 Poster: A snowHead
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This topic came up with our instructor on the PiPAU bash last week. He mentioned that one advantage of dialling 112 (rather than contacting the local piste patrol) was that the 112 operators could send a text message to your phone with a link which when clicked, accessed the phone's GPS and sent the location back to the operator. This eliminated the need to know how to get GPS coordinates and relay them whilst under pressure.
I can't say for sure that this is correct but I think I've heard it from several instructors now.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Weathercam wrote: |
@hang11, just out of interest what about radios, presume long range are available out there as opposed to here?
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I sometimes carry a 2w UHF handheld but AFAIK there’s no monitored emergency channel here, so it’s just for comms with whoever I’m with, and usually I don’t bother because it’s just more crap to mess around with.
So would a PLB or inreach be a better option than a phone in Europe because it obviously sends the location and doesn’t involve as many button pushes ?
I know in Japan using a PLB anywhere on land breaks the law, and there isn’t a monitored emergency service, but inreach is OK. PLB in Nz is the encouraged option.
I’ve got a PLB and inreach and tend to carry both for bigger missions, and leave the phone behind - phones being easy to break, hard to use in bad conditions and hard to use if you’re old with bad eyes like me.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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I am not an instructor but have skied off piste for many years and have done loads of practices. As far as the leader role is concerned you always have to anticipate that the official leader may indeed get buried. If that happens someone else has to take an immediate initiative and put themselves forward to manage the rescue. Hopefully it should not develop into an ego thing, however the rest of the group need to accept that person is now in charge and work with him or her.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| hang11 wrote: |
| ...I sometimes carry a 2w UHF handheld but AFAIK there’s no monitored emergency channel here |
The Baofeng stuff can be nominally 8w, but I think that's probably over-egging it.
| hang11 wrote: |
...So would a PLB or inreach be a better option than a phone in Europe because it obviously sends the location and doesn’t involve as many button pushes ?
I know in Japan using a PLB anywhere on land breaks the law, and there isn’t a monitored emergency service, but inreach is OK. PLB in Nz is the encouraged option.
I’ve got a PLB and inreach and tend to carry both for bigger missions, and leave the phone behind - phones being easy to break, hard to use in bad conditions and hard to use if you’re old with bad eyes like me. |
Yeah I think it depends which problem you're trying to solve.
If you're riding at resorts, which is what most people do, then a mobile phone would be better I think. You can explain what your problem is, and what resources you need, and it's instant... you're talking with the helo guys pretty much immediately. If you use InReach or something... you have a much more robust solution, but there's going to be more delay and you still haven't told them what the problem is, exactly. Does anyone know what the response time is for those global emergency services? In the Alps you can expect a pretty rapid rescue - 30 minutes for example - so responsiveness from your "call out" is useful.
A radio is only going to be useful for emergency call out if you know where the repeater is and have the frequencies you need.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| phil_w wrote: |
| Does anyone know what the response time is for those global emergency services? |
15 minutes in Nz - for button push to contact with emergency services - that’s assuming the inreach can get satellites easy. 15 minutes for a PLB and possibly quicker to find you with that because the signal can be tracked to the source, but no 2 way comms.
I was told that by a couple of mates who have worked mountain search and rescue
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@hang11, how much do you pay for your InReach subs over there?
I have one as well, which is a bit OTT for here given the almost adequate comms, but then there are many areas where there is no mobile signal, and I use it to let the OH know, especially as I'm often touring on my own, where I am starting from, where I am transitioning and finally when I'm back down.
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$20 a month (about 10gbp). That includes 10 messages and 5 forecasts I think.
There’s not much mobile coverage anywhere in the hills or even smaller ski areas here. It’s a handy little thing, that I have with me often.
My main use is for up to date weather forecasts. My wife isn’t interested in where I am 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| joffy69 wrote: |
| Something I've been told. You're skiing in a group (you ARE, I hope). Agree an accident/avalanche lead (this would be the guide/instructor, but what if they're caught?) IN ADVANCE. The last thing you want is everybody shouting at each other, telling them what to do. Just one person to say "Beacons to receive. 2 people to search that area/person. 2 people on that person. Everybody else: probes and shovels out and ready", for example. |
This is something that you don't really think about until it happens, especially if you don't have people in the group who are particularly extrovert/confident/loud.
I have done a few off-piste courses which have all involved several avalanche search/rescue drills throughout the week. On the last one they really sprung a search on us as a surprise. We were told that our instructor had to meet someone on the slopes so we met up with the other group and their instructor for a pre-afternoon session chat about avalanche safety. When we eventually met up with our instructor on the slopes she immediately started shouting at us 'avalanche, 3 victims!' but otherwise was not going to help us. It took at least 3-4 minutes for us to decide on a leader. It took a few minutes longer for everyone's transceivers to be set to search (including the instructors who were still standing around but not helping). I got sent off with someone else pretty quickly and we found one 'victim' quite quickly which turned out to have another victim close by. But there was another 'victim' which was quite a long way away from the other victims and it took a long time before the person we eventually chose as a leader started sending other people down to look for the 3rd victim. We completed the rescue in 16 minutes but a lot of the time we wasted during the search was lost just in not having clear and decisive communication through one person and having people stood round at the top without being given tasks.
A search/rescue is never going to be perfect because getting caught in an avalanche is not a good situation in the first place. The best thing that you can really do with your group if you are skiing off-piste is to regular practise doing rescue drills no matter how silly it seems (because then you really appreciate how hard work it can be to move around in deep snow, how to do the search pattern with the transceiver, how tricky it can be to get stuff out of your backpack without taking your gloves off and not lose everything, how to use the probe correctly and know what you are actually looking for, how hard work it is to shovel out snow and why you should share the digging if you are getting tired). No point in having the equipment if not everyone in the group knows how to use it.
One thing to think about, it might not always be beneficial to have a 'designated' leader in advance in every circumstance. Imagine if it was their partner/close relative/friend who was buried, there is a chance that the leader could just 'freeze' in shock and not act at all. Or what happens if the designated leader is already at the bottom of the slope where they are not as useful or is the one who gets buried. I think the more important thing is that once someone has decided that they are going to act as leader then the others in the group need to listen to and follow that person's instructions precisely. And that leader should ideally not be doing any of the tasks themselves so they can focus on the bigger picture (although sometimes they might still need to help with the search depending on how many people are in the search group).
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Interesting thread, especially with regard to the other somewhat acrimonious deaths thread.
My personal view is that amongst skiers risk assessment is often the most lacking element. Before people harangue me, let me explain my thoughts. I come from a background of rock climbing, (including what is now termed Free Soloing), Ice Climbing, Alpine mountaineering etc. In this environment risk assessment is critical, if you get it wrong you will die. (And I have had friends where that has happened).
Most skiers learned to ski in a controlled environment, and while skiing on piste it is easy to injure yourself, rescue is easy, and it's actually really hard to kill yourself. Moving from that controlled environment to off piste with the same sort of thought processes as needed for mountaineering is really hard, especially when there are loads of tracks of people who have survived! All I can really suggest is carry safely kit, learn and practice, and make efforts to learn mountaincraft - always be aware of wind direction, which way it was blowing when the snow fell, which slopes are loaded etc etc. There is so much to learn, and I am very aware that after 40 plus years in snowy mountains I still don't know enough - but being aware of that makes me safer.
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