 Poster: A snowHead
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It’s all been done before (as we well know) but even in combination with a transceiver and airbag combo - what could possibly go wrong?
Extracts from US patent:
https://www.google.co.uk/patents/US6412482?dq=avalanche+ribbon&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjArev_8ObsAhVikFwKHT5sBSgQ6AEwAHoECAMQAg
including the arrows pointing to the victim - Fig. 13
“The visual location indicator assembly 32 includes a coiled ribbon member 182 having an anchor end 186 secured to an upper inner portion of the intermediate wall 51 of the main pack member 50.
The coiled ribbon member 182 has a free end 188 which is allowed to be discharged when achieving the uncoiled condition indicated at 189 in FIG. 13. The coiled ribbon member 182 is dispensed in hopes of leaving a visual indication of a portion of the uncoiled ribbon member 189 above the packed snow after an avalanche and burying of the avalanche victim 20.
As noted in FIG. 13, the uncoiled ribbon member 189 has direction indicia 184 thereon and, more particularly, a pointed arrow indicia 190 which will allow the avalanche rescuers 21 to know which way to proceed to find the avalanche victim 20 in case only a mid portion of the uncoiled ribbon member 189 is exposed above the top surface of the avalanche snow pack.
As noted in FIG. 5A, the coiled ribbon member 182 rests on the ribbon support strap 61 and, after the closure flap member 62 is moved to the opened condition about the closure hinge member 64, the coiled ribbon member 182 rolls outwardly therefrom under the force of gravity in a natural manner when the avalanche victim 20 is caught in the initial stages of an avalanche as noted in FIG. 11. Hopefully, the free end 188 of the coiled ribbon member 182 will trail outwardly behind the avalanche victim 20 and leave a portion thereof exposed so as to be found by the avalanche rescuers 21 in a manner to be explained.“
Love the way the searchers look so nonchalant in their dubious headgear.
Nothing to see here, please move on...
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Tue 3-11-20 18:32; edited 1 time in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Tubaski wrote: |
| holidayloverxx wrote: |
| where's the popcorn? |
If you can't find it you should have tied a 5 meter ribbon to it. |
Perhaps the ribbon is rolled up inside the bag of popcorn.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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This is the best thing I‘ve heard of since the avalanche balloon and Rax skis.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Joe Axelrad wrote: |
@Dave of the Marmottes, Dave, I thought that after so many comments, you have looked at the pictures in my site and understood the product.
Give it a try and maybe you come out with a different point of view. I cannot educate everyone, but my attitude when joining a discussion, is to be open minded and do some homework.
That's why I am a senior, with a "little" life experience, and probably you are not (No intent to offend you) |
Congratulations on being less aggressive and moving to a more passive aggressive stance, it suits you.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Grinning wrote: |
It’s all been done before
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Is he wearing a corona mask?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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@Joe Axelrad, of course I looked at your site - although I needed to scale it down before I could actually read it! That's where I hoped to find (but didn't) an explanation that it is easy to attach/detach multiple times a day.
The "ski finder" element of your item is absolutely a powder trace. The fact that the tape goes in a little bag rather than stuffed up a salopette leg doesn't really make any difference. And the "avalanche rescue" element has also been in use by mountaineers for over a century, even though now largely replaced by transceivers. (Google"avalanche cord" - you will see that they already typically have arrows marked on to indicate which end is attached to the person, so are a bit ahead of your creation).
But what I haven't seen before is the linking of the 2 elements with velcro, so that the "avalanche cord" element can automatically deploy when you lose a ski - in an avalanche or at any other time. This aspect may actually have some merit, by speeding up post-avalanche rescue for skiers, so is what I would be emphasising.
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| ecureuil wrote: |
| But what I haven't seen before is the linking of the 2 elements with velcro, so that the "avalanche cord" element can automatically deploy when you lose a ski - in an avalanche or at any other time. This aspect may actually have some merit, by speeding up post-avalanche rescue for skiers, so is what I would be emphasising. |
What's to stop first responders on the scene wasting precious minutes "saving" a ski? You spot a flash of red, spend 8 minutes digging out two tonnes of snow, exhausting yourself in the process, and at the end of the ribbon is one ski from a pair of very lovely Whitedots.
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@rob@rar, Absolutely right, so you would need to have the tracer marked in such a way that identifies the ski from skier.
The next concern is the release of the ski, this is what unfurls the tracer from the pouch, at what instance in an avalanche does that happen, as you would need it to happen early enough and the ski to travel far enough to expel the tracer enough to stand a chance to get enough material out and on the surface in way that it is visible and not buried. The current material is 5m is that enough? what testing has been done?
From an old SH thread where the wise @davidof, imparted some wisdom on avalanche cords:
| Quote: |
Regarding the specifics of avalanche cords, it is my opinion they are not practical and were used for the want of anything better. Trailing 20-30 meters of cord or ribbon will interfere with skiing and other other skiers and could be dangerous under certain conditions. The cord can also get buried either during the slide or if there is a secondary slide or sluffing. If it is buried even 1 cm you won't rescue your buddy. Without any compartive figures for their effectiveness such as I have outlined above I believe that an avalanche beacon remains the most practical and reliable method of locating a completely buried avalanche victim.
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https://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=17700 - please don't resurrect this thread - it is in deep slumber!
There has to be a reason why something so simple is not being used and transceivers are the world over.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| extremerob wrote: |
| There has to be a reason why something so simple is not being used and transceivers are the world over. |
Exactly right. Why do snow professionals around the world say the trinity of shovel, probe and transceiver are necessary?
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Traditional avalanche cords were permanently deployed when skiing in risky terrain - you skied with a long "tail" of cord - which was a pain, and quite sensibly has been replaced by transceivers. But the idea of a cord that only deploys when you lose a ski, provided that cord is marked both (a) in a way that indicates whether attached to ski or to skier - and (b) in which direction is the "body", can only speed up a potential rescue. It wouldn't be a substitute for anything, you would still carry and use a transceiver, probe, shovel etc. It is an additional safety device that just might save a life, so I can't see that it has a downside.
The particular offering in this thread doesn't fit the bill at present, because those two critical provisos are missing, but it wouldn't be difficult to adapt to incude them.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@extremerob, Thank you for asking and I will try to explain:
| Quote: |
| 1) What exactly is this product, how does it function ( I have been to your site, but best to explain here for the clarity of everyone) |
1) a. There are 2 small pouches (14*9 cm, 140 gr each) attached to the skier's leg by an adjustable belt.
In each pouch there are 2 straps, each 5 m long with a velcro at their end (hook and loop).
The other end of first strap has a heavy duty - SS carabiner that is attached to the ski in various options, and the other end of the second strap in sewed to the pouch.
The straps are easily rolled around your 2 fingers and hold each one separately into an elastic holder into the pouch.
b. When you prepare for Avalanche Rescue mode, you connect inside the pouch the hook and loop of the velcro.
The force required to release the hook and loop is 5 kg. This force will not damage the skier knees of heaps, but is enough for the first velcro to pull out the second one
in case your ski detaches from your boot, and this will likely happen if you fall in Powder or in an Avalanche.
Once the velcros are pulled out, there will be a 5 m highly visible red tail behind the ski or behind the victim,
thus making it easy for the rescue team to visualize the place the victim is buried, or for you to find a lost ski traveling through powder.
c. When you prepare for Ski Finder mode, you don't necessarily ski in an Avalanche danger zone, then you don't connect the velcros, so if you fall, there will be a 5 m highly visible red tail behind the ski, making it easy to be found.
| Quote: |
| 2) Is it meant to replace current kit I carry for safety (probe, shovel, transceiver, or even ABS bag) - if yes which kit? |
2) It is meant to visually locate the place of a buried victim, if not too deep, or a lost ski in Powder.
You still need a probe and a shovel to find the exact location or to dig.
It is a very cheap product $35 including worldwide shipping, versus a few hundred $, and I created it because I lost a ski, and as a solution to those that would like to buy a transceiver, but cannot afford it.
I truly feel, I am making a service to the community, because $35 hardly covers my costs.
| Quote: |
3) If it is supplementary - why would I purchase it ......
4) Your device is not a technological improvement..... powder tracers are not new...... |
I believe is something new, well calculated, tested in the field by me, and I am not a novice. Not tested in an Avalanche, and I hope I never will.
It is not a Powder Tracer and you don't need to dismantle it anywhere, and a the very small pouch behind your leg over the pants and boots won't bother you.
| Quote: |
| 5) There was something called the "Avalanche Ball" |
This will be for an Avalanche, like the Avalanche Ball, but you don't have to pull nothing (and I doubt if in an Avalanche you have the time for it), and the straps are pulled automatically once the ski detaches from the binding.
Also the Avalanche Ball doesn't have the option for Ski Finder, and it is big and heavy, comparing to the 14*9 cm behind your legs.
And once again, you asked in a very polite way, and I tried to do my best. Not many did.
Last edited by snowHeads are a friendly bunch. on Tue 3-11-20 20:32; edited 1 time in total
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Joe Axelrad wrote: |
| Once the velcros are pulled out, there will be a 5 m highly visible red tail behind the ski or behind the victim, thus making it easy for the rescue team to visualize the place the victim is buried, or for you to find a lost ski traveling through powder. |
And this is what makes this product dangerous in the event that skier and skis are buried by an avalanche.
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@rob@rar: I saw many videos of Avalanches and is frightening.
Things are moving fast and erratically. I cannot tell what the behavior of my product will be, but once things settle down, when you see a red strap is Bingo.
I am lucky that I never had the opportunity to test it in an Avalanche and regardless of what product you carry, I wish you all guys: Safe skiing, and Never have the opportunity to test any product.
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You know it makes sense.
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| ecureuil wrote: |
| But what I haven't seen before is the linking of the 2 elements with velcro, so that the "avalanche cord" element can automatically deploy when you lose a ski - in an avalanche or at any other time. This aspect may actually have some merit, by speeding up post-avalanche rescue for skiers, so is what I would be emphasising. |
Velcro link: nope - done before also ...
Abstract of AT13118U3
Avalanche and deep snow sling in a pocket for quick attachment to the ski boot, snowboard boot or directly in a special trouser pocket (15) e.g. a pair of ski pants, two tapes connected to one another via a predetermined breaking / breaking point (5), the avalanche strip (1) being fixed in a separate pocket (2) or a trouser pocket (15) sewn separately or sewn in, for example, ski pants (13) or removable, such as an inner cord (17a or 17b) attached and the deep snow belt (6) is connected to the ski or snowboard, both belts are in the pocket (2 or 15), which in turn either via a belt (3 ) with buckle (4) around the ski boot or snowboard shoe or is packed directly in the pocket of the pants. The pocket (2) and the trouser pocket (15) are provided on one side with a hook-and-loop fastener (14 or 16) in order to allow automatic tearing out in the case of use of the two bands (1) and (6), whereby the predetermined break / tear break point (FIG. 5), the two bands (1) and (6) can separate, but need not.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@Grinning: You did a good job and I surfed the net and found it.
So it seems that I am not Columbus, although I thought I was.
I didn't know about this product and is very similar to mine. I think mine is better designed, and smaller.
I found it on Amazon. It sells for £ 60.42 and you have to pay additional international shipping cost.
My product sells for $35 including international shipping, and my intent is not profit.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Joe Axelrad wrote: |
| but once things settle down, when you see a red strap is Bingo. |
Bingo, eh? And what's at the end of that strap? A skier, or a choice of two skis which will have headed off in random directions? How long would it take to dig out one, possibly two skis, buried two or three metres under the snow before you find and dig out the skier? Have you ever done a search and rescue, real or simulated?
Sorry mate, you have no idea what you're talking about. The powder trace bit of your project is fine, although the hassle factor puts people off using them. But the 'skier rescue' part of what you've done is, on current designs, positively dangerous. If you really want to pursue this idea you should at least distinguish between the ribbon which is attached to a ski and a ribbon which is attached to a skier.
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Tue 3-11-20 21:27; edited 1 time in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@Joe Axelrad, 2 questions...
1 Assuming your traces are visable above the avy' debris (and you've picked the right one out of 3 posibles) and that it's possible to pull it up through said debris (both untested by your own admission), once you've dug down to the victims ankle how long do you envisage it'll take to dig through 2m of snow to their head? Or do you envisage doing a 360 probe search to discover there orientation before digging and how much time do you think this would add? Compared to a transceiver locating direct to their chest and bring within 500mm of their airway.
2. If the trace isn't visable (say torn of by the violence of the avy' or wrapped around the victim as they were washing machined down the slope or just not on the surface as you expect (without any testing to know one-way or another), how do you intend to find them with no tranciever?
Supplementary question... Do you expect anyone else to ski off piste with you if you don't have a tranciever to find them?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@Joe Axelrad, how can you say it has been tested in the field, but not in an avalanche, surely a field test should include avalanche testing as that is what you are trying to sell the product as. I don't mean for you to go get yourself in to an avalanche, but maybe send a dummy or something down and trigger an avalanche and see the outcome (obviously controlled).
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@rob@rar, in fairness, is the 'skier rescue' part not marginally helpful if paired with a transceiver - e.g. in the event of a big slide, it potentially allows searchers to isolate their search to a small number of critical areas?
I'm not sure I can see that it's dangerous in isolation (i.e. compared to the same skier without this system), unless there's a risk that it gets wrapped around someone's neck.
Though clearly it *is* dangerous if you're going to rely on it as a sufficient protection. And clearly it would be better with colour variation between skier and ski. But maybe as an added avalanche safety aid (and if you can be bothered with the faff) it might be ok? Maybe I'm being too generous...
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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This thread is turning into SnowHeads Gold.... 
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| adithorp wrote: |
| wrapped around the victim as they were washing machined down the slope |
I think this would be my concern – that you end up wrapped like a fly in a spider’s web, or the cord gets caught around your neck, meaning your buddy needs to add “rescue knife” to their avi safety kit...
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@Scarlet, I see no problem with everyone skiing with an assortment of rescue knives on their person... 
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@ChrisWo, I do carry a penknife (not specifically a rescue knife, that lives in the car), but it’s not part of my avi kit!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Scarlet wrote: |
| adithorp wrote: |
| wrapped around the victim as they were washing machined down the slope |
I think this would be my concern – that you end up wrapped like a fly in a spider’s web, or the cord gets caught around your neck, meaning your buddy needs to add “rescue knife” to their avi safety kit... |
At least if you did find the end of he cord you'd be digging out their airway before their feet.
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@Tubaski, would you prefer a. suffocation or b. constriction? There is no cake...
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| ChrisWo wrote: |
| @rob@rar, in fairness, is the 'skier rescue' part not marginally helpful if paired with a transceiver - e.g. in the event of a big slide, it potentially allows searchers to isolate their search to a small number of critical areas? |
If paired with a transceiver it might be of marginal benefit. But without a transceiver how do you know if the flash of red ribbon you can see is a skier underneath the snow with maybe 15 minutes to live, or one or other of the skis which are quite happy to sit there until the snow melts. Pick the wrong bit of ribbon and you have paid a huge opportunity cost in terms of lost time. Every minute you waste following the wrong bit of ribbon and digging out a lost ski is a minute closer to death for the skier.
| ChrisWo wrote: |
I'm not sure I can see that it's dangerous in isolation (i.e. compared to the same skier without this system), unless there's a risk that it gets wrapped around someone's neck.
Though clearly it *is* dangerous if you're going to rely on it as a sufficient protection. And clearly it would be better with colour variation between skier and ski. But maybe as an added avalanche safety aid (and if you can be bothered with the faff) it might be ok? Maybe I'm being too generous... |
It's being sold as a cheap solution to avalanche safety, by which I assume that's an alternative to a transceiver. Given that you can't rely on the ribbon alone, not least because you can't tell if it's a false indicator without wasting precious time, you have to wonder what the purpose is. So yes, I do think you are being too generous.
Ditch the 'skier rescue' part and sell it as a powder trace. The little bag which straps around the skier's leg looks like a big improvement on the 'stick up the leg of your ski pants' nonsense which made me soon abandon the things I bought 30 years ago.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| SnoodlesMcFlude wrote: |
| Joe Axelrad wrote: |
@Dave of the Marmottes, Dave, I thought that after so many comments, you have looked at the pictures in my site and understood the product.
Give it a try and maybe you come out with a different point of view. I cannot educate everyone, but my attitude when joining a discussion, is to be open minded and do some homework.
That's why I am a senior, with a "little" life experience, and probably you are not (No intent to offend you) |
Congratulations on being less aggressive and moving to a more passive aggressive stance, it suits you. |
Leave it out - I'm liking the implicit conclusion that I 'm one of dem dare yoof of today. Not that I buy the whole I'm an OAP who gets 4 months solid of pow pow a year but has never heard of a tranny schtick. There's some quality trolling going on somewhere.
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@rob@rar,
| Quote: |
It's being sold as a cheap solution to avalanche safety
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And therein lies one of the big problems.
At its least malign, it's the sort of thing my Mum would waste her money on buying me as a stocking filler thinking it was adding safety and that I'd have to pretend delight with before using to add safety to the wall mounted scrap wood collection in my garage.
At less malign levels, there are plenty of folk out there - (for whatever reason) not complying with (you reading this bit, @Joe?) the internationally researched, developed, optimised and followed avvy protocols - who might think it's just the very thing. When it absolutely is not.
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You know it makes sense.
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@Dave of the Marmottes, truth, blud.
Every time one of these threads crops up I find myself wondering if it's an elaborate sock from someone with too much time on their hands, especially when I looked at the late 90s/early 00s website. But photos and stuff look legit and seems far too much work for a gag.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| snowdave wrote: |
I have wondered about a transceiver that combines a satellite tracker with a conventional transceiver. The tracker would get you within a few metres of the last location (either under the snow if only lightly buried or a last location before burial), so you could at least know where to start looking. In almost every case this should be within transceiver range, saving the need for the "macro search" step. Given the various work Garmin has done integrating inreach capabilities into other products, it seems like a logical progression. |
You will have an issue with power consumption. Current devices are very low power but the second you start adding gps and OTA comms etc you start eating power. It may happen in the future with better batteries but seems to be over-complicating things with not totally reliable technology.
The current system does a pretty good job really. If you were designing a beacon today you might use different protocols and frequencies.
Introducing mesh networks and gps would probably cause more errors that it solves. The big issues with avalanche rescue are getting organized, moving over the terrain, performing an effective fine search to minimize digging time and then digging. The number of fatalities is not that significant given the number of practicants.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Quote: |
The big issues with avalanche rescue are getting organized, moving over the terrain, performing an effective fine search to minimize digging time
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Its often occurred to me that if you had a transceiver which had a second, detachable transceiver with it that you could "throw" say 5 metres away, and signals back to the main unit, you could triangulate a signal response quickly and reduce search time, particularly when you only have a single searcher scenario, and multiple burials.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@Grinning, You brought to our attention the US patent US6412482B1.
Did you read it? It has only 10,351 words (61,571 characters) and it describes a whole diving equipment with a full respiratory device and much more. (I didn't read it, but I was curious).
I don't know how much it would have cost, but I estimate you'd end up with more than $2,000. If you'll buy it, please inform us the cost. 
As I mentioned about my product: I saw Many skiers Off Piste without any Avalanche Safety equipment, and I saw many skiers digging the snow in search for their lost skis.
Although my product, The Ski Finder and Avalanche Rescue, may not be the best solution, it is a service to the community, it gives 2 alternatives in one product, it costs $35 including international shipping (hardly covers my costs), and it's the best solution for those that cannot afford the alternative cost of a few hundred $.
So, whether one buys it or not, is irrelevant to me. My intention in this topic, was to explain and to let people know, that out there is more than one solution, and I succeeded.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You haven't succeeded, you've got a thread full of people saying that your product ISN'T a solution. So there is still the tried and tested solution of shovel/beep/probe with an ABS type backpack if you've got the money.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@Richard_Sideways, that was the kind of principle I was thinking of, but instead of needing a second transceiver, just using the gps fix from one transceiver and relocate the same transceiver by running 5-10m in any direction which would only take a few seconds. 2 moves and you'd have a full 3D depth indication as well.
@davidof's point about complexity is reasonable, but the existing approach feels like it's built the best horse and cart possible, and now needs to consider a motor car. Meanwhile, our new friend is proposing a pogo stick 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Joe Axelrad wrote: |
| Although my product, The Ski Finder and Avalanche Rescue, may not be the best solution, |
Not only is it not the best solution, but in some situations which are literally a matter of life or death, your product is dangerous. You repeatedly fail to address this point.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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@snowdave, @Richard_Sideways, I suspect the problem with that idea is that tranceiver signals are picked up along flux lines and not in a straight line to the victim. Therefore triangulation would not work as you still don't know which direction the victim is in. If the signals did run in a stright line then simply following the signal would probably be quicker than triangulating anyway.
With good quality 3 antenna modern transceivers in the limited training I've done it seems to me that moving across the terrain to initially find a signal is the biggest delay, and again triangulation wouldn't eliminate that either.
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@Joe Axelrad, Given your 4 months annually riding the pow pow and your senior status can we assume that you have some means. Then please tell us do you personally use a transeiver or are you trusting your life and maybe that of your companions to your "solution" which isn't?
Declaring success? You are Donald J Trump and I claim my £5 (although in fairness he hasn't taken anywhere near as much hammering)
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@adithorp, You posted 2 good questions:
| Quote: |
1 Assuming your traces are visable above the avy' debris (and you've picked the right one out of 3 posibles) and that it's possible to pull it up through said debris (both untested by your own admission), once you've dug down to the victims ankle how long do you envisage it'll take to dig through 2m of snow to their head?
2. If the trace isn't visible (say torn of by the violence of the avy' or wrapped around the victim as they were washing machined down the slope or just not on the surface as you expect (without any testing to know one-way or another), how do you intend to find them with no transceiver? |
Unfortunately I don't have an answer. As I mentioned: Is an affordable solution for those that cannot afford more.
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| Supplementary question... Do you expect anyone else to ski off piste with you if you don't have a transceiver to find them? |
I am a solo skier. I realized that skiing in parties, slows me down and take out all the fun of skiing. Basically: I Ski Where I See, without any obstruction.
I do my homework and check at the beginning of the day about the daily avalanche forecast. So to your question: I don't, and I don't want.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@snowdave, I see where you are coming from - yes that could work, and in the case of 'n' multiple burials, you'd only need to get n+1 reference points to identify all points to within a metre or so.
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it's the best solution for those that cannot afford the alternative cost of a few hundred $
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no, it isn't.
The best solution for people who cannot afford to buy a transceiver/shovel/probe is to stay on piste or hire kit. Skiing is not a cheap sport, and although I would generally welcome efforts to reduce cost barriers this is the last place one should economise.
Suggesting that people ski off-piste in avalanche terrain without the proper proven equipment is downright irresponsible.
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