on their website. My only point about instruction in switzerland is to make sure you get an instructor that has the qualifications you are looking for and in his case i think he would benefit best from at least an ISTD and better still a Trainer. In france you know you are getting an ISTD level of instructor.
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Fair points, but as I see in my line of work occasionally possession of qualifications doesn't mean that you can actually do the job better than anyone else. Another factor that I have come across when skiing with non-native English speaking instructors is that if I have a fairly complex technical question the language barrier is an issue. This isn't an issue with Warren, even if he is from Hemel Hempstead.
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My experience of switzerland instruction isnt good. I had one lesson in Verbier at half term with a guy who told me on the lift teaches 3 weeks a year during the busy periods and i recon i was a better skiier than him. Nice fellow but if i had known that all levels of instructor can teach there i would have asked the ski school to ensure i had a more qualified/experienced person
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Yes that does happen, some of the ski schools in Verbier have a large number of instructors who work for them, but may only work at peak times. There is a fair chance of this happening at half term unfortunately. There are a number of instructors who work for the official school who are not of the highest calibre, although equally many of them are excellent. I would be surprised however if this problem is limited to Switzerland - in fact I know it isn't because it's happened to me in Park City - CSIA 4 trainer one day, PSIA 2 two days later. Same price.
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BGA, For sure qualifications dont always relate to ability and experience but if you are going to a foreign country what else can you go by unless you are fortunate to have a recommendation.. Warren is a good example of that, although "only" an ISIA level qualification his skiing is phenominal and from what everyone says here is a wonderful coach and inspiration teacher.
Interesting to hear that in Park city you paid the same for differing levels... I have not had a lesson in North America but my impression from posters here was that it was very much a case of you having a "menu" of instructors to choose from depending on experience and qualifications. Is this dependent on the resort you are in perhaps?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Interesting to hear that in Park city you paid the same for differing levels... I have not had a lesson in North America but my impression from posters here was that it was very much a case of you having a "menu" of instructors to choose from depending on experience and qualifications. Is this dependent on the resort you are in perhaps?
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Haven't had instruction in the States with a 'regular' ski school for about three years but prior to that I was never given the option to choose instructors on the basis of experience or qualifications. The Park City thing was ridiculous, we skiied with a CSIA 4 trainer who was a fantastic skier and instructor but wasn't available for the rest of the week. He arranged for one of his mates to ski with us a couple of days later but he had some family emergency so couldn't make it, so we ended up with this Kiwi guy who was unique in my experience of a) being the only Kiwi I've ever met with no sense of humour and b) being the only instructor who was fatter and more out of condition than me. Same cost for both, $600/day so far from cheap and a complete waste of a day. Since then I have only ever skiied with people on personal recommendation, and for the last couple of years just with the WSSA
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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BGA, not trying to score points here but your experience in NA seems to reinforce my view that the French/austrians/italians have it right in setting the bar high.
I had assumed incorrectly that you have a choice in picking instructors in NA, and although it sounds like you requested and got a trainer in Park city. ending up with a lousy replacement is ridiculous as you say..
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skimottaret, we'll agree to differ. I'm still not convinced that the national system employed makes that much difference. There are great ski instructors in all countries, some of whom are highly qualified, some of whom are less highly qualified. Equally there are cr*p instructors the world over, again some with high qualifications and some not. The ability to communicate, to put complex ideas over simply and to have a real understanding of what their client is hoping to achieve is for me what makes a good ski instructor, and having skiied with instructors from all over the world some can do it and some can't.
WRT to Park City, we didn't request the first guy, we just dropped lucky, swings and roundabouts I suppose - much like your Verbier experience.
Anyway back to the thread...
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You know it makes sense.
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skimottaret,
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Personally i like the american system where you pick the level of instruction you want and pay more for the higher qualifications. At least you know what you are getting and it is clear to the average skier that there are differing levels of qualifications.
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Where did you get that impression?
I've taken lessons in many resorts as I learn to ski in the States. Of all the resorts I've been to, there's never such an option to choose the level of instructor at added cost.
In fact, there's a heated debate on Epic that Vail is only contemplating such a move next season. From what I can gather reading through the debate, no other resort had such a system since none of the instructors participating mentioned they had any experience working with such a system.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Where did you get that impression?
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abc, On snowheads as per another post where the general jist was you could select the level of qualification and pay accordingly. Perhaps the posters were refering to Canada or perhaps i got it horribly wrong and didnt recall correctly  ....
BGA, we can agree to disagree no worries.... and I apologies for assuming you "selected" you level of instructor, as per ABC i appear mistaken in that belief.
But back on to the Thread ... It does strengthen my view that the consumer should at least be made aware of what level instructor they are paying for, most punters (including some advanced skiers) may not even know that different levels exist and wouldnt know to ask.
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Poster: A snowHead
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I am sure an actual instructor can correct this but at Whistler IIRC a CSIA 1 instructor is only allowed to teach up to level 3/4 on the punter scale. Thus if you are a level 5/6 skier on the punter scale you are likely to get a CSIA 2 or above. Similarly if you go for one of the more targetted coaching programmes which are really a form of "lessons for people who don't do lessons anymore" they have a threshold of instructor level. I imagine there is scope for this to go out of the window if they are suddenly deluged with level 5 punters and a dearth of beginners but I would have thought that's unlikely.
My numbers may be out but the principle I think is there. Its fairly obvious if you go up the mountain early enough and watch the instructors on their trainer led daily "session" that they are by no means all skiing gods and goddesses.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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At Whistler normally a CSIA1 wouldn't get further than Whistler Mini's (3-4 yearl olds), Whistler Kids at beginner level, or at a push, rarely, Adults up to basic parallel on green runs or very easy blue runs.
There is always the exception, if a CSIA1 and/or potential CSIA2 candidate demonstrates personal skiing to a high standard, AND demonstrates their capability to be a good instructor, teaching, good interpersonal skills, commitment to guest services etc. then they (the supervisors & managers) may be a little flexible in letting he/she teach a higher level temporarily while they train and sit for their next set of exams.
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imagine there is scope for this to go out of the window if they are suddenly deluged with level 5 punters and a dearth of beginners but I would have thought that's unlikely
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Extremely unlikely, at WhistlerBlackcomb. As a general rule, instructors teaching (punter) levels 4-6 are CSIA3 minimum or international equivalent.
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| watch the instructors on their trainer led daily "session" that they are by no means all skiing gods and goddesses |
Indeed. Remember though, the vast majority of these will be made up of lower level instructors training to improve.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I am sure an actual instructor can correct this but at Whistler IIRC a CSIA 1 instructor is only allowed to teach up to level 3/4 on the punter scale. Thus if you are a level 5/6 skier on the punter scale you are likely to get a CSIA 2 or above. Similarly if you go for one of the more targetted coaching programmes which are really a form of "lessons for people who don't do lessons anymore" they have a threshold of instructor level. I imagine there is scope for this to go out of the window if they are suddenly deluged with level 5 punters and a dearth of beginners but I would have thought that's unlikely.
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This is how it's meant to work at most ski schools. Certainly in Verbier the Verbier Sport Plus ('official school') grades it's instructors so that only certain people are allowed to teach levels 5+6, depending on their own ability. They then try to rotate around so that people don't get stuck teaching level 1s all the time as this is a bit soul destroying. Unfortunately for various reasons this doesn't always work - mainly instructors moaning, politics (local boys and girls want all the best lessons) and personalities clashing. All of the guys I know who work for VSP were always moaning about this.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Cedric,
Great shot.....anyone would be pleased with that.
can't see the 1st pic
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| veeeight wrote: |
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| watch the instructors on their trainer led daily "session" that they are by no means all skiing gods and goddesses |
Indeed. Remember though, the vast majority of these will be made up of lower level instructors training to improve. |
No criticism intended - I'd see it as a big positive that instructors get ongoing daily paid training rather than just hanging around waiting for classes. & thanks for correcting my CSIA level to punter levels. I knew they would be out.
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Oops my mistake thought some of it was clocked on time.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Thank god I am stuck on the plateau below. This advanced one sounds very complex
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Maybe there are some plateaux from which the only way off is down?
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pam w, yeah, we are all on that one...... 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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veeeight,
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CSIA3 minimum or international equivalent.
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what would be the equivalence to the BASI system? and is it much hassle to get "dual" qualified? i was surprised to hear that at whistler they have level 1 instructors on the books. i view that as a good thing and think it great that at your hill people can earn while they learn and move up the ladder and take training....
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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skimottaret, CSIA 3 is the ISIA level - I think that's BASI 2.
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Wear The Fox Hat, skimottaret, BASI 2 = ISIA
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