 Poster: A snowHead
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| Kramer wrote: |
@zikomo, @Chaletbeauroc, I agree.
Carving is much easier than skidding in all conditions, but most so when you're in chopped up and heavy snow IMO. |
Nope. I disagree. The quads are loaded when skiing in the modern/carving dynamic position. Sliders stand on their skis as they would in a bar holding a pint.
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Thu 22-02-24 20:44; edited 1 time in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Mollerski wrote: |
| The quads are loaded when skiing in the modern/carving dynamic position. |
In what way?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@Ravensburger, I simply don't get the 'if you can carve properly, it's not tiring twaddle'. I can and it is tiring. Unless you're tootling along ankle tipping, it's heavy on the legs.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| Mollerski wrote: |
| The quads are loaded when skiing in the modern/carving dynamic position. |
In what way? |
Please show me a photo of any half decent skier, skiing at a moderate pace and tell me that their quads aren't loaded.
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Thu 22-02-24 20:48; edited 2 times in total
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Mollerski wrote: |
| rob@rar wrote: |
| Mollerski wrote: |
| The quads are loaded when skiing in the modern/carving dynamic position. |
In what way? |
Please show me a photo of any half decent skier, skiing at a moderate pace and tell me that their quads aren't loaded. |
All I’m asking is in what way are they loaded? And how this is different to a turn at a similar speed of skiing in which you blend in more rotation of the ski?
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| Mollerski wrote: |
| The quads are loaded when skiing in the modern/carving dynamic position. |
In what way? |
Please correct me if I’m wrong here, but the outside leg’s knee is not locked. Therefore there’s no skeletal support in that leg, it’s all muscular. The main muscle bearing the load is one’s quad. When going fast, that leg has to bear the load of your body and more (when going fast enough it’s not just one G we’re talking about).
In a “modern” flex transition style one does not get up in the transition but stays low. Therefore the quads have little rest period, they’re doing work for a relatively longer period during a turn cycle (only resting when the inside leg gets retracted).
In a park & ride / “easy carving” which could be identified from that both legs tend to stay relatively straight the whole time, the quads get to rest for relatively a bit longer during the cycle? Plus the “park & ride” usually doesn’t lead to as fast a skiing as the more aggressive one, building lower Gs and thus less load on the leg.
That’s the way I reason it but I’m happy to change my mind if someone comes up with a better explanation.
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Thu 22-02-24 20:52; edited 1 time in total
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| Mollerski wrote: |
| rob@rar wrote: |
| Mollerski wrote: |
| The quads are loaded when skiing in the modern/carving dynamic position. |
In what way? |
Please show me a photo of any half decent skier, skiing at a moderate pace and tell me that their quads aren't loaded. |
All I’m asking is in what way are they loaded? And how this is different to a turn at a similar speed of skiing in which you blend in more rotation of the ski? |
The upper and lower leg has to be in a straight line and the knees locked out for the quads to be unloaded. Who skis in this way? Sliders. Otherwise the quads are engaged.
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| Ravensburger wrote: |
| rob@rar wrote: |
| Mollerski wrote: |
| The quads are loaded when skiing in the modern/carving dynamic position. |
In what way? |
Please correct me if I’m wrong here, but the outside leg’s knee is not locked. Therefore there’s no skeletal support in that leg, it’s all muscular. The main muscle bearing the load is one’s quad. When going fast, that leg has to bear the load of your body and more (when going fast enough it’s not just one G we’re talking about). |
Yes, that’s right. How is that different to a skier coming down the hill at the same pace, with a similar turn shape, but rather than steering the turns solely by tipping on to the edges is blending in more rotation to their balance of steering elements? Are the quads not also loaded and working hard for this skier too?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@Ravensburger, Precisely.
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| Mollerski wrote: |
| @Ravensburger, I simply don't get the 'if you can carve properly, it's not tiring twaddle'. I can and it is tiring. Unless you're tootling along ankle tipping, it's heavy on the legs. |
I agree. If you’re carving low and building G’s it IS tiring.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Mollerski wrote: |
| The upper and lower leg has to be in a straight line and the knees locked out for the quads to be unloaded. Who skis in this way? Sliders. Otherwise the quads are engaged. |
Agreed, although I’m not quite sure what a slider is.
In what way is this different to someone who blends more rotation in to their turns?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I've often thought it and this thread is beginning to prove it. There are a lot of theoretical skiers on this site. 
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| Mollerski wrote: |
| There are a lot of theoretical skiers on this site. |
Is that a skier who understands how skiing works, compared to a skier who doesn’t understand how it works?
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You know it makes sense.
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| Mollerski wrote: |
| I've often thought it and this thread is beginning to prove it. There are a lot of theoretical skiers on this site. |
Luckily not as many nor as confrontational as on a well-known American skiing-related forum. Those guys (I just presume most of them are male) can really start an argument of the most mundane of things…
I mean discussion about technique is great! It’s the style that matters.
Last edited by You know it makes sense. on Thu 22-02-24 21:05; edited 1 time in total
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| rob@rar wrote: |
In what way is this different to someone who blends more rotation in to their turns? |
Unless the skis are 'flat boarding' down the hill (no control), the 'dynamic position' has to be assumed in order to introduce an edge and take control.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Ravensburger wrote: |
| Mollerski wrote: |
| I've often thought it and this thread is beginning to prove it. There are a lot of theoretical skiers on this site. |
Luckily not as many nor as confrontational as on a well-known American skiing-related forum. Those guys (I just presume most of them are male) can really start an argument of the most mundane of things…
I mean discussion about technique is great! It’s the style of discussion that matters. |
Sorry, double post…
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Thu 22-02-24 21:06; edited 1 time in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Mollerski wrote: |
| rob@rar wrote: |
In what way is this different to someone who blends more rotation in to their turns? |
Unless the skis are 'flat boarding' down the hill (no control), the 'dynamic position' has to be assumed in order to introduce an edge and take control. |
Sorry, I have no idea what this means.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| Mollerski wrote: |
| There are a lot of theoretical skiers on this site. |
Is that a skier who understands how skiing works, compared to a skier who doesn’t understand how it works? |
There are those whom chat a lot about skiing those whom ski a lot.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| I have no idea what this means. |
I'm starting to question what you do understand and more worrying what the hell you are teaching? It's not complicated.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Mollerski wrote: |
| rob@rar wrote: |
| Mollerski wrote: |
| There are a lot of theoretical skiers on this site. |
Is that a skier who understands how skiing works, compared to a skier who doesn’t understand how it works? |
There are those whom chat a lot about skiing those whom ski a lot. |
OK. What’s the number of weeks per winter that you think should qualify a person to contribute to a discussion on technique? One, two, five, eight, ten, all season long? Fifty weeks in total? Certified number of weeks being coached? If you can explain what the threshold is then maybe we’d know we’re not worthy to discuss things with you.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Mollerski wrote: |
| rob@rar wrote: |
| I have no idea what this means. |
I'm starting to question what you do understand and more worrying what the hell you are teaching? It's not complicated. |
I didn’t understand what it meant because it sounds like BS. But if you don’t want to explain that’s not a problem, and I can carry on packing to head out to the Alps this weekend and ignore this thread which is rapidly becoming pointless.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| Yes, that’s right. How is that different to a skier coming down the hill at the same pace, with a similar turn shape, but rather than steering the turns solely by tipping on to the edges is blending in more rotation to their balance of steering elements? Are the quads not also loaded and working hard for this skier too? |
You’re absolutely right: when isolating one turn, the forces required thus fatigue, lactic acids generated etc. are the same. So I have to say that you’re right.
However, if you have two persons, make one of them do 100 turns skidding and the other one do 100 turns “dynamically carving”, I just doubt that the first one could be able to continuously keep up the same speed as the other one because he/she bleeds speed in every turn, thus leading to lesser force used overall = less fatigue.
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@rob@rar, Please. I'm sure that you'll find someone out there to bore to tears. Have 'fun'. 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Ravensburger wrote: |
You’re absolutely right: when isolating one turn, the forces thus fatigue, lactic acids etc. are the same. So I have to say that you’re right.
However, if you have two persons, make one of them do 100 turns skidding and the other one do 100 turns “dynamically carving”, I just doubt that the first one could be able to continuously keep up the same speed as the other one because he/she bleeds speed in every turn, thus leading to lesser force used = less fatigue. |
OK, so in other words, skiing at higher performance, higher speeds generates higher forces so the leg muscles in particular have to work harder. I think we can all agree on that. It is not something special about “carving”, the blend of steering elements is not relevant, it is the forces that you generate as you create the turn, in whatever way you do that, which determine how hard your quads have to work.
If I’m on very gentle terrain, a cat track or an easy green, I can roll from edge to edge and without doubt I’m expending less energy than if blend much more rotation in to my turns. If I’m skiing heavy, mounded snow in the kind of temperatures we’re seeing right now, I find it much less tiring to use a long radius, GS, type turn, edge to edge, than use a lot of pressure on the ski to bend it and shape turns that way as I try to power through the slop. The main reason I find it less tiring is that the shape of the ski does much more of the work for me, compared to me trying to force the ski to bend to manage the turn shape. As I said earlier, all things being equal, it is a more energy efficient way to ski if you use the ski’s geometry to create the turn simply by tipping it, compared to physically twisting and pressing it to create the turn.
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| Layne wrote: |
| tsgsh wrote: |
| I'm not sure there's a right way to take that. |
...so apologies if my comment came across as harsh/insulting. |
Well it did come across that way but it's all good now. Thanks.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@rob@rar, all things being equal, I agree with you - by pivoting the ski you engage more muscles than carving thus consume more energy, so speed and all else (flexing / extending the transition etc.) being equal you do get more tired that way. Maybe it was just hard for me to imagine someone doing continuous “high performance skidding” so I couldn’t get my head around this.
I think that we’re not in a disagreement here in any way.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Ravensburger wrote: |
| I think that we’re not in a disagreement here in any way. |
Good. Hopefully I’ve not bored you too much, and if I have please accept my humble apologies.
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| Ravensburger wrote: |
| Maybe it was just hard for me to imagine someone doing continuous “high performance skidding” so I couldn’t get my head around this. |
Given that linking carved turns isn’t appropriate for most of the terrain we ski, the majority of our turns have an element of “high performance skidding”. In some phase of the turn at least, we blend in a degree of rotation to complement the edging and pressure that we also manage as we shape and link our turns. Skiing warm slop I find particularly tiring if the slope is steep enough that I can’t roll from edge to edge in a long radius turn. That’s because I have to physically push and twist the ski through the heavy snow. Carving my turns would be way less energy, even if it meant I’d be skiing faster.
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You know it makes sense.
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@rob@rar, I understand that, ‘skarved’ turns are the norm when just cruising, avoiding other skiers, skiing steeps etc. I do that too, even unintentionally when I think I’m actually carving. But that’s just due to my poor technique.
I just have to clarify that by “continuous high performance skidding” above I meant skidding that would be as fast as high performance carving a piste. As in “all things being equal”. But let’s not open that box again.
Agree about slush / heavy snow, tiring.
I want to thank you for your civil engagement in this discussion, all good! Let’s touch base again, have a great trip!
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@frejul, Look what you started here 
I think I'll give up this carving malarkey, before I start taking it too seriously, I just can't remember all this stuff.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Mollerski wrote: |
| Kramer wrote: |
@zikomo, @Chaletbeauroc, I agree.
Carving is much easier than skidding in all conditions, but most so when you're in chopped up and heavy snow IMO. |
Nope. I disagree. The quads are loaded when skiing in the modern/carving dynamic position. Sliders stand on their skis as they would in a bar holding a pint. |
Show me someone telling me that they can’t carve without telling me that they can’t carve…
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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It may have been some time since I’ve ski’d with rob@rar but I can vouch for the fact that he can ski, and carve.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Mollerski wrote: |
| ..I simply don't get the 'if you can carve properly, it's not tiring twaddle'. I can and it is tiring. Unless you're tootling along ankle tipping, it's heavy on the legs. |
With respect, you may be doing it incorrectly; it really is much less effort to turn properly - to carve. It's what the ski is designed to do, after all.
I ride a lot with groups of various abilities, and it's obvious that skilled folk (who carve) get much less tired than those using less efficient turns.
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Back to the OP. Well isn't that really the same thing as most people who "stop learning" to ski when they are still "intermediate?
I think you either feel that as you get better at a sport, you'll enjoy it more... or you don't.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| phil_w wrote: |
Back to the OP. Well isn't that really the same thing as most people who "stop learning" to ski when they are still "intermediate?
I think you either feel that as you get better at a sport, you'll enjoy it more... or you don't. |
Almost - but haven't stopped learning entirely - still interested in learning new skills - e.g. getting better at moguls, jump turns on steep terrain, skiing powder more effectively. Just not interested in railing carved turns!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Mollerski wrote: |
| rob@rar wrote: |
| Mollerski wrote: |
| rob@rar wrote: |
| Mollerski wrote: |
| The quads are loaded when skiing in the modern/carving dynamic position. |
In what way? |
Please show me a photo of any half decent skier, skiing at a moderate pace and tell me that their quads aren't loaded. |
All I’m asking is in what way are they loaded? And how this is different to a turn at a similar speed of skiing in which you blend in more rotation of the ski? |
The upper and lower leg has to be in a straight line and the knees locked out for the quads to be unloaded. Who skis in this way? Sliders. Otherwise the quads are engaged. |
I'll let my missus know (who can't carve currently) that she's skiing wrong, and in fact needs a straight leg from the boot/ankle joint right up to the hip.
I'll also stop teaching beginners that they need ankle and knee flex. I'd best get on to IASI to get them to update the manual.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| frejul wrote: |
| phil_w wrote: |
Back to the OP. Well isn't that really the same thing as most people who "stop learning" to ski when they are still "intermediate?
I think you either feel that as you get better at a sport, you'll enjoy it more... or you don't. |
Almost - but haven't stopped learning entirely - still interested in learning new skills - e.g. getting better at moguls, jump turns on steep terrain, skiing powder more effectively. Just not interested in railing carved turns! |
That’s a shame.
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| Kramer wrote: |
| frejul wrote: |
| phil_w wrote: |
Back to the OP. Well isn't that really the same thing as most people who "stop learning" to ski when they are still "intermediate?
I think you either feel that as you get better at a sport, you'll enjoy it more... or you don't. |
Almost - but haven't stopped learning entirely - still interested in learning new skills - e.g. getting better at moguls, jump turns on steep terrain, skiing powder more effectively. Just not interested in railing carved turns! |
That’s a shame. |
You can lead a horse to water....
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| phil_w wrote: |
| I ride a lot with groups of various abilities, and it's obvious that skilled folk (who carve) get much less tired than those using less efficient turns. |
An interesting comment Phil. At first, I was going to disagree with it, but then I started mulling it over and it's very hard to say one way or the other.
The reason I'd like to learn to carve properly is because I'm basically a lazy skier. I want to see as much of the area as possible, but not expend any energy doing it. But then I started thinking about the Mrs who's going backwards and forwards across a blue slope in a half plough, half parallel. I feel so guilty that it must be killing her muscles, and here's me zipping straight down the middle with little to no effort. But then I started thinking, what if I was to travel in her tracks, but with much better technique. Would I be as tired as her - is it simply the distance I'm skiing, and how much does the technique play a part?
That leads on to if/when I finally break through the carving barrier, is it just the same amount of energy spent, but I'm now travelling in such a relatively straight line and at such a high speed that I'm expending even less energy. Not because of the technique, but again because of the amount of time actually spent physically skiing.
Of course, when it comes to high performance skiing, I'm in complete agreement that it takes much more energy. You're forcing your body to take on loads that would normally be spread over a much longer period of time. Not to mention the potential for large turns at high G increasing the overall load. At my age, I don't think I'll ever be fit enough to take that on.
I still haven't made my mind up - guess I'll have to test the theory if I can persuade my Mrs to go down the slope before me 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| ratkinsonuk wrote: |
| is it just the same amount of energy spent, but I'm now travelling in such a relatively straight line and at such a high speed that I'm expending even less energy. Not because of the technique, but again because of the amount of time actually spent physically skiing. |
No. Carving is much more efficient for covering the same track.
When you are skidding turns you are using energy to move the ski sideways through and across the snow, which causes friction. It takes energy to resist the friction. When carving, the ski is always moving forwards, precisely along its long access, which causes much less friction. Added to which, when the ski is moving forwards, the ski curve of the ski tips cause it to rise above the snow, which takes much less force to maintain than when it is moving sideways. As an added benefit it is quicker, and you are also in more control.
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| Kramer wrote: |
| ratkinsonuk wrote: |
| is it just the same amount of energy spent, but I'm now travelling in such a relatively straight line and at such a high speed that I'm expending even less energy. Not because of the technique, but again because of the amount of time actually spent physically skiing. |
No. Carving is much more efficient for covering the same track.
When you are skidding turns you are using energy to move the ski sideways through and across the snow, which causes friction. It takes energy to resist the friction. When carving, the ski is always moving forwards, precisely along its long access, which causes much less friction. Added to which, when the ski is moving forwards, the ski curve of the ski tips cause it to rise above the snow, which takes much less force to maintain than when it is moving sideways. As an added benefit it is quicker, and you are also in more control. |
Basic physics innit! Energy in and energy out: the less noise, strain, and out-of-vector movement the better the efficiency (less work).
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FAQ
