 Poster: A snowHead
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Getting back to the original post. There are probably two basic aspects: psychological and basic stance. Foxy pretty much got the single thought requested. Get you're hands (and hence balance point) forward. Further forward, not necessarily lean forward etc. Unless you're hands are forward of you're body, the rest is academic.
Single thought: get your hands forward
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Nickski wrote: |
Getting back to the original post. Get you're hands (and hence balance point) forward. Further forward, not necessarily lean forward etc. Unless you're hands are forward of you're body, the rest is academic.
Single thought: get your hands forward |
Are you sure ??
I could ski all day with my hands by my sides and be 'centered'( not sitting back) and all day with my hands forward and not be 'centered'(sitting back)
The basic principal is to be supported by your skeleton and not your muscles. Moving your hands forwards and backwards will not help one way or the other.
There are lots of posts on this thread with the correct answer, if you do not know which is the correct answer you are probably 'sitting back' and are not centered.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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stewart woodward,
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I could ski all day with my hands by my sides and be 'centered'( not sitting back) and all day with my hands forward and not be 'centered'(sitting back)
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So could I, but the tendancy for a less experienced skier, is if their hands move back, their balance point is also likely to move back. the same for looking down tends to move the hip line backwards.
So keeping the Hands forward is not a such a bad thought to work on.
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Hands forward is probably the worst advice going.
Having your hands back is a sympton, not a cause.
If you flex the ankles the hand come forward naturally. Simply moving you hands forward causes you to stick your bum out.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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*gets popcorn out, plumps up cushions* 
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Most people think they're forward when their shoulders are forward, of course that's not the case! Your hips (COM) needs to be forward, as already discussed. therefore to tell someone to "lean forward" is useless as they just take a bow (normally). this year I'm finding the phrase "stand up from the knee" quite helpful.
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That exactly reflects my experience. People told me for years to get my weight forward, so I pushed my hands and shoulders forward, and despite having pelvis tilted under (NOT bum sticking out) my weight was over my heels because I didn't flex enough at the ankles. A BASI instructor in Les Gets years ago earned his (considerable) fee for a private lesson telling me to stand on the balls of my feet but I still didn't stand up enough. A couple of lessons with easiski got me to see the difference. And in the last few days, playing around with some visitors on easy pistes I have for the first time been able to turn on the outside edge of one ski (ie turn right standing on the right ski, and vice versa). So it has suddenly clicked. After nearly 20 years..... and I can ski all day without burning thighs, too even though I am unfit and old (but not fat!) and certainly get other symptoms of fatigue. Now I have to make up for the last 20 years of doing it wrong before I get totally past it. I watched a pisteur skiing down a red piste with 20 poles on his shoulders yesterday; he was certainly "standing up from the knees". Now I can tell instantly when I get it wrong; my quads ache. Simple as that
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What a great bunch you are, loads of tips to remember.
Thanks a million.
IMT
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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easiski, now I think about it - my 'throw myself down the mountain' is very like 'stand up from the knee' 
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veeeight, for your entertainment !
stewart woodward, may be you could ski all day with your hands by your side and if you can do it down a mogul slope I really will be impressed but it's not the smartest way to ski. To generate an appreciation of the hands, if someone is stood still (whether on their skis or not) and you ask them to perform a squat, in order to stay in balance the hands naturally go forward. It's natural because that's the easiest way. You could do it with your hands by your side but you're just making it harder for yourself.
For the best skeletal support you need straight limbs so that comment doesn't make much sense ?? Surely you're looking for flex through the ankles, knees, hips (and small of the back).
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Nickski, You did realise thatstewart woodward, is an instructor didn't you? His point was that you don't need to get your hands forward to be centered (hate that word, cos it's not properly descriptive). I concur. 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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easiski, guessed as much. I accept you don't have to but it is easier if you do i.e. it makes sense to.
I know what you mean about centered. I'd use balanced instead of centered (phrase which originated in N.America ?) because that's basically what it's about, staying in balance so you don't have to use you're muscles excessively to get back in balance.
Instructor or not, I still don't think the comment about using your skeleton and not your muscles makes sense ??
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| Nickski wrote: |
Instructor or not, I still don't think the comment about using your skeleton and not your muscles makes sense ?? |
it makes perfect sense.
watch folks who ski "in the back seat" as they slowly come to a stop. they will stop and then.......stand up to re-center......aligning their skeletal structure. they will move their hips up and forward a couple of inches. it is the same move made out of a bar/saloon chair. that move i know well. when they begin to slide abain they settle right back down.
telling a student to move forward merely exascerbates the issue. telling a student to stand up works IF the student is on appropriate terrain.
it is "standing from the knee. telling a student to move forward is not the answer. watch a student from the side as they stand up and the patella will actually move back as they stand.
tell a student to drive their hands forward and that will drop their rear end more.
it only occurs when fear is an issue. get a student gliding on comfortable terrain and they are fine. put a student in a spot where they are confident that they can initiate AND complete a turn they are fine.
the back seat, the "i want to slightly lower my pelvis to make me feel safe", appears along with fear and being over terrained.
merely my $00.02
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You know it makes sense.
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I find it easier to keep weight forward by skiing with my shins without even thinking about ball of foot. I initiate turn with weight pushed forward on shins (or rather my weight is forward and sort of pulling my shins forward) and then shift pressure back to heel to accelerate out of turn. Is that a bit odd?
Dan Egan has a useful exercise (or at least I found it useful) in one of his books - you face down a gentle slope, stand up straight, put arms out sideways, and let gravity pull you down the slope by your chest. I probably haven't explained this very well so will copy his words later. But I found this exercise helped my get comfortable with keeping my weight forward and let gravity pull me down from the chest rather than from the feet.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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easiski, I tried your balance excercises on Monday evening, as I hadn't been to Cas' for a while. They work very well, you can also do the one legged and hopping ones on pommas.
The one legged on the uphill ski thing is also easy to change into a turn, and a great way to move towards one legged skiing.
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Poster: A snowHead
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marc gledhill, Glad to be of help.
Rusty Guy, Hear, hear. Unfortunately "over-terraining" is many holiday skiers' ambition.
Nickski, If we didn't have a skeleton we'd all sleep in buckets like Odo in DS9! It's there for a reason - the human body is really quite a clever design! I'm sorry, but you can put your arms forward all you like without affecting your body position, and it also tends to lead to the very "wooden" looking skiers we all see from time to time - poor dears are trying very hard to do it "right", but are so stiff, and thinking about it so hard that they'll never relax into it. Do the Exercises and it'll happen without all that angst!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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easiski,
I agree that you often see a very over-cultured position and its often centred around rigid arms.
Its a dynamic sport...!!!!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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marc gledhill, next try the traverse on the uphill ski, but when you go to turn hop onto the downhill ski, and then turn using it alone.
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I thought the whole "arms slightly sort of forward" thing (or at least pointing in the down the hill direction) was more to do with keeping the upper body facing downhill and also to help with pole-planting - it's a sort of being "ready for action" thing isn't it? I find that by keeping my arms facing downhill, in a relaxed flexible fashion, helps me separate my upper body from my lower body.
If you do a squat while stationery, with your arms down by your side touching your ankles, then lift your arms forward, your body position moves back to regain balance (well, it does for me anyway). To me, it seems that thrusting the arms right forward would help counteract a position that's perhaps too far back to start off with - it wouldn't necessarilly make your body move forward. But then when you're moving, surely it's a whole different ballgame - your position has to change to keep you balanced while accelerating and decelerating..
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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petemillis, But this whole thread is about peeps who are NOT balanced (ie: sitting back). Pushing your arms forward brings some people into balance, but in my experience not the majority.
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Nickski, I think it's actually more using the bigger muscles to their designed advantage. While a skeleton can't really hold you up (only muscles can do that), when the skeleton is aligned, the muscles have less work to do and the bigger muscles are doing the work. In a typical walking gait, you can see this (you don't stand with knees locked, but don't get as tired as you would walking around in a crouch all day).
Frankly, I think the most overlooked key is equipment. Getting into a neutral, balanced position when in neutral in the boots on the skis is actually quite difficult. And the various "improvements" that people try on their own often have the exact opposite effect from the one intended (for example, putting a wedge in the heel of the boot often moves the CoM back instead of forward as intended). Get balanced in your boots. See a boot specialist. Get your own boots before anything else. This is so important!
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ssh, i have a slightly different perspective.
frankly i think expert instruction trumps bootfitting. in addition how many neophytes are going to first seek a bootfitter and where will they find one outside of a ski area? give me a group of first time skiers in rental boots and i can assure you that i can get each and every one in a functional stance. they don't need to go spend hundreds of dollars at a bootfitter.
what they need is to feel comfortable/confident sliding down a slippery slope. once they gain confidence while gliding THEN explore turning.
being over terrained or being asked to stop/turn before being comfortable sliding down a slope is what in my mind creates stance issues.
terms such as neutral are "buzzwords". heck.....mention neutral to a vast majority of psia examiners and they have no idea what it means. you heard that term from me when i trained you because i was taught the concept from bob barnes and he learned the concept years ago from the mahres. to most folks it's............skiinstructorspeak! it is akin, in my mind, to an inexperienced instructor standing in front of a group and saying "you must be balanced". if i was in the group i'd say, "well i just paid x number of dollars for you to teach me balance".
i seriously doubt anyone would experiment on their own with altering zeppa angles with a wedge under a heel. it is typically an instructor who pulls one out of a uniform pocket in an ill informed effort to help. i will say this. stand before a 260 pound female who's calf is killing her and you'll say "to heck with zeppa angle, this lady needs to get that poor calf muscle raised out of that boot or she won't make it through a two hour learn to ski lesson."
equipment is important. i do think there are folks who go a bit overboard with there boots. i used to do a lot with canting, delta angles, zeppa angles, etc. the main reason was to compensate for an issue related to a knee surgery. i got myself into a gym and did some work with a qualified athletic trainer to mitigate a problem that symptomatically looked like pronation. the issue was not in the foot. it was in the lateral rotators of my leg.
i now ski boots right out of the box.
btw.....while at esa ask mssrs. geib and barnes my take on recreational skiers wearing 150 flex plug boots. it involves a dog needing an extra appendage.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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ssh, Raising the heel does not shift CoM backwards, it simply helps redisribute forefoot pressure along the sole of the foot. If the raise is too much, then excessive presure is distributed at the heel, therefore giving the skier the impression the CoM is too far back. The skier then tries to fight this, trying to stand more up right, thus appling too much pressure at the tail of the ski.
I love the 'Zeppa/Ramp angle descussion, but sometimes worry that you view this as something everyone need to address in the manner in which you are. Let the technicians decide, they look around lower legs around 10 times a day and should be able to spot the problem when it's in front of them. 
Last edited by You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net. on Thu 11-01-07 15:19; edited 1 time in total
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SMALLZOOKEEPER, I think what Steve is getting at is that if you put a heel lift under someone, they may compensate for that lift by leaning back.
Try it - get one of your lackies in the shop to stand up in his bare feet.
Look at how he stands.
Now put a book (or something similar) under his heels.
Does that make him lean forward, or does he compensate by leaning back, so he remains in the position he was in before?
For some people, they will lean forward when they have heel lifts. For others, it's the opposite.
...at least I think that's what SSH meant.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Wear The Fox Hat, They should never lean back, should they have this kind of physiology, they dont need a heel lift, that is my point.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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SMALLZOOKEEPER, true, but how many bootfitters/instructors/"expert punters" would advise just to put in a heel lift to cure the problem?
...sometimes forward lean is improved by putting in a toe lift.
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Wear The Fox Hat, You've been hanging aroung at Disneyland again haven't you! 
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You know it makes sense.
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ssh, I'm afraid I have to say that I don't agree. I think too many peeps rely on equipment. As Rusty Guy, says, you need to be taught properly in the first place and then a good stance is there from the start. Of course many (if not most) people will then rush to overterrain themselves as part of the "need" to ski a blue/red/black/double back sumerasult or whatever. then they need to correct their stance when they've inevitably sitting on the loo (sorry yanks - restroom!).
I really don't think many people need much more than balancing in their boots (SZK will be cross probably). They need to learn to ski properly! 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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easiski, amen
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Poster: A snowHead
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SMALLZOOKEEPER, no - have they Falcons? 
...again, try it with one of your gimps...
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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i posted earlier that a good tip is to keep "your thighs high" which to me sounds like a simple way of explaining what most are advocating on this thread, like stand up from your knee but more inuitive and keeps the pelvis forward.
ps. hands forward always seems to work well to help eradicate a lot of problems.....
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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skimottaret, Yes - "high thighs" sounds pretty good to me as a way of expressing it.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Wear The Fox Hat, First we have to asume the ortotic is correctly aligning 'STN', knee and hip, then 'ab-duction/ad-dution is being regulated in partnership with cuff alignment and canting. Then perhaps, providing dynamic balance is perfected and we have problems with either achilles or anterior tibialous, just then this might make a difference, but i would prefer to work with coller return or offset shells. This is so subjective and serves only to confuse the client, surley life is too short, unless we all want to meet up at Disneyland for next years boot clinic.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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SMALLZOOKEEPER, does disneyland have snow, cause from what I hear, Chamonix disney...
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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"Tony knows" seems to work for me - if my toes, knees and nose are aligned, my bum can't be sticking out and chances are my thighs are near enough upright. Quads have suffered far less since I heard that one.
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easiski, Thanks for the lesson in biology. I’ll try to take it in the spirit I assume it was intended.
Canadian Ski Instructors’ Alliance
Skiing and Teaching Methods
Chapter 2
Fundamental Skiing Skills
1. Stance and balance
Extract:
The hands should be positioned high enough to permit easy pole movement. Hand position can influence the entire stance because of its effect on balance.
End of extract.
Virtually every skiing photo/diagram shows the hands in some sort of variation on the large tea tray position. To imply that hand position is not important is, well, I'm obviously going to continue to disagree.
With regard to the skeleton; in order to get maximum support from the skeleton and thereby require minimal use of muscles, limbs should be as in straight a line as possible, basically stood upright. This isn’t a good fundamental stance for skiing. Standing upright from the knees makes more sense as an explanation of desired position, assuming it's not implying that the bodies trunk should be in line with the thighs, which is a horrible position.
Hurray, I win.
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Oh and topjack, very honest of you and yes, I'd say so.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Nickski, hands forward i think is important to help promote a good stance.
topjack,
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| If you flex the ankles the hand come forward naturally. |
are you sure about that...last time i checked the ankle bone isnt connecte to the wrist bone....
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| easiski wrote: |
| skimottaret, Yes - "high thighs" sounds pretty good to me as a way of expressing it. |
got the opportunity to ski this afternoon with our ssd who is a psia examiner and former national demo team member. he is very fond of talking about "vertical thighs" vs "horizontal thighs".
i really like high thighs
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FAQ
