 Poster: A snowHead
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| under a new name wrote: |
... ...  but friends who are guides? defo should be ABS'd up. risk = exposure x probability |
Almost impossible to discuss on the internet I think. Which is an interesting thing in itself.
Work Safe BC is the "health and safety" organization in BC. They're pretty much why all guides there must use helmets. They don't take that position on airbags. However whilst double checking my facts I came across an interesting article about avalanche risk at work in BC. Specifically whilst driving to work. Trying to get on chair lifts and into cars with those armed bags must be interesting.
Airbags are still more popular with Europeans (in BC) than with those from North America, in my anecdotal experience, although they often don't use the crotch straps. But like the old Avalung, some of those things are easier to wear than to use. I do have an airbag. It's rare to see a heli guide carry one, and I wouldn't if that was my job.
| davidof wrote: |
| I posted a link above somewhere where I quoted a study on risk but I gave some of statistics of what is known... |
The paper https://arc.lib.montana.edu/snow-science/objects/ISSW13_paper_O5-04.pdf posits a model which is where those numbers are taken from; they are not actual risk levels. If you look in the footnotes you can see some handwaving at the source of the data behind the model parameters. They point out that the variability of the risk is more important to their analysis than the actual values. Those interested in actual risk levels would be better going to original sources for that.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@stevomcd,
I like this logic.
It's my logic.
That's probably why I like it.
Helmets
I had a nasty 'off' whilst commuting...not my fault at all...6,000gbp of dental surgery.
Dental surgeon said 'don't do that again or I won't be able to fix things...'
If I had been wearing a helmet with a chin guard (eg Bell Super) then I would have been unscathed.
I still commute every day.
Do I wear a helmet with a chin guard. Yes.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Quote: |
I still commute every day.
Do I wear a helmet with a chin guard. Yes.
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While commuting?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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A lot of these posts are about levels of personal risk, which is interesting.
The courses I've done focus on beacon use as "First on the scene" and use the beacon as tool to aid a rescue, rather than a tool for someone to save you from your own bad decisions (should you survive).
Imagine you were to witness a 'side country' slide while riding up the lift, when you are 'just skiing pistes' for the day. If you are trained, have the gear and can help then carrying it could one day help you save a life. If your gear is in the room then you are powerless.
After that I always carried the kit, as much if not more from a karma/community perspective as self insurance.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Diggery wrote: |
A lot of these posts are about levels of personal risk, which is interesting.
The courses I've done focus on beacon use as "First on the scene" and use the beacon as tool to aid a rescue, rather than a tool for someone to save you from your own bad decisions (should you survive).
Imagine you were to witness a 'side country' slide while riding up the lift, when you are 'just skiing pistes' for the day. If you are trained, have the gear and can help then carrying it could one day help you save a life. If your gear is in the room then you are powerless.
After that I always carried the kit, as much if not more from a karma/community perspective as self insurance. |
Really well said - spot on re good ski karma.
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@under a new name, @Chaletbeauroc,
To me, you guys have it backwards. The decision to partake in risky behaviour comes first. I want to ride powder. I am going to ride powder. I want to ride steeps. Riding steep powder is inherently risky. Therefore I should take any reasonable steps to make that risky behaviour safer. The primary step is doing my very best not to ride slopes that I think will slide on the day in question. However, as a human being I am fallible. I therefore also use safety equipment which has been proven to be at least somewhat effective in order to improve my chances on the day when something that I don't think will slide, does, in fact, slide. The decision that riding steep powder would be part of my life was made a long, long time ago. My eyes are pretty wide open (and educated) on the levels of risk and the effectiveness (or not) of safety equipment. The effect of safety equipment on my day-to-day decision making is zero (Ok, close to zero - again, I'm a fallible human). If transceivers had never been invented, I would still be riding powder. Probably with cords hanging off my waist with cute little arrows on them. Ideally with a giant, rider-enveloping protective ball in a 1kg backpack. But transceivers do exist, so I wear one.
Would I be safer if I never rode off piste? Sure. If I never wore a transceiver, would I be safer because I would therefore never ride off piste? I guess, if that's the path of logic you want to follow? That's pretty obtuse though, and useless in any practical sense.
It's getting into chicken and egg territory for me and I'll leave further argument to philosophers.
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| under a new name wrote: |
| @richjp, I truly think it should not! |
It would for me. If I don’t have the gear I’ll stay on piste or perhaps ski very mellow terrain that is too shallow to slide, is not overhung and isn’t exposed to terrain traps. With all the gear and a decent avy report then I may ski above 30 degrees obviously taking account or terrain/elevation/weather etc.
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If I'm dropping into anything over 33 degrees I wear two transceivers. Can't be too safe.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Diggery wrote: |
Imagine you were to witness a 'side country' slide while riding up the lift, when you are 'just skiing pistes' for the day. If you are trained, have the gear and can help then carrying it could one day help you save a life. If your gear is in the room then you are powerless.
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In the thousands of days I've been skiing I've never seen a side country slide so it is not really something I worry about but the piste patrol would be there and they don't generally want enthusiastic amateurs getting in the way; help with a probe line if they don't get a signal, yes but not running around with an avalanche beacon.
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| hang11 wrote: |
| If I'm dropping into anything over 33 degrees I wear two transceivers. Can't be too safe. |
Hopefully one of them doesn't get ripped off. It would be a bit of a Pi**er if your mates dug that one out while you're buried elsewhere.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| davidof wrote: |
| In the thousands of days I've been skiing I've never seen a side country slide so it is not really something I worry about but the piste patrol would be there and they don't generally want enthusiastic amateurs getting in the way; help with a probe line if they don't get a signal, yes but not running around with an avalanche beacon. |
A couple of years ago, I was in a local resort where there were two slides that day. The first occurred directly under the bubble, not far from the piste. The main problem was not people running round with beacons, but rather sitting in the lift with them still turned on and confusing the signals. The outcome was to improve the comms in the bubble to tell users to turn their beacons off if it happened again (I don't know what exactly, if anything, was implemented though). I was watching from across the valley, so did not join the probe line, but I don't think anyone was buried in that one, or not completely.
The second one occurred close to where I was skiing when the first happened, though I had gone off to lunch by then. A teen was buried whilst trying to retrieve a lost ski. He was not wearing a beacon, and could not be found in time.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| davidof wrote: |
In the thousands of days I've been skiing I've never seen a side country slide so it is not really something I worry about but the piste patrol would be there and they don't generally want enthusiastic amateurs getting in the way; help with a probe line if they don't get a signal, yes but not running around with an avalanche beacon. |
I've seen three, at least.
Each time the 'amateurs' were there in seconds, the first professionals taking a few minutes to get there and not in any numbers for at least fifteen or twenty minutes.
So that crucial first fifteen minutes did not have the benefit of any professional searchers.
In each case the 'amateurs' were kept on the scene and actively searching - their efforts were absolutely wanted and hugely appreciated by the professionals.u=
I did actually trigger a slide (on the Gross Sultzli, Engleberg, for anyone that knows it) and get carried a few metres down a slope one time, albeit remaining upright and only 'buried' to below the knee level. I'd have been very glad my mate was just there above me to immediately start searching if it had been worse. This was accessible from, but out of sight of any lifts. Would have taken the best part of half an hour for help to arrive. Maybe that's not your definition of 'side' country,
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| davidof wrote: |
| Diggery wrote: |
Imagine you were to witness a 'side country' slide while riding up the lift, when you are 'just skiing pistes' for the day. If you are trained, have the gear and can help then carrying it could one day help you save a life. If your gear is in the room then you are powerless.
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In the thousands of days I've been skiing I've never seen a side country slide so it is not really something I worry about but the piste patrol would be there and they don't generally want enthusiastic amateurs getting in the way; help with a probe line if they don't get a signal, yes but not running around with an avalanche beacon. |
Hmm different definition of side country to me. As I say, I mean it as off piste accessed from the lifts. I've seen plenty of slides on that.
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You know it makes sense.
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I've also seen at least three skier triggered slides within resort areas, one substantial one right next to Les Lanches chair in Tignes, where the buddies had transceivers out before the dust settled. Luckily no one buried in any of them.
I also have a mate who joined a probe line after an avalanche swept a piste. Unfortunately is wasn't a good outcome.
I always have the patrol number top of my contact list. I would defer to any Pro taking charge of the search, but absolutely would jump in during the first valuable minutes (after calling it in). If I can search for someone in my party, I can search for someone who's name I don't know.
| Quote: |
| In each case the 'amateurs' were kept on the scene and actively searching - their efforts were absolutely wanted and hugely appreciated by the professionals. |
That's good to hear.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Chaletbeauroc wrote: |
In each case the 'amateurs' were kept on the scene and actively searching - their efforts were absolutely wanted and hugely appreciated by the professionals.u=
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The problem with amateurs is they tend to run around with their beacons on transmit or they revert to transmit which is a PITA. Having dozens of people tramping around also doesn't help if rescue dogs are needed as it makes it harder to get a scent.
They are useful for a probe line.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| jedster wrote: |
Hmm different definition of side country to me. As I say, I mean it as off piste accessed from the lifts. I've seen plenty of slides on that. |
you mean slides where people were buried and you had went to help with a rescue?
I've never seen one.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| davidof wrote: |
| jedster wrote: |
Hmm different definition of side country to me. As I say, I mean it as off piste accessed from the lifts. I've seen plenty of slides on that. |
you mean slides where people were buried and you had went to help with a rescue?
I've never seen one. |
Yes, you said.
Plenty of us have though, it would seem.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Chaletbeauroc wrote: |
| davidof wrote: |
| jedster wrote: |
Hmm different definition of side country to me. As I say, I mean it as off piste accessed from the lifts. I've seen plenty of slides on that. |
you mean slides where people were buried and you had went to help with a rescue?
I've never seen one. |
Yes, you said.
Plenty of us have though, it would seem. |
You must be the Jeremy Vine of skiing.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@davidof, I'm a bit confused here with what we are saying we have seen or not seen...
"you mean slides where people were buried and you had went to help with a rescue?"
Once in La Norma and between skiing down and getting a lift back up there had been a slide on to a piste. Fortunately it seems no one was caught. Does that count?
Last year in Les Arcs there was a slide across a piste which we didn't see but saw that there was a search and rescue operation in place. Don't know the result. Does that count?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| davidof wrote: |
| jedster wrote: |
Hmm different definition of side country to me. As I say, I mean it as off piste accessed from the lifts. I've seen plenty of slides on that. |
you mean slides where people were buried and you had went to help with a rescue?
I've never seen one. |
No I've ever helped with a rescue but that is an after thought from you!
I've seen slides on terrain that I sometimes ski which I access via lifts and a short skin and drops me down into a valley away from the lifts. That is what I meant by slides on side country terrain.
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summary - lots of folk have seen slides onto a piste, not many (any?) have seen a slide on piste where people were buried (is my reading of this thread)
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@kitenski, I've seen lots of slides off piste. as in I've seen the aftermath - it's quite rare for anyone to be standing staring at a face at the exact moment it goes I would imagine.
I've never actually seen a slide where people were in it.
But, tying it back to the question of why people choose to wear a beacon sometimes (piste, side country) and not others (gnarly off piste, back country) I don't see any logic myself - even if I'd never see a slide onto piste, side country.
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If I'm not skiing only piste and on piste skis I wear a beacon. If you own a beacon you should to. Ski patrol or mountain rescue ALWAYS search beacon first when dealing with an avalanche.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| kitenski wrote: |
| summary - lots of folk have seen slides onto a piste, not many (any?) have seen a slide on piste where people were buried (is my reading of this thread) |
Pretty much the case isn't it otherwise there would be a real case for products like that "repositioned" dreadful Snowbe thing. I suspect that many of the slides that cross pistes are the catracky kind where a chute or face release travels laterally across a relative short length of piste during the latter stages of movement. So with appropriate awareness should be possible for most to avoid it. Most such slides I've seen in practice seem to be wet slides in spring. Muthafekers to subsequently climb over though.
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| RedandWhiteFlachau wrote: |
| abc wrote: |
| If I don’t have a partner, what’s the point of taking the gear? That said, beacons and shovels are only useful after you triggered an avalanche. So many people say they only go out when they feel the beacon is almost unnecessary, but taking the beacon and shovel nonetheless. In that case, one may wonder does it matter whether they’re taking a beacon or not? |
One day, somebody else might save your life if you have one on, or at least recover your body, plus they're quite useful when some dumbass (I think that's the appropriate US term) falls in a Tree Well. |
Most tree well deaths happen within 30 minutes of burial. If you're flying solo and don't have a partner who can either dig you out or call for help, the beacon probably isn't doing anything except help with body recovery.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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This thread loads too much emphasis on the beacon/transceiver/pieps /arva use which ever name you prefer.
The beacon is there to find people still alive (hopefully) or recover a body at a later stage.
The essence of off-piste is avoidance of avalanche. The priority is the planning process before sticking a foot beyond the piste marker post.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| kitenski wrote: |
| summary - lots of folk have seen slides onto a piste, not many (any?) have seen a slide on piste where people were buried (is my reading of this thread) |
I'd suspect most of things people have seen will be debris, not the actual slide. Because the resort would be closed when the bombs were thrown to cause that slide.
I don't think it's specifically this thread' some people find it hard to discuss safety reasonably on the internet. It's a classic "purity spiral" I think.
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| phil_w wrote: |
| kitenski wrote: |
| summary - lots of folk have seen slides onto a piste, not many (any?) have seen a slide on piste where people were buried (is my reading of this thread) |
I'd suspect most of things people have seen will be debris, not the actual slide. Because the resort would be closed when the bombs were thrown to cause that slide.
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I don't speak for other witnesses, but I thought the general drift was that we were only talking about actual avalanches happening in real time, not simply the aftermath thereof.
Certainly that's what I meant, although I was earlier also talking about side-country ones. I have seen non-deliberate slides onto pistes at least twice though (both in Engelberg) both of which would have been capable of knocking someone over and at least one of which could have completely buried someone (neither of them did ).
I'm not arguing either way about beacon usage, simply the fact that avalanches can and do happen even in 'safe' areas.
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You know it makes sense.
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As has been said before, treat it like a seatbelt in a car or your helmet. If I'm skiing, on piste, off piste, it matters not, I am wearing a beacon, I am also wearing a backpack containing my shovel and probe.
Apart from not knowing exactly what the day might bring, it just doesn't make sense to have the kit and not carry it.. Ok, weight is an issue with the shovel and probe but I would be wearing a pack regardless with layers and butties etc., so why not. Wearing the beacon impacts nothing at all so it's a bit of a no brainer... It is invisible when being worn, so it's not like getting dressed up in full world cup racing lycra trying to look 'cool'  (I appreciate, doing that would have exactly the opposite effect! 
The downside of course is that in resort, on piste, I guess 95% of the other skiers won't be equipped on a daily basis and so the efficacy of me wearing one may not be particularly meaningful... Will still always do it though
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I've had a wet slab avalanche happen directly in front of me across the path I planned to take. And, by the way, seriously destroying any alternate route. Inbounds, in "controlled" terrain. They closed the area as soon as my companion notified the lifty. It took me about an hour of exhausting work to get out of the mess. (The companion reported me as MIA because it was taking me so long. I'd told him to meet me further down but I'd underestimated the problem of getting around a field of boulder-sized chunks of snow.) Never saw rescuers show up, was too busy dealing with my own rescue. Supposedly, they were looking for me.
And yet, I still don't wear a beacon. Probably should.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| jedster wrote: |
| hang11 wrote: |
No such thing as side country where I am. It’s either inbounds controlled or out of bounds and not controlled.
I wear a transceiver inbounds quite often too. May as well. |
Really? I though sidecountry just means out of bounds ACCESSED BY SKI LIFTS (as opposed to skinning/hiking from the road). |
You can be in an entirely different valley with no lifts, no marked runs and no ski patrol from a lift so that is frankly a rubbish definition.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| phil_w wrote: |
And you ought to be fully kitted up at Ski Rossendale. It does snow there, and people do die in slides in the UK. |
The people who die from slides in the UK are not skiers. I can't think of a single incident in the last 30 years where a skier died in an avalanche in the UK. On the other hand, we must be pushing 20 deaths from walkers/climbers in the same time frame who don't think they need avalanche gear because it's skiers that get caught not walkers/climbers.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Imv the presence of a lift nearby makes no change to the risk if terrain is not controlled - so side country is just a confusing term that people incorrectly use to assume less risk.
Might be different elsewhere in the world but that’s my understanding of it where I ride, and it works for me and my decision making in terms of equipment and risk management are unaffected by the presence of infrastructure.
I saw someone get caught in a huge wet slide a couple weeks ago. Luckily not buried, skiing solo and nobody near enough to dig them out in time. The guy skinned up a ridiculously exposed route just as the sun was getting on it and then dropped in next to a slide that had released 10 minutes previously as the sun hit it! Had a chat with him when he was heading up and queried his route choice. English tourist having a day out on borrowed gear.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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FAQ
