 Poster: A snowHead
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| stanton wrote: |
You therefore cannot mandate something that has death (albeit fairly rare) as a potential side effect AND the producers have no liability. In what world is that right? |
I agree with this. If there was liability for side effects, then more people would probably have the vaccine.
The UK Government payout amount for when the vaccine goes wrong is laughable.
If vaccine is mandatory by law in a nation, then that government should also be culpable for the serious side effects some people endure.
| Quote: |
Nobody should be coerced or mandated to have a medical intervention. EVER!
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I dunno. I am all in favour of castration & sterilization.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@Timmycb5, Yeah, I agree with you. I wonder if the EU human rights court might prevent mandatory vaccinations.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Mr.Egg wrote: |
| stanton wrote: |
Nobody should be coerced or mandated to have a medical intervention. EVER!
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I dunno. I am all in favour of castration & sterilization. |
Thank you for illustrating my point perfectly 
| Timmycb5 wrote: |
| stanton wrote: |
A society that mandates medical interventions is treading a very slippery slope...
Please respect individual Choice...
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I actually agree with the bit in bold. Mandating a vaccine is only likely to entrench antivax sentiment further, and has potential iffy future consequences if you get a nutter in government. The governments should, however, be doing everything in their power to persuade people to get the jab. Including the introduction strict vaccine passports (including recovery or negative PCR within 48 hours, paid for entirely by the person wanting the test) to be able to do anything outside of one's home. |
Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Mon 22-11-21 17:18; edited 1 time in total
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| Chris_n wrote: |
| ... In UK people are largely only testing when symptomatic (maybe kids are testing for school I don't know). ... |
Not sure this is true. Apart from the education sector, I think:
- anyone working in the healthcare sector is regularly testing;
- anyone working in the social care sector is regularly testing;
- anyone visiting someone in a care setting is regularly testing.
And individual workplaces, events and social settings may be asking for periodic tests. I have had to take 4 in the past 6 weeks, and am expecting to be asked to take another before my sports club Xmas dinner next month.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Alastair Pink wrote: |
| munich_irish wrote: |
| @stanton, usual crap but unless you are prepared to go to prison for your misguided nonsense you wont be allowed into to Austria from February..... |
Sounds like stanton will have to change his username then, as he won't be able to get to St.Anton any time soon (or ever again if the virus continues to be endemic!)  |
One can only hope ... but I'm sure it won't be long before he starts proclaiming that he stole a MiG 29 from an underground military base in the Arctic Circle, flew it under the cover of darkness over Russia and Belarus, strapped his fat skis on and then ejected himself over the Valluga to have a 37 metre powder run.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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@ecureuil, that is not the same as everyone who is unvaccinated having to get tested 3 times a week to go to work regardless of the industry in which they work. The settings you quote while significant are a relatively small percentage of the workforce, I don't think my sister who is an NHS dietician is having to test constantly. Austria has been doing more testing than anyone else in Europe for months now.
4 tests in the past 6 weeks would have got you 8 days at work, compared with the 18 Austrians would have had.
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| Chris_n wrote: |
| @ecureuilI don't think my sister who is an NHS dietician is having to test constantly. |
Patient facing NHS Staff are meant to do asymptomatic LFT testing at home twice per week.
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@Chris_n, the hospital figures are not influenced at all by how many tests are being carried out. There might be some minor differences over who stays in hospital or not but he outcome is the same 80%+ of individuals in hospital for covid are unvaccinated (the rest are almost all the frail & elderly as with winter flu etc). Those figures are why the decision has been made in Austria for compulsory vaccination and why Germany is moving the same way. Those politicians who were completely against can read the figures and see the options are stark, let the health systems fall over or get everyone vaccinated including numpties like Stanton.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@Chris_n,
My brothers partner does PCR test twice a week, as she works in the hospital processing PCR tests.
A lot depends on how the data is being captured & if LFT & PCR are being bundled in together.
Wales is currently doing about 20,000 PCR tests a day.
Also doing 20,000 LFT tests a day, but they can be disregarded as anyone with a positive LFT must get a PCR & anyone still feeling like poo-poo after an LFT should get a PCR.
So pointless counting the same person twice.
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@anarchicsaltire, she will do what she is supposed to do just I'm not aware of her doing PCR tests.
@munich_irish, I know it makes no difference to hospital numbers but the case numbers are totally out of skew. As I said originally I am all for vaccination, it is the only way out of this. I was merely pointing out that UK and Austria / Germany are measuring 2 totally different things when it comes to cases not hospitalizations.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@Chris_n, I think you are probably right, it is one of the things that make it so difficult to compare situations. People looking on from the UK at the situation in Austria and finding it so perplexing, for most of the time it has been the same the other way around with a very negative view of the situation in the UK.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@colinstone, yes, there was a lot of confusion over the past couple of days, but some will reopen tomorrow. Others will delay slightly and open at the beginning of December.
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You know it makes sense.
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I see "vaccine is the only way out" way of thinking constantly being bandied about on this forum and then anyone who may speak out on the subject get labeled anti-vaxx or some other unsavory slur. Should we start abusing obese people or drinkers or smokers or call them anti-health as they will all have a greater likelihood of being a burden to the health system? After that we should abuse off-piste skiers, skiers skiing fast and those not wearing helmets as surely they will increase the burden on the health system and search and rescue services...
The renowned medical journal the Lancet called this out recently, saying stigmatizing the unvaccinated is not justified by science and is dangerous. For starters if you become a case you now have natural immunity, so how is a vaccine the only way out? Well the pharmaceutical industry wants you to always think there is some artificial chemical solution for every possible ill.
Natural immunity is a much better method of obtaining immunity rather than some artificially created version of immunity, however it doesn't generate any $$$ for big business.
In Ireland where nearly 40% of all exports is from pharma (by far the biggest export sector), they say there is 95% vaccinated yet cases have never been higher, who do you blame, those pesky 5% must be getting tested over and over to keep the case numbers high? Then the county with the most vaccinated, Waterford (apparently 99.7%) had the highest number of cases per 100,000 in the country and Monaghan, the least vaccinated county had the lowest number of cases per 100,000. It's a funny kind of immunity coming from this vaccine.
The most likely not to be vaccinated are younger age groups, these have near zero risk of death or ICU visit because of Covid. If the government manipulated the data and record a 14 year terminal cancer patient as a Covid death that's a different matter. But unless you have multiple chronic conditions you are very unlikely to be a "burden" to the health system, but if you currently have multiple chronic conditions you are a ticking time bomb for overwhelming the health system. So start dealing with the real problem, the poor health of a large percentage of people in particular in the Western world and stop blaming a virus. Start taking personal responsibility for you health as no vaccine is going to cure your high blood pressure, obesity, type 2 diabetes or cardiovascular disease. Otherwise it's like blaming rats for causing the rubbish to appear as opposed to rats appear because their is rubbish about.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@Peter Ross, do you think the vaccination rate across the population is unimportant?
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Quote: |
Natural immunity is a much better method of obtaining immunity rather than some artificially created version of immunity, however it doesn't generate any $$$ for big business.
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It also costs health systems and governments and so taxpayers $$$
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Chris_n wrote: |
| Quote: |
Natural immunity is a much better method of obtaining immunity rather than some artificially created version of immunity, however it doesn't generate any $$$ for big business.
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It also costs health systems and governments and so taxpayers $$$ |
My impression of the research is that immunity from infection plus one dose of vaccine provides a high level of protection.
Worth remembering that the side effects of Covid infection are on average much worse than the side effects from vaccination.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Chris_n wrote: |
| Quote: |
Natural immunity is a much better method of obtaining immunity rather than some artificially created version of immunity, however it doesn't generate any $$$ for big business.
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It also costs health systems and governments and so taxpayers $$$ |
And ends up with more deaths?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| ster wrote: |
| And ends up with more deaths? |
Yes, most certainly. By a factor that nobody should find tolerable.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@Peter Ross Of course, the dialogue shouldn't get abusive but it's to be expected when the issue so polarising: people who don't see a Pharma conspiracy and are happy with the concept of immunisation find it hard to understand the refusal of those who do. Especially if they think that such refusal is overwhelming healthcare services and actually prolonging the imposition of countermeasures. You quote the Lancet - but it's comments are not about the epidemiology, but the psychology: compulsory vaccination is an immunological imperative, but practically unviable as it's hard to implement and tends to force the vaccine hesitant in the wrong direction. But it's still the ideal from an immunological point of view.
| Peter Ross wrote: |
| Natural immunity is a much better method of obtaining immunity rather than some artificially created version of immunity, however it doesn't generate any $$$ for big business. |
I'd agree that the track record of Big Pharma and Big Tobacco in the USA is appalling. But this is a failure of legislation and free market extremism in the USA. It doesn't invalidate the role of the Pharmaceutical industry elsewhere. Just because US Pharma persuaded a free market healthcare system there to make everyone opiod addicts is no reason for me to reject all Pandemic interventions in the UK. VW falsified their diesel vehicle emissions - this makes me sceptical about all MPG claims, but it doesn't stop me from buying a car at all from any manufacturer.
| Peter Ross wrote: |
| unless you have multiple chronic conditions you are very unlikely to be a "burden" to the health system |
This doesn't seem to be the case, if you look at what frontline workers are reporting: see the article below.
Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Mon 22-11-21 21:01; edited 8 times in total
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| DanishRider wrote: |
When seeing statements like this, I lose faith in humanity. Are grown ups really treating each other this was? So it is perfectly okay to ridicule people with other opinions than their own ?
Honestly (Yes I have had two shots of the Pfizer, so by far not against vaccines), this behaviour would never be accepted between kids, and I can’t understand that any grown ups would tolerate it between adults! |
I think that’s a fair point, but what you might be missing is the context of his contribution to the forum for many years, which has been almost exclusively abusive towards the UK and trolling the forum more generally. When people push back against his hypocrisy in a very direct way you might want to consider that context.
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I was asked to provide evidence for the assertion that ICUs are full of unvaccinated people: here's an article from today by an ICU Consultant saying exactly this.
'ICU is full of the unvaccinated: my patience with them is wearing thin'
"Watching the mix of patients coming in with Covid, it feels to me like hardly anybody has been vaccinated nowadays; of course, this is because the people that have been vaccinated are getting on with their lives at home. If everyone got vaccinated, hospitals would be under much less pressure; this is beyond debate. Your wait for your clinic appointment/operation/diagnostic test/A&E department would be shorter. Your ambulance would arrive sooner. Reports of the pressure on the NHS are not exaggerated, I promise you."
On the whole, I'm more likely to believe a practitioner on the font line than an anonymous person on a forum selectively quoting abstruse statistical data, even if they genuinely believe in their analysis.
Last edited by After all it is free  on Mon 22-11-21 20:56; edited 3 times in total
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| DanishRider wrote: |
When seeing statements like this, I lose faith in humanity. Are grown ups really treating each other this was? So it is perfectly okay to ridicule people with other opinions than their own ?
Honestly (Yes I have had two shots of the Pfizer, so by far not against vaccines), this behaviour would never be accepted between kids, and I can’t understand that any grown ups would tolerate it between adults! |
I think that’s a fair point, but what you might be missing is the context of his contribution to the forum for many years, which has been almost exclusively abusive towards the UK and trolling the forum more generally. When people push back against his hypocrisy in a very direct way you might want to consider that context. |
I must say some of the vitriol directed his way especially of late has me feeling rather uncomfortable. It may be called “trolling” or is it a contrary opinion? Either way there is no need for some of the responses, it could just be read and ignored?
And rob@rar, please don’t think I am saying you are doing this, just an appropriate quote.
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| ster wrote: |
| And rob@rar, please don’t think I am saying you are doing this, just an appropriate quote. |
I understand that. I almost never read his posts here, only responding in this thread because of his anti-vaccination sentiment and gross hypocrisy. Mostly I just ignore him.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I understand that vaccination has been compulsory in the past - smallpox??
>Should we start abusing obese people or drinkers or smokers...
Well, the ASH campaigns played a large part of getting indoor smoking banned.
We do need more of a social contract - you look after yourself and we'll look after you.
There is too much "individual democracy" just demanding "my rights" and totally disregarding any individual responsibility.
>Start taking personal responsibility for you health...
Yes, so send the non medical exemptions unvaccinated ill home with an aspirin and Lemsip instead of them cluttering up hospitals and let them exercise their personal responsibility to look after themselves.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I guess they should be sent home, as not wanting a vaccination, surely they won’t want all the other medical interventions or nasty drugs that might save them post infection pumped into them?
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You know it makes sense.
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| Chris_n wrote: |
| @munich_irish, while I am in total agreement that vax is the only way out our figures are skewed the opposite way to the UK. In UK people are largely only testing when symptomatic (maybe kids are testing for school I don't know). The study linked further up has a disclaimer that people who are vaccinated in UK are more likely to be aware of their health and get tested at the first sign of illness. In Austria and Germany many unvaccinated are having to get tested to go to work everyday. |
My understanding is
All Kids over 12 tested twice weekly
All teachers and ancillary staff tested twice weekly
All NHS tested twice weekly
All care staff tested twice weekly.
I think retail & hospitality staff test but not certain, I’m sure there are others too.
So by no means is the UK only testing (nor have they ever been) symptomatic people. Have you seen how many tests have been done?
Last edited by You know it makes sense. on Mon 22-11-21 21:18; edited 3 times in total
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| colinstone wrote: |
I understand that vaccination has been compulsory in the past - smallpox??
>Should we start abusing obese people or drinkers or smokers...
Well, the ASH campaigns played a large part of getting indoor smoking banned.
We do need more of a social contract - you look after yourself and we'll look after you.
There is too much "individual democracy" just demanding "my rights" and totally disregarding any individual responsibility.
>Start taking personal responsibility for you health...
Yes, so send the non medical exemptions unvaccinated ill home with an aspirin and Lemsip instead of them cluttering up hospitals and let them exercise their personal responsibility to look after themselves. |
Smallpox still took a decade to eradicate globally.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| NE1 wrote: |
My understanding is
All Kids over 12 tested twice weekly
All teachers and ancillary staff tested twice weekly
All NHS tested twice weekly
All care staff tested twice weekly.
I think retail & hospitality staff test but not certain, I’m sure there are others too.
So by no means is the UK only testing (nor have they ever been) symptomatic people. Have you seen how many tests have been done! |
I think that’s all correct. Does the government’s encouragement to the general public to do a couple of tests a week still stand?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@colinstone, But if you're vaccinated, why do unvaccinated people pose a threat to you? The vaccines were always designed to protect the individual from serious illness or death-not transmission-and they are fantastically effective at this. Any effect on transmission was always a bonus, and they do have some benefit but not a huge amount. You are very strident about imposing requirements on other people. Now covid is the same level of threat as the flu (with vaccine), are you prepared to make the same demand on people for flu vaccines? If you're worried about unvaccinated people, you should be demanding people get tested-thereby guaranteeing non infection-not vaccinated.
You could equally argue that any child without MMR should not be allowed to go to school....? Would you support this?
I am not anti-vax, had two doses, will get a booster. Having done this, I have no concerns about whether anyone I come into contact with has or has not been vaccinated. The jabs I've had will protect me either way.
I do agree though that when health systems can't cope, anyone unvaccinated and needing treatment goes to the back of the queue.
Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Mon 22-11-21 21:24; edited 2 times in total
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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If my recent experience is nationwide then all hospital inpatients are PCR tested every 3 days regardless of symptoms.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| snowhound wrote: |
| @colinstone, But if you're vaccinated, why do unvaccinated people pose a threat to you? |
No Covid vaccines provide total protection, and for people who are most vulnerable to Covid there continues to be the risk of very serious illness or death.
More broadly, very high levels of infection and high demand on health services there is the possibility of social distance restrictions and even widespread economic disruption as a result of lockdowns.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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@rob@rar, I know. No vaccine gives 100% protection for anything. But those most vulnerable to covid are overwhelming those most vulnerable to pretty much any infection going around. Why make an exception for covid?
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| snowhound wrote: |
| @rob@rar, I know. No vaccine gives 100% protection for anything. But those most vulnerable to covid are overwhelming those most vulnerable to pretty much any infection going around. Why make an exception for covid? |
What sort of exception for Covid is being proposed?
It seems to me that Covid is nothing like any health crisis any of us have experienced in our lifetime, taking its toll in terrible mortality, directly and indirectly; long term health implications; a massive hit on our economy which will be with us for years, decades perhaps; a blight on young people; separating families for months on end. Nothing like that has ever hit us before. So if there’s a case for exceptionalism surely this is it?
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@rob@rar, This is the first time taking a vaccine in many countries has been required to access pretty much anything required for day to day life. It's never been done before for any other infectious disease, let alone one which is so highly discriminatory. 99.8% of people infected with covid has survived, those who unfortunately haven't have overwhelmingly been very old or ill already. I'm sorry but if you run a health policy based on this demographic then you'll be locking down every year for flu which can (and has) killed up to 40,000 every winter.
The economic hit has been down to political decisions made to try and manage covid-which are open to debate-not covid itself. I think it's pretty clear that globally, the impact of lockdowns will turn out to be immense on future health and eocnomic outcomes, particularly on younger generations which poorer countries rely on for their futures-poverty, stopping health campaigns, lack of tourism, losing out on education, drop in industry etc. Your average person in Africa is more concerned about educating or feeding their children , than they are on Covid.
I am a teacher-young people in the UK have been hit far harder by those political decisions than by covid itself.
Last edited by After all it is free on Mon 22-11-21 21:52; edited 5 times in total
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@Mr.Egg, "Smallpox still took a decade to eradicate globally". A bit longer than that, The Smallpox vaccine was developed in the late 18th Century, industrialised in the 19th (Louis Pasteur) and widely used.
A strikingly large smallpox epidemic occurred in London from 1837 to 1838 and exploded into a European wide pandemic. The authorities in England realized that some radical measures had to be taken, which led to the first Vaccination Act of 1840, providing vaccination free of charge and banning variolation. The Vaccination Act of 1853 introduced mandatory smallpox vaccination in England and Wales for infants up to three months old. So in effect the UK had mandatory vaccination against Smallpox from 1853 to 1974. The last death from Smallpox in the UK was in 1978 and believed to have been the result of a leak in a Lab. Sound familiar?
The Smallpox Vaccinae was then effectively mandated globally between 1958-1977.
However, Coronavirus cannot be eradicated. Immunity wanes over time and like Flu viruses, we will always need boosters.
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@RedandWhiteFlachau, Correct. There is no way of eradicating a respiratory infection, which mutates and which has an animal host reservoir to hide in.
Edit: Or Chinese laboratory.
Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads on Mon 22-11-21 21:47; edited 1 time in total
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FAQ
