 Poster: A snowHead
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| Whitegoldsbrother wrote: |
Methinks someone's had a wee dram too many... |
You reckon Scottish mountain food is better than Italian?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| T Bar wrote: |
On it's day scottish skiing is pretty amazing. I grew up skiing in Scotland circa 1970-1987 ...
I don't think on a good day Glenshee would compare unfavourably with the 3V with its travel from valley to valley.
Except that we're probably talking 1/3 of the vertical? feet vs metres?
Or Aviemore with St Moritz with its classic hotels and views over the lochs.
You haven't stayed in St Moritz have you? (I spent my first 8-10 years with an annual sojourn to the Aviemore Post House) - a very seriously different price point!! (And no Cresta run. Although Dundee University ski team heading down the A9 pished in the go karts after a big night in the Freedom Inn is probably at least as amusing
Glencoe is a bit more of an Argentiere. Seriously?
And Aonach Mor with its views over to the iconic Nevis is a reasonable comparison to Zermatt. One thing I'm not confident of though is that the on mountain eating experience in Scotland would survive comparison with Italy. Nor reliability of snow and sunshine!! |
Or is my irony filter too sensitive?
Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Thu 23-02-23 19:12; edited 1 time in total
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| dode wrote: |
| Cervinia + Zermatt = more than 250km |
Nope 217 if you measure it. Which shows the stupidness of using km as an arbiter of greatness.
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| under a new name wrote: |
Glencoe is a bit more of an Argentiere. Seriously?
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You think as it's not lost it's top lift it may have an advantage?
PS Yes my tongue was firmly in cheek my original point about Scotland was questioning whether or not the OP had meant to type Scotland or Austria rather than Italy Scotland was a joke.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@T Bar, sorry, it was (obviously only after I'd typed that I'd realised the tongue_in_cheek value had been enhanced) although in all fairness on a good day Scotland can be marvellous skiing (and on any snowy day great touring apparently).
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@under a new name,
Yup I've had some great days including on skins though those days do seem to be becoming less frequent. 
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@pam w, that should put most people off then. You’ll have no trouble getting restaurant tables.
I hope it turns out a lot better than you seem to be implying.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I kind of understand what OP is hinting at ... Italy has very high number of slow/old lifts that make "smaller" areas ski even smaller.
Val d'Isere/Tignes has at most 15% of lift capacity or terrain that is covered by what would be described as old/slow lifts.
La Thuile has around 30% that are old/slow. Unless it is a bluebird day after decent snowfall I try to avoid Arnouvaz chair, which serves some of the best intermediate terrain in La Thuile.
Courmayeur is even worse (Arp, Youla, Peindent, Maison Vielle ... old and slow) but nobody goes to Courmayeur to ski km's of cruisers ... Pila, Valtournenche ... just too many 3 seat chairs.
Val Gardena/Dolomites fare better in this regard.
Italy has many more "pluses" that work in its favor and is still by far my favourite place to ski but definitely in Italy I get less vertical and km's of skiing on average. Great mountain restaurants and more chilled vibe do net help with this either 
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| T Bar wrote: |
| You reckon Scottish mountain food is better than Italian? |
Let me know when you find somewhere in Italy where you can follow deep-fried, battered haggis with a deep-fried, battered mars bar.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@jmr59, deep fried battered mars bars are a Yorkshire thing. Possibly adopted by us Scots, but not invented there.
Deep fried, deep pan pizza however... or indeed kebab-pizza are a different matter.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| hobbiteater wrote: |
my list is
3v -
pds -
paradiski -
via lattea -
based of cartography openskimap.org data not marketing.
edit - 4 miss summed megeve |
So France has 4 ski areas with 250+km (3V, PdS, Paradiski & Via Lattea) one of which depends on Italy for most of its km.
Italy has 3: Sella Ronda, Via Lattea & Cervinia/Zermatt. Two are partly shared with neighbouring countries.
Austria has 3: Arlberg, Saalbach/Hinterglemm/Fieberbrunn & Ski Welt, all contained within its borders.
Switzerland has 4: PdS, 4V, Zermatt/Cervinia, Arosa/Lenzerheide, one is mostly in France and the other is shared with Italy.
All 4 countries (and many others besides) have many smaller worthwhile ski areas too.
So can the OP please inform his imaginary friend that Italy's skiing is up there with the other Alpine nations and is far from pants, orange or otherwise?? 
NB I was using Bergfex listings for ski area size for Austria, Switzerland and Italy, as I haven't been around them with a pedometer 
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@under a new name, the deep fried mars bar was definitely invented in Stonehaven, Aberdeenshire not Yorkshire.
@luigi, even Arosa-Lenzerheide website only touts the area as 225kms. 4Vs was measured at 212kms IIRC from a thread here a few years ago. Zermatt/Cervinia already busted on this thread a few posts ago leaving just PdS for Switzerland. Isn’t most of that in France?
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You know it makes sense.
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2019 Schrahe report is, as far as I know, the most accurate recent assessment of piste extent. Here are the areas in the Alps over 250km according to that report. I believe the figures include marked ski routes (e.g. those in the Arlberg / Zermatt):
1. 3 Valleys (France) - 543km
2. Paradiski (France) - 402km
3. Sella Ronda linked circuit (Italy) - 353km
4. Arlberg (Austria) - 288km
5. Portes du Soleil linked circuit (France / Switzerland) - 282km
6. Saalbach (Austria) - 270km
8. Via Lattea (Italy / France) - 269km
9. Skiwelt (Austria) - 265km
10. Zermatt-Cervinia (Switzerland / Italy) - 261km
The list above only includes areas linked by lift, otherwise it becomes hard to define what constitutes a single ski area. So for example, the Sella Ronda figure includes the Buffaure area as it is linked at Alba, but doesn't include Alpe di Siusi as there is a town in between. Similarly, the Portes du Soleil figure excludes Morzine / Les Gets as it isn't directly connected. You could argue that these areas should be included, but then where do you draw the line? What about all the Megeve / Les Contamines area which are on the same lift pass? Or the separate Zillertal domains? Or even the Salzburger Super Ski? Etc...
For info, Arosa-Lenzerheide is measured at 174km. Some of the other highlights:
- Espace Killy (France) just misses out with 241km (thus "pants?" )
- in France, little known Espace Diamant (195km) is bigger than Alpe d'Huez, Grand Massif & Les 2 Alpes
- Grandvalira (Andorra) is the biggest Pyrenean area with 162km, followed by Baqueira (Spain) with 157km
- Park City / Canyons is the biggest N. American area, with 265km, followed by Whistler with 259km
- Tres Valles (Chile) is the biggest S. American area with 182km
- worst exaggerators include Les Sybelles (163km vs. 310km claimed), Via Lattea (269km vs. 400km claimed), Portes du Soleil (282km + 120km for Morzine, so clearly well short of the 650km claimed, even when adding in Roc d'Enfer etc.), Monterosa Ski (only 80km)
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@denfinella,....... and yet the three resorts I've had the best time in over the last three seasons are:
1. Les Mosses, Switzerland: 40km (claimed)
2. Lavarone, Italy: 30km (ha ha)
3. La Feclaz, France: 10km (1 chair plus 2 drags at weekends)
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Poster: A snowHead
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@BoardieK, this is what makes me smile when people search for “miles” 
It is a process I went through myself too - went to all biggest areas first as one week per year skier. I was made to believe bigger is better. When I became “two weeks a year” skier, one week was usually in a big area and one in somewhere less known and smaller. Soon realising that the level of enjoyment was higher is smaller, less crowded and cheaper resorts
Had the same type of experience in Japan. Fortunately MikePow was very generous with his advice. While I liked a lot Niseko, Kiroro, Rusutsu, some smaller local hills were a revelation.
My guess is that mile seekers are one week a year skiers who want to limit risk and just look for a safer option. Which is fair. I too disregarded all hints and sought the best/biggest/safest snow sure locations. Now I just seek fun and enjoyment.
It is not a bad transition or journey to have.
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Sun 26-02-23 11:01; edited 2 times in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I'm pretty sure that, as I dwindle into decrepitude, I shall be doing most, if not all, of my skiing in Alleghe (Italian Dolomites) - 72 kilometres and 23 lifts, allegedly. It ticks all boxes for me.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@BoardieK, absolutely. Size certainly isn't everything!
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I can enjoy large and small resorts, smallest I have had a full week at was Bonneval, which was great.
I must say though more recently I have enjoyed the piste tourism of the Dolomites and seeing different aspects each day.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@PeakyB, You like Italian culture etc.
But in the Dolomites, Austrian culture is still dominant....You're a bit insensitive here.
Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Sun 26-02-23 12:06; edited 2 times in total
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@denfinella, Ski Arlberg is 305 km pistes, excluding 200 km skiroutes!
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| Langerzug wrote: |
You like Italian culture etc.
But in the Dolomites, Austrian culture is still dominant.... |
The mixed culture is just fine. And I speak as a life-long francophile, by the way. If someone were to say that I could only take holidays (all holidays, not just ski holidays) in a single country, I would choose France, for all sorts of reasons.
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| Hurtle wrote: |
| Langerzug wrote: |
You like Italian culture etc.
But in the Dolomites, Austrian culture is still dominant.... |
The mixed culture is just fine. And I speak as a life-long francophile, by the way. If someone were to say that I could only take holidays (all holidays, not just ski holidays) in a single country, I would choose France, for all sorts of reasons. |
For many Süd-Tirolean, being Italian is not just fine, not at all. They consider themselves Austrian. The name Tirol comes from the castle and village of Tirol, nowadays called Tirolo, because it became Italian in 1918. But the Italians named the province Alto-Adige.
Süd-Tirol kids, when they go to university, don't go to Milan or Rome. They go to Innsbruck or Vienna.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@Langerzug, yep, all true, but when you're skiing in 'border country' you tend to move in and out of the two cultures. I certainly don't assume I'll get by in my pidgin Italian, rather than German or Ladin, in all rifugios, even if in some places Italian is the dominant language.
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@Langerzug,
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@PeakyB, You like Italian culture etc.
But in the Dolomites, Austrian culture is still dominant....You're a bit insensitive here.
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Yes, I agree.
'Insensitive' should've been my middle name. As it is, I'll have to put up with the one my parents gave me, Squealer.
It's a good point though and I find it fascinating when going around the different parts of the Dolomites how much the 'feel' of each place is subtly (or more obviously) different. For example, Arabba, compared with Selva, then Pozza and lastly Kronplatz (Brunico), all with different intangible characteristics, even setting aside the predominant language differences. I imagine back in distant history there was relatively limited day to day interaction between people living in those different towns/villages?
However, based on my very limited experience of the many cultures that now sit under the jurisdiction of Austria and Italy, if I had to nail my mast to one flag, it would be the latter.
Unless offered a germknodel, which tends to sway me.
I'll get my coat.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Hurtle wrote: |
| I'm pretty sure that, as I dwindle into decrepitude, I shall be doing most, if not all, of my skiing in Alleghe (Italian Dolomites) - 72 kilometres and 23 lifts, allegedly. It ticks all boxes for me. |
Alleghe just snook to the top of my must do list
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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[/b]@denfinella[/b],
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1. 3 Valleys (France) - 543km
2. Paradiski (France) - 402km
3. Sella Ronda linked circuit (Italy) - 353km
4. Arlberg (Austria) - 288km
5. Portes du Soleil linked circuit (France / Switzerland) - 282km
6. Saalbach (Austria) - 270km
8. Via Lattea (Italy / France) - 269km
9. Skiwelt (Austria) - 265km
10. Zermatt-Cervinia (Switzerland / Italy) - 261km
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Interesting list.
'Pants' isn't just characterised by size, of course, although that's a key determinant.
Altitude, quality of lift system, range & diversity of skiing experience, sheer wow factor and the colour of the sky during daytime hours all count, for example.
Espace Killy most definitely isn't pants. It's more haute couture, with a soupcon of grunge and hint of a wide brimmed hat with an arrow through it. Linking it with a very long cable car, so it connects with Italy, for a reasonably priced lunch, is one of the few improvements I could think of.
Whereas I found Park City to be relatively pantsish and don't believe for a moment that figure of 265kms (with Canyons) of piste for there. Even if it was that, I wouldn't rush to return. Boring, probably the opposite of Italy.
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@Frosty the Snowman,
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Alleghe just snook to the top of my must do list
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It has many great attributes, especially in late January.
Good opportunities for days out, without too much faff, to fantastic places like Cortina, Marmolada, San Pellegrino or the local cake shop.
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You know it makes sense.
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| Langerzug wrote: |
| @denfinella, Ski Arlberg is 305 km pistes, excluding 200 km skiroutes! |
Claimed by the resort, or the real figures? Looking at topo maps I would be inclined to believe Christophe Schrahe's report, rather than your figures.
@PeakyB, I was just being cheeky re. Espace Killy 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@PeakyB,
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Good opportunities for days out, without too much faff, to fantastic places like Cortina, Marmolada, San Pellegrino
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Indeed, even using buses it's scarcely a faff, with a car it's a real doddle. Include, of course, Cinque (Quatro e mezze) Torri and the whole Sella Ronda as being accessible.
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Poster: A snowHead
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While Schrahe's figures have the enormous benefit of using a consistent measuring system even if it is somewhat controversial, when going back to the OP's question you have to ask whether that changes the criterion.
It was about resorts suitable for "decent intermediate skiers" whose idea of a good holiday is to cover a lot of mileage. It was suggested that translates as a 250 km resort - but I would argue that means the size someone would select from a travel brochure. Given Schrahe comes up with numbers that are 20-40% lower than other listings you probably need to adjust the bar to 200 km or even lower.
There is no logic in excluding ski areas that span national borders. So for Italy, both Cervinia and La Thuile need to be candidates as well as all of Via Lattea. After all even Portes du Soleil would probably drop below the 250 km threshold (Schrahe measurement) if you excluded not only Pleney-Les Gets (not lift-connected to the rest) but everything the other side of the Swiss border.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Another factor is ski reliability. Our mileage hungry intermediate may want to be sure that most of those 155miles are going to be open to explore, when they get there. Climate, geography and management then become important and may shape desire for repeat visits.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Brilliant thread, thanks all.
Can I sum up....@PeakyB, Mostly Harmless?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@gixxerniknik,
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Can I sum up....@PeakyB, Mostly Harmless?
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Currently mostly legless too
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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@luigi,
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I'm in Pila. Visibility not good enough to fully appreciate the surroundings but nice skiing, friendly and cheap restaurants. 2 coffees and two fancy creamy biscuits 4 euros
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| pam w wrote: |
| I'm in Pila. Visibility not good enough to fully appreciate the surroundings ... |
Pity, it's a lovely little resort in the sunshine.
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@pam w, hmm, no sympathy from me (grey skies from the office window). Enjoy it! And ask for a caffee corretto con sambuca!
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FAQ
