 Poster: A snowHead
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Nobody has suggested you should "ski faster". Well, nobody on this Forum. And no instructor has EVER suggested to me I should ski faster, though one elderly ESF instructor did suggest that unless I could control my speed down a red run behind him, as he did a series of beautifully controlled short turns, I should perhaps go down to a lower group! He thought I was using kind of hectic approach to circumvent my lack of skill and technique, and he was right.
If your body is in worse shape than mine, skiing's probably not a good idea.....
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Isn't skiing faster by doing carved-turns instead of skid-turns the entire point of hip close to the snow skiing?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Room 12A?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Most people who take ski lessons and benefit from them will never get their hip anywhere near to the snow.  Perhaps you need to focus on on your learning goals so you can explain them to your instructor rather than baffling them with bullshit?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Referring back to my original-post: " On the 5th day, I took a lesson. I felt the instructor was dismissive verging on insult, not even trying to understand what I was doing with proprioception and centripetal-force. “We don't ski that way any more”, “We don't un-weight”, “Don't use your poles”, “Back-pain is part of skiing”. "
I tried to explain, she refused to listen. Proprioception and centripetal-force is science, not cowdoo. I know there are some who think all science is cowdoo, and following the lead of authority works well for them. Delivering canned instruction is easier for an instructor, than trying to figure out what somebody is trying to do and help them do it better. I have said, more than once in this thread, that I am certain that there are instructors who could help me, but it is not worth the time and money to try and find them.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| GinaMae wrote: |
| .... trying to figure out what somebody is trying to do and help them do it better. |
If an instructor's client is trying to do the wrong thing, do you think the instructor will do a good job if they help their client do the wrong thing a little bit 'better' than they were doing previously?
When I'm teaching it's not uncommon for a client to have some misconceptions about how skiing works. I don't see it as my job to deepen those misconceptions, but to explain why a different approach will help them to ski more effectively, at whatever level of performance they are most happy to ski at.
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| GinaMae wrote: |
But what is good technique for someone 25 is not necessarily good technique for someone 65. What is bad technique for someone 25 is not necessarily bad technique for someone 65. |
Wrong. Like so much of what you say, you're starting from a false premise, presumably based on the idea that you don't think you want to use the same techniques as a 25-y-o and extrapolating to everyone else. As a <checks> 63 year old who qualified as in instructor in the last ten years (started out aged 52) I can assure you that I'm trying to ski in exactly the same way as I teach 25 year olds to try and ski.
| GinaMae wrote: |
| Delivering canned instruction is easier for an instructor, than trying to figure out what somebody is trying to do and help them do it better. |
Wrong again. Finding out what you're trying to do, why it isn't working as well as it might and giving you the tools to improve are exactly what any instructor wants to do. The fact that you're rejecting everything she says simply serves to show us once again that despite your claims of open-mindedness you're actually anything but.
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I think Rob and Chalet are not trying to understand what I am saying. They are just starting from the premise that I must be wrong, and looking for things that seem to prove that. The idea that I am arguing against is the the one that argues that the only way for an old skier to learn new technique is to start again from scratch, unlearn everything you know, and start back snowplowing on the bunny hill without poles.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@GinaMae, to be honest, it isn't that I'm not trying to understand you, it's just that I'm failing to understand your posts. There's an awful lot of words and I've struggled to extract much that is meaningful from them. As I see it, you've had a bad lesson (unfortunate, but not uncommon) and you've been using a double pole-tip drag drill. That's a pretty standard drill, usually used to (a) promote a bit more angulation, or (b) inhibit excessive upwards projection at transition. However, you seem to be using it on conjunction with upper body rotation, which is just bad skiing. If I'm missing something I'd love to know, because this is a most peculiar thread in a section of the forum that I'm generally quite interested in.
Last edited by You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net. on Sun 7-01-24 21:33; edited 1 time in total
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| Quote: |
They are just starting from the premise that I must be wrong
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No, they're not. What they are doing is trying to understand what you're saying, which isn't easy, TBH. And when you say things like the right way to ski for a 25 year old is not the right way for a 65 year old, they are bound to wonder where you're coming from. There are some 65 year olds who are amazing skiers and can do stuff which the average 25 year old couldn't dream of. It's not about age, as I said before.
You say you want to ski more safely, which makes eminent sense. But you've not explained what it is about your present approach which you feel is unsafe. I (like many skiers) have a bad knee. I know immediately I am skiing badly, because my knee really hurts and my thighs ache. It means I'm sitting too far back, being tentative, not being up and over the skis. For me, skiing more safely means not doing those things
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| GinaMae wrote: |
| The idea that I am arguing against is the the one that argues that the only way for an old skier to learn new technique is to start again from scratch, unlearn everything you know, and start back snowplowing on the bunny hill without poles. |
I'm beginning to think that you're reading a different thread to the rest of us, because I don't think a single person has even hinted at that idea.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@GinaMae, where has anyone suggested you go back to snowplough?
Here's a couple of questions for you.
How do you purpose to intuitively learn the skills within ski techniques that are well understood to be counter-intuitive?
Proprioception is a feedback from the body to the brain of what you are doing; what it feels like. But if you don't have a blueprint of what good skiing feels like, how do you know when you're doing it?
Last edited by And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports. on Sun 7-01-24 21:42; edited 1 time in total
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| adithorp wrote: |
| @GinaMae, where has anyone suggested you go back to snowplough? |
I don't think that has been suggested, but it's no bad thing. I sometimes use a snowplough as part of a progression with experienced skiers. It can help with the fundamental ski skills, and really shouldn't be sneered at. Not everyone can do a good snowplough on a consistent basis, so if you develop the ability to perform an accurate snowplough it can clean up a number of weaknesses in your performance skiing.
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You know it makes sense.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| adithorp wrote: |
| @GinaMae, where has anyone suggested you go back to snowplough? |
I don't think that has been suggested, but it's no bad thing. I sometimes use a snowplough as part of a progression with experienced skiers. It can help with the fundamental ski skills, and really shouldn't be sneered at. Not everyone can do a good snowplough on a consistent basis, so if you develop the ability to perform an accurate snowplough it can clean up a number of weaknesses in your performance skiing. |
But you don't think that everything else should be abandoned; just that it would be a way to accelerate the adaption?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| adithorp wrote: |
| @GinaMae, where has anyone suggested you go back to snowplough? |
And even if they did it's actually where most new instructors actually learn to ski. Once you can demonstrate professionally things like lifting the tail of the uphill ski while making a traverse that varies between edging and side slipping on demand or doing Stork Turns on such a slope you are likely to be well on your way to being a competent skier.
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Poster: A snowHead
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I also have a view (which I know not everyone shares) that it's often quite helpful to get people to ski without poles. One valuable lesson I had years ago with a very good instructor called Dave Peak was to spend the morning on snow blades (no poles, obviously). If you sit back on blades you fall over backwards. And until you get them on edge, they wobble horribly.
And - different point - if you can't snowplough right, that's a problem. I discovered when I started cross country skiing that my snowplough was crap. I know of one experienced skier (a snowhead back in the day, but long disappeared) who was very put out to fail the first stage of training to be a ski instructor because he couldn't snowplough. I once watched a pisteur bringing a casualty on a sledge down a very steep slope in a perfect, controlled, snowplough. It was awe-inspiring. There's nothing wrong with going back to basics.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| adithorp wrote: |
| But you don't think that everything else should be abandoned; just that it would be a way to accelerate the adaption? |
A well executed snowplough is not somehow separate from 'real' skiing. It's not something you teach kids and beginners, then abandon or unlearn when you start to do proper skiing. A well executed snowplough requires the fundamental movement patterns and ability to use the same steering elements that underpin all the skiing we do.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| GinaMae wrote: |
| beester1976 wrote: |
| I think you are over analysing stuff, probably it's in your nature. You just need more time on ski's again (with an instructor). |
In college, you learn stuff. In grad-school, you learn to think for yourself. In college, you learn from listening to the teacher. In grad-school, you learn from challenging dogma. |
A bit patronising, but clear. However this is a sport not an intellectual endeavor. Unless you have a lot of pratical top sport experience, it will be hard to translate intellectual thoughts into physical improvements. Top atletes can, and I've witnessed top (FIS world cup level) skieers discussing their skiing with their trainer in such an intellectual detailed level, but that's after thousands and thousands of hours of training. (yes the proprioception you are talking about).
So with all due respect, what you are doing is "intellectual masturbating", it's loads of fun, but you won't become a better skier, that needs to happen on ski's!
Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Sun 7-01-24 21:57; edited 1 time in total
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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No, Rob, occasionally I use centripetal force differently to make a fast turn. Everybody agrees that centrifugal force wants to keep you going straight and make you fall instead of turn. Everybody agrees that centripetal-force must be used to counter-balance centrifugal-force to make the turn. Modern instruction says that centripetal-force occurs when the ski-bends, and the skier tilts or topples. I said, and I know, that centripetal-force is also conservation of rotational-momentum, and that when the radius of a turn decreases, the speed of the spin increases squared. Rather than risk a topple turning into a fall, I use my arms and poles in a way that uses conservation of rotational momentum to make that one turn. But I am only doing this on the rare-occasion that I am going into a turn carrying more speed than I am comfortable with, and I have only used this turn three times in 120+ runs, but one of them was with the instructor watching, and she just stamped it wrong, rather than trying to understand it. I don't need to unlearn the bad habit of dragging a pole, because it's not a habit, it is a situational-adjustment.
Near the top of the hill, when I was turning without much speed yet, I raised my inside-ski off the snow. She called it a telemark-turn, but it was exactly what many expert-videos call shortening the leg. She claimed I need to keep my skis exactly the same distance apart all the time, like they are connected by a steel bar. That was just stupid. My legs move together and apart intuitively to maintain balance in the micromoment. I listened to what the instructor said, and tried the things she said to try. She had zero knowledge about proprioception, and didn't care to hear about it. There is no one right way to ski, but many instructors, and some of these posters believe there is.
On principle, you are correct. If someone is skiing badly, it is not helpful for an instructor to try and help them ski less badly. I can ski fast with sweeping, c-shaped turns, and control my speed by doing an occasional skid-turn instead of a carved-one. I can go straight down the fall-line doing tight turns. It feels effortless, and I skied 7 consecutive days with little fatigue and zero back-pain. So I must be doing alot of things right. Therefore, the idea that I need to forget everything I know, and start again from scratch is ridiculous.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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[desperately trying to reduce three wordy paragraphs to one sentence...]
| GinaMae wrote: |
| ... I use my arms and poles in a way that uses conservation of rotational momentum to make that one turn. |
So when things get a bit sketchy you swing your shoulders to check your speed. As I said, that's bad skiing.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Chaletbeauroc wrote: |
| If you want to ski better then you really need to be open-minded and accept that everything you know and do needs to be re-learned from scratch. |
Others on this thread said the same thing, but I am not going to go back and quote them all. The instructor said it straight out. "You need to relearn everything exactly the same way as a fifth-grader learning to ski for the first time."
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| GinaMae wrote: |
| She had zero knowledge about proprioception, and didn't care to hear about it. |
Perhaps it's the way she was being told. If it's anything like your posts then I can see how it would be a tiring day at work for the poor woman.
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@GinaMae, why are you bothering with this? You seem to feel your skiing is absolutely fine, and really rather clever. So what's the problem? Lots of people go skiing and don't bother with instruction.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| adithorp wrote: |
@GinaMae, where has anyone suggested you go back to snowplough?
Here's a couple of questions for you.
How do you purpose to intuitively learn the skills within ski techniques that are well understood to be counter-intuitive?
Proprioception is a feedback from the body to the brain of what you are doing; what it feels like. But if you don't have a blueprint of what good skiing feels like, how do you know when you're doing it? |
Intuitive-skiing knows what works. When it feels good, works well, and particularly it sounds right, I intuitively do more of the same. When my tips get tangled, and I almost fall, I intuitively don't do that again. I watch better skiers, and I follow them down, and can match their tracks.
You evidently skimmed over the post about how walking is counter-intuitive, but everybody learns to walk without instruction. You evidently skimmed over the posts where I talked about the difference between simple-proprioception and advanced proprioceptive-awareness. You evidently completely skipped the post where I answered your initial post on this thread directly.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
[desperately trying to reduce three wordy paragraphs to one sentence...]
| GinaMae wrote: |
| ... I use my arms and poles in a way that uses conservation of rotational momentum to make that one turn. |
So when things get a bit sketchy you swing your shoulders to check your speed. As I said, that's bad skiing. |
There you go again, looking for one little thing you can attack, and ignoring everything else. That is very left-brain thinking. You pick out a tree, and ignore the forest. I am a right-brain thinker.
I do not swing my shoulders, nor did I say that I swing my shoulders. I use my shoulders to place the tips in spots that define an arc between them, and then I bring my elbows back to my torso, and the poles with them, to use conservation of rotational momentum to make the turn, rather than the more risky tilt/topple to force the skis to bend and create centripetal force.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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So, what's wrong with your skiing, @GinaMae?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| GinaMae wrote: |
| Intuitive-skiing knows what works. |
There is a lot of skiing which is counter-intuitive. It's why we have the intermediate plateau, it's why it's very rare for someone who has had no technical input in to their movement patterns and their understanding of how skiing works to develop good foundation skills which will see them ski well.
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| GinaMae wrote: |
I do not swing my shoulders, nor did I say that I swing my shoulders. I use my shoulders to place the tips in spots that define an arc between them, and then I bring my elbows back to my torso, and the poles with them, to use conservation of rotational momentum to make the turn, rather than the more risky tilt/topple to force the skis to bend and create centripetal force. |
Sure, you swing your shoulders. I understood that, eventually, the first time you gave us your little essay. It's no wonder you got your money back for your lesson. I'd have done the same, and politely suggested you find a different ski school.
Hope you have a good winter and your return to skiing gives you great pleasure.
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You know it makes sense.
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| beester1976 wrote: |
| GinaMae wrote: |
| beester1976 wrote: |
| I think you are over analysing stuff, probably it's in your nature. You just need more time on ski's again (with an instructor). |
In college, you learn stuff. In grad-school, you learn to think for yourself. In college, you learn from listening to the teacher. In grad-school, you learn from challenging dogma. |
A bit patronising, but clear. However this is a sport not an intellectual endeavor. Unless you have a lot of pratical top sport experience, it will be hard to translate intellectual thoughts into physical improvements. Top atletes can, and I've witnessed top (FIS world cup level) skieers discussing their skiing with their trainer in such an intellectual detailed level, but that's after thousands and thousands of hours of training. (yes the proprioception you are talking about).
So with all due respect, what you are doing is "intellectual masturbating", it's loads of fun, but you won't become a better skier, that needs to happen on ski's! |
Whenever someone starts with "all due respect" what follows is always disrespectful. I have been skiing 23 days since the slopes opened December 1, and getting better every day. As Yogi Berra said, "90% of it is half-mental." Thinking and performing are two sides of the same coin.
With all due respect, are you sitting there with your dick in your hand, because putting me down makes you feel so powerful?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| pam w wrote: |
| @GinaMae, why are you bothering with this? You seem to feel your skiing is absolutely fine, and really rather clever. So what's the problem? Lots of people go skiing and don't bother with instruction. |
My skiing is evolving with every run. Part of the way I learn is writing about it, and another part is testing my ideas against other people's opinions. Nobody is making you participate.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| GinaMae wrote: |
| Intuitive-skiing knows what works. |
There is a lot of skiing which is counter-intuitive. It's why we have the intermediate plateau, it's why it's very rare for someone who has had no technical input in to their movement patterns and their understanding of how skiing works to develop good foundation skills which will see them ski well. |
What specifically is so counter-intuitive that you believe it cannot be learned intuitively?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| GinaMae wrote: |
| Part of the way I learn is writing about it, and another part is testing my ideas against other people's opinions. |
You're not testing your ideas against opinions, you're routinely deciding that you know best and what you're doing is correct. Such as the shoulder movement thing, which you're rationalising through your writing, despite being told that it's poor technique.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@GinaMae, this is an interesting thread. I'm not an instructor, I can't give you advice, I hope you enjoy your skiing.
I'm reminded of a joke:
This chap goes to confessional. He tells the priest: "I'm 60 years old, I've been faithful to my wife since we got together 35 years ago, but last night I was in a bar, started talking to two young ladies, one thing led to another, they came back with me and I spent the most wonderful night of my life"
The priest says: "This is very bad, but God forgives everything. Repent, say ten Hail Marys, give some money to the poor, come back to confession weekly"
Guy says: "Oh no, I'm not a Catholic"
Confused, the priest asks: "so why are you telling me all this?"
Guy says: "Are you kidding? I'm telling anyone who'll listen!"
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| pam w wrote: |
| So, what's wrong with your skiing, @GinaMae? |
Currently, I am working mostly on driving the inside-leg earlier in the turn, and figuring out how much weight to put on it and when, to get a smoother transition into the next turn. Sometimes too much skid makes me slow down more than I wanted to. I am sometimes getting a little too far back at higher speeds. I am probably still using more up/down movement to weight and unweight my skis than I need. I am stronger on left-turns then right-turns.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@horizon,
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| SnoodyMcFlude wrote: |
| GinaMae wrote: |
| Part of the way I learn is writing about it, and another part is testing my ideas against other people's opinions. |
You're not testing your ideas against opinions, you're routinely deciding that you know best and what you're doing is correct. Such as the shoulder movement thing, which you're rationalising through your writing, despite being told that it's poor technique. |
When you actually see me do it, then you will be qualified to tell me it's poor technique. When you try it, and it doesn't work, you will be qualified to tell me it's poor technique. You are just imagining what you think you would see, and making a mountain out of a mole-hill, as it's something I do on 1% of my turns.
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@GinaMae, show us some video then
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| GinaMae wrote: |
| When you actually see me do it, then you will be qualified to tell me it's poor technique. |
Sure, post some video, it will be a better basis for discussion. But as you have point blank refused to do that it makes me wonder what your motivation for posting here, because it sure isn't having an open mind and taking the opportunity to discus ski technique with skiers who have vastly more experience than you have, as skiers and for some of us as ski instructors. Perhaps you just like the sound of your own voice?
Anyway, have fun this winter.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| GinaMae wrote: |
| beester1976 wrote: |
| GinaMae wrote: |
| beester1976 wrote: |
| I think you are over analysing stuff, probably it's in your nature. You just need more time on ski's again (with an instructor). |
In college, you learn stuff. In grad-school, you learn to think for yourself. In college, you learn from listening to the teacher. In grad-school, you learn from challenging dogma. |
A bit patronising, but clear. However this is a sport not an intellectual endeavor. Unless you have a lot of pratical top sport experience, it will be hard to translate intellectual thoughts into physical improvements. Top atletes can, and I've witnessed top (FIS world cup level) skieers discussing their skiing with their trainer in such an intellectual detailed level, but that's after thousands and thousands of hours of training. (yes the proprioception you are talking about).
So with all due respect, what you are doing is "intellectual masturbating", it's loads of fun, but you won't become a better skier, that needs to happen on ski's! |
Whenever someone starts with "all due respect" what follows is always disrespectful. I have been skiing 23 days since the slopes opened December 1, and getting better every day. As Yogi Berra said, "90% of it is half-mental." Thinking and performing are two sides of the same coin.
With all due respect, are you sitting there with your dick in your hand, because putting me down makes you feel so powerful? |
What I mean with mental masturbation is that you just enjoy listening to yourself, but you are not listening. You actually don't want to improve, you just like the attention and people reacting to you. There is a personality type for that.
Have fun skiing, you are not going to find what you need here (or actually you do as long as people keep reacting to you).
By the way I'm lucky enough to live close enough to some magnificent mountains to do a decent amount of skiing, and I'm sure there are many here as well. Any way have fun Gina Mae
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| horizon wrote: |
@GinaMae, this is an interesting thread. I'm not an instructor, I can't give you advice, I hope you enjoy your skiing.
I'm reminded of a joke:
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Thanks. As a writer, that is what I was going for, an interesting discussion. One time I was on Rush Limbaugh, and it got written up all over the world. Conservatives were saying he got the best of me, liberals were saying I schooled him. But the only comment that mattered to me was the guy who said, "I was listening to this in the car, and it was truly compelling radio.
Yes, I am enjoying my return to skiing more than I can express. So much so, that on days I am not actually skiing, I want to write about, read about it, and study webpages and videos.
I also am reminded of a joke. Do you know the one about the hermaphrodite baby, where the punchline is "You mean the baby has both a pint and a brain?"
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FAQ
