 Poster: A snowHead
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| ousekjarr wrote: |
...and without the SCGB liability insurance covering them.
So that’s fine then - anyone wanting to pay for their own season let, drinks, food and pass in return for leading SCGB members without insurance, please sign up below: |
the insurance issue is the Tea Club's.
As for the rest, well it is not actually a club in the usual sense of the term, it may have once been but has not been for a long time. It is like the many UK charities that exist not to do charitable works, that is just a cover to raise money, but merely to exist and provide comfortable employ for a whole swathe of executives.
Take the UK ski clubs that run under the Snowsport Scotland, England, Wales banners. There are volunteer instructors that give up their time to help and train others for no material reward. I don't know if they ever organise trips abroad but if they did they could teach or lead on snow if they did, they may have to inform the tourist office or maire of their visit as a courtesy but it would be possible. [update] just checked and I see UK ski clubs do organize trips abroad with their own instructors.
The SCGB had some weird set up where they scam thousands of quid out of "reps" for training with the chance of having a "free" ski trip chugging British punters for membership fees, hosting drinks in a local bar and hooning around the slopes partly subsidized by the local T.O. and lift co. but it was really a model from another era. DG, as his name as been mentioned, was always against the rep model which he saw as ski hols. for an inner circle paid for by an outer circle.
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Fri 10-04-20 9:43; edited 3 times in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Neat description of the rep system. DG may have had a point. Nevertheless I personally have benefited greatly from being a member of the outer circle. My only gripe was that by the time I could ski well enough to join the inner circle I was too old to qualify.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Jehu wrote: |
| Neat description of the rep system. DG may have had a point. Nevertheless I personally have benefited greatly from being a member of the outer circle. My only gripe was that by the time I could ski well enough to join the inner circle I was too old to qualify. |
I don't agree with DG's point. I think a ski club should be organizing trips both in the UK and abroad, on a non profit basis, insurance yes definitely should be part of the deal, perhaps some member discounts etc but it needs to be more like a club and less like a business.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Yes as Davidof says there is still a genuine UK ski club scene based around dry slopes, teaching, racing, and indoor and outdoor ski areas which are made up by genuine volunteers. These groups often organise overseas trips as well. The national snow sport bodies do a good job of supporting them with liability insurance, guidance and events. That is the real grassroots of organised skiing plus of course forums like snow heads and Winterhighland. We like to disagree sometimes but we share the passion for free 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| davidof wrote: |
I don't agree with DG's point. I think a ski club should be organizing trips both in the UK and abroad, on a non profit basis, insurance yes definitely should be part of the deal, perhaps some member discounts etc but it needs to be more like a club and less like a business. |
It's interesting to contrast with US travel ski clubs ( not the ones set up in resorts for youngsters racing etc).They might have a bunkroom type lodge in a local ski area for members to drive up to each weekend (geography dependent) but predominantly they seem to organise trips to other destinations, using their size as leverage to get good group rates on accomodation, passes and possibly other stuff like use of on mountain lodges for parties BBQs etc. People then do their own thing in terms of skiing solo, with friends, in small or large groups. Large ones may have 1000s of members and AIUI the sub is fairly de minimis.
Much closer to what a club is and objectively getting members a better deal than they can put together themselves. The resorts love them too and actively court them - they can put big numbers through a place in otherwise quiet weeks. Now I'm not naive enough to believe that there aren't some freebies and perks but I think they are in the form of the classic inspection/ orientation trip bribe to those making decisions.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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@Dave of the Marmottes, that’s exactly how the UK’s climbing clubs operate
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Not far off the SH model either
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| Richard_Sideways wrote: |
| Not far off the SH model either |
Snowheads is a "for profit" business. Nothing wrong with that and I don't think it is a secret. Indeed (and for all the socialists over on the apres zone) the Snowheads private business seems to deliver better value and service than the SCGB's "not for profit" model.  A vote for private enterprise.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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There is a desire to move back towards a club feel and focus, - the Freshtracks holidays are very good in fact (imo) but they are an add on, not visa versa. If you have a look at the new Chairman's background you'll see he too has this club first background. (he's also treasurer of the Alpine Ski Club) - so more volunteer and less professional - more member focus etc
In response to Jehu
| Quote: |
My only gripe was that by the time I could ski well enough to join the inner circle I was too old to qualify
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Don't know whether just in jest, however there are no age limits now. And a desire to open up the "Mountain Safety Course" (previously the leaders course) so more can do this excellent course, which will help ski safety with friends, whether with the SCGB or other - so not just for 'reps'.
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| davidof wrote: |
| Jehu wrote: |
| Neat description of the rep system. DG may have had a point. Nevertheless I personally have benefited greatly from being a member of the outer circle. My only gripe was that by the time I could ski well enough to join the inner circle I was too old to qualify. |
I don't agree with DG's point. I think a ski club should be organizing trips both in the UK and abroad, on a non profit basis, insurance yes definitely should be part of the deal, perhaps some member discounts etc but it needs to be more like a club and less like a business. |
What does that mean in reality? The Club has been run for the last few years with almost no regard for even the most basic principles of business and look how that worked out. Did it feel like more of a club during that time? No, it felt the same. I've been a member since I was 22. During that time I've skied with reps, repped myself, gone on the holidays as a paying member as well as as a holiday rep, also gone to events both official and fringe and in all those years, doing all those things, it sure has felt like a club to me.
Does being 'less of a business' mean not having paid staff and having all the admin done by volunteer ladies of a certain age who have never worked due to their social standing, just like in the first 50 years of the club? Are you expecting bookkeepers in 2020 to work full time but as volunteers? And how does that make the SCGB more of a club?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| davidof wrote: |
| I don't agree with DG's point... it needs to be more like a club and less like a business. |
I don't really understand - can you clarify that please?
I'm sure you're not suggesting it should be run at a loss.
Perhaps you mean that the profits of the activity should be more evenly distributed, which I think is essentially "DG's point",
which at some level below the bitterness is that the benefits are not evenly distributed between "inner" and "outer" members.
I'd go the other way, and ask if you were starting today, what's the need that this SCGB thing is going to fill?
Where's the opportunity? What will it offer which I can't already get cheaper and better somewhere else?
History is irrelevant. What next?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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It’s about culture rather than organisation and finance. For example I would argue that Snoworks is at least as much a club as SCGB, maybe more so.
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| philwig wrote: |
| davidof wrote: |
| I don't agree with DG's point... it needs to be more like a club and less like a business. |
I don't really understand - can you clarify that please?
I'm sure you're not suggesting it should be run at a loss.
Perhaps you mean that the profits of the activity should be more evenly distributed, which I think is essentially "DG's point",
which at some level below the bitterness is that the benefits are not evenly distributed between "inner" and "outer" members.
I'd go the other way, and ask if you were starting today, what's the need that this SCGB thing is going to fill?
Where's the opportunity? What will it offer which I can't already get cheaper and better somewhere else?
History is irrelevant. What next? |
On-snow: I've ran out of people who ski at my level within my social group. I like skiing with guides but getting a compatible private group together for a guided week is next to impossible and even if I could it would be more expensive that what the SCGB offers. Having done the Reps course I can act as a holiday rep and get a cheap holiday, just like happens with HF Holidays and their leaders
Off-snow: I like the official events as well as the fringe events. The discount I got in Snow+Rock in February paid for my membership.
I struggle to see what's not to like.
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You know it makes sense.
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| On the rocks wrote: |
| It’s about culture rather than organisation and finance. For example I would argue that Snoworks is at least as much a club as SCGB, maybe more so. |
But it's run for profit and you have no democratic rights within its structure. Anything can feel like a club. My local pub feels like a club but I'm just a customer. As a member of the SCGB, you own it in part.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@Gerry, hi- for those of us who don't know what is he structure of the SCGB and how does this relate to members / subscribers.
For example I'm a member of The Wine Society- I have a share in it, this has a value, depending on my length of membership. It can be inherited by another and if the Society is wound up then the share has a value that will be mine.
What part of SCGB do members own? (This is a genuine question).
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Poster: A snowHead
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I've tried to find the SCGB articles of association but am struggling, can anyone help.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| ed123 wrote: |
@Gerry, hi- for those of us who don't know what is he structure of the SCGB and how does this relate to members / subscribers.
For example I'm a member of The Wine Society- I have a share in it, this has a value, depending on my length of membership. It can be inherited by another and if the Society is wound up then the share has a value that will be mine.
What part of SCGB do members own? (This is a genuine question). |
If the Club was wound up you would get your share as a paid up member. Your share is the same whether you've been a member for 50yrs or one day. If the club is wound up at a loss, your liability is limited to £1.00
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| ed123 wrote: |
http://dro.dur.ac.uk/12075/1/12075.pdf is an interesing reda.
Why are there around 30 members of staff? |
There are less staff now but back then it was taking 30 people to run the various aspects of the club. Of course you have people doing things like payroll, HR, PR, IT and accounts, all essential. Then you had people running the on-snow repping and holiday arrangement, all essential. A lot of snowHeads have historically been extremely upset by the idea that people can work full time for the SCGB and get paid a living wage for it.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I'm also confused as to why it became a private company limited by guarantee rather than a cooperative.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Gerry wrote: |
| As a member of the SCGB, you own it in part. |
- looks like I have a liability - a tiny one, rather than an asset though.
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I have no objection at all to people being paid a good wage, far from it. I do object to an organisation which has too many employees. That is a completely different thing.
Why is there a Youth Strategy Manager- what do they do, have they done? Where are the youths that they startergise?
Likewise a separate Digital Marketing Executive, Creative Director, Content Manager and Partnership Manager.
I'd be really interested to know how the job appraisals of SCGB staff have gone over the last couple of years- including the marketing, HR, finance director, on snow operations etc. Because the metrics show that they have been pissing other people's money up the wall.
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| ed123 wrote: |
I have no objection at all to people being paid a good wage, far from it. I do object to an organisation which has too many employees. That is a completely different thing.
Why is there a Youth Strategy Manager- what do they do, have they done? Where are the youths that they startergise?
Likewise a separate Digital Marketing Executive, Creative Director, Content Manager and Partnership Manager.
I'd be really interested to know how the job appraisals of SCGB staff have gone over the last couple of years- including the marketing, HR, finance director, on snow operations etc. Because the metrics show that they have been pissing other people's money up the wall. |
The Chairman is going to publish a report.
| ed123 wrote: |
| Gerry wrote: |
| As a member of the SCGB, you own it in part. |
- looks like I have a liability - a tiny one, rather than an asset though. |
If the Club decided to fold tomorrow, the money would be divided up equally between fully paid up members. Your family membership would count as one fully paid up membership unit. I don't understand why your cup is half full.
| ed123 wrote: |
| I'm also confused as to why it became a private company limited by guarantee rather than a cooperative. |
It's non profit making so is pretty the same as a cooperative just no dividend to hand out. I wasn't there when they set up as limited so don't know what their considerations were. It also has the legal tax status of a sports club which I think had something to do with it.
Last edited by After all it is free  on Fri 10-04-20 13:53; edited 1 time in total
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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there are some totally different models of sports club and it is a pity that the SCGB has not taken those routes.
For example in Canada there is the MEC (Mountain Equipment Coop) - a shop - you buy outdoor gear for fantastic prices- but you have to join. I'm sure lots of people would join the SCGB to buy things like: ABS packs, transceivers, skis etc at much lower prices.
Likewise I'd hope that the SGB could have a more meaningful offer on things like lift passes.
As for ski insurance, there is a world of difference between the SCGB offering- which is general purpose travel insurance with good ski insurance tagged on vs the offering from the FFS- a Licence Carte Neige which is specific ski / ski training insurance without general travel insurance- with the addition of race / training insurance if you train with an FFS club.
It is a real disappointment that SCGB insurance does not cover racing - whilst offerings from MPS cover events like the Inferno as well as some other races as part of their (much cheaper) offering and race training and racing is a very reasonable add on. MPS will cover me and my family for International (TelemarK) Racing, rae training, off piste without a guide, the Inferno, Club Races etc at less than the SCGB offer for no racing at all. That is just not right.
It's also just not right that the SCGB is not a SSE or GB Snowsports affiliated club.
A 'Club' should be using its buying power to get the best deals for its members. Rather than generating money out of members for the continued existence of the club.
This sort of paradox- in which an entity is set up to further an aim, but immediately transforms into an entity to further itself is not exactly new.
I have enjoyed skiing with SGB members and leaders.
I am sad because I think it has lost its way, missed opportunities, forgotten about what people actually want and concentrated on some pretty disastrous digital offerings; Ski Club TV, the appalling website. It has also struggled to be anything other than the Ski Club of Richmond and Surrey.
Last edited by You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net. on Fri 10-04-20 13:49; edited 1 time in total
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| ousekjarr wrote: |
| @Blackblade, given that such a person, if indeed it were possible, could not operate solo and would have to be accompanied by a French instructor anyway |
Why would a qualified instructor need to be accompanied by another instructor ? Base level instructors can run a class.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| stewart woodward wrote: |
@Blackblade,
How would an instructor become an associate member of a ski school? Not sure if there is such a position in France  |
Most junior instructors are 'Associates' ... they are not salaried nor directly employed by the school. This is the case in most of Europe.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| ed123 wrote: |
there are some totally different models of sports club and it is a pity that the SCGB has not taken those routes.
For example in Canada there is the MEC (Mountain Equipment Coop) - a shop - you buy outdoor gear for fantastic prices- but you have to join. I'm sure lots of people would join the SCGB to buy things like: ABS packs, transceivers, skis etc at much lower prices.
Likewise I'd hope that the SGB could have a more meaningful offer on things like lift passes.
As for ski insurance, there is a world of difference between the SCGB offering- which is general purpose travel insurance with good ski insurance tagged on vs the offering from the FFS- a Licence Carte Neige which is specific ski / ski training insurance without general travel insurance- with the addition of race / training insurance if you train with an FFS club.
It is a real disappointment that SCGB insurance does not cover racing - whilst offerings from MPS cover events like the Inferno as well as some other races as part of their (much cheaper) offering and race training and racing is a very reasonable add on. MPS will cover me and my family for International (TelemarK) Racing, rae training, off piste without a guide, the Inferno, Club Races etc at less than the SCGB offer for no racing at all. That is just not right.
It's also just not right that the SCGB is not a SSE or GB Snowsports affiliated club.
A 'Club' should be using its buying power to get the best deals for its members. Rather than generating money out of members for the continued existence of the club.
This sort of paradox- in which an entity is set up to further an aim, but immediately transforms into an entity to further itself is not exactly new.
I have enjoyed skiing with SGB members and leaders.
I am sad because I think it has lost its way, missed opportunities, forgotten about what people actually want and concentrated on some pretty disastrous digital offerings; Ski Club TV, the appalling website. It has also struggled to be anything other than the Ski Club of Richmond and Surrey. |
Well, although I live in Surrey, I've skied with SCGB members from all over the country and indeed the world. So I'm not sure it's struggled too much.
Anyway, I'm glad you enjoyed skiing with the Club.
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Ed123
| Quote: |
I'm also confused as to why it became a private company limited by guarantee rather than a cooperative. |
The SCGB is owned by its members, each owns an equal share. Shares give votes and certain other rights, however normally the opportunity to vote is limited to the AGM. The most significant vote members usually get is the appointment of 'Council' (also Directors of the Club) and the Officers (also members of Council and Directors). These are the Treasurer and the Chair.
As such Council are representative of members and are the route to getting member issues aired. It is our job to ensure the Club is run in the interests of its members. We do also have a not insignificant business to run (£6m to or so) which is run on a not for profit basis (sic), - but this does give us additional legal responsibilities, sometimes challenging to juggle.
All council members and officers are volunteers, the articles prohibit any payment to them - quite rightly. However sometimes you need extra help from a Director (say when the executive are not doing their job), so this is a big ask.
Not unusually for a club of its type it is incorporated in a limited liability structure - this controls risk / exposure for Directors and owners of the club (members). The club is limited by guarantee. It is not the only structure that can be used, but it works well, and doesn't of itself undermine the principles of a club.
I think the club can, and should, do more to ensure openness and accountability - which for me is fundamental to any club. The new Council elected in late 2019 are committed to this and we are putting in place mechanisms to communicate and engage with members - the new Chairman's message echos this. If you've read this far through this rather boring note - and want to be more involved / have questions etc, do feel free to PM me.
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You know it makes sense.
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| Blackblade wrote: |
| stewart woodward wrote: |
@Blackblade,
How would an instructor become an associate member of a ski school? Not sure if there is such a position in France |
Most junior instructors are 'Associates' ... they are not salaried nor directly employed by the school. This is the case in most of Europe. |
Not sure if this is the case in France where all the problems were with regard to guiding.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| ed123 wrote: |
| I've tried to find the SCGB articles of association but am struggling, can anyone help. |
They're on the Companies House website. Find SCGB then go to "filing history" then filter by "Incorporation".
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Poster: A snowHead
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| stewart woodward wrote: |
| Blackblade wrote: |
| stewart woodward wrote: |
@Blackblade,
How would an instructor become an associate member of a ski school? Not sure if there is such a position in France |
Most junior instructors are 'Associates' ... they are not salaried nor directly employed by the school. This is the case in most of Europe. |
Not sure if this is the case in France where all the problems were with regard to guiding. |
Won't work in France. They'd have to be paid then there'd be all the tax to pay. Of course the French State is allowing some of its own citizens to lead without qualifications and get paid expenses.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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And then there’s Brexit!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| On the rocks wrote: |
| And then there’s Brexit! |
Which the legal situation in France predates.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Many thanks to Council members for engaging in this thread and helping to educate us. Many thanks too to Admin for creating this Forum. It is so much better than the SCGB's.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Gerry wrote: |
| I struggle to see what's not to like. |
Understood, fair points.
That also gives me the opportunity to snarkily point out that the entire SCGB leadership
appears to have been no more successful with that struggle over recent years
| ed123 wrote: |
| http://dro.dur.ac.uk/12075/1/12075.pdf... |
That's interesting as far as it goes. A large cost base and interesting demographics.
It's not my area of expertise, but rather like some technology businesses I've looked at, "I'd not start from there.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Gerry wrote: |
| On the rocks wrote: |
| And then there’s Brexit! |
Which the legal situation in France predates. |
Of course that is correct. But there is a vocal contingent on this thread and presumably in the SCGB arguing that SCGB leading could be brought back and all that’s needed is a positive mental attitude and creative thinking. Brexit would just make this even more impossible ( if that’s possible). Is this intransigence a factor in obstructing the changes the club will need to make in order to survive?
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| On the rocks wrote: |
| Gerry wrote: |
| On the rocks wrote: |
| And then there’s Brexit! |
Which the legal situation in France predates. |
Of course that is correct. But there is a vocal contingent on this thread and presumably in the SCGB arguing that SCGB leading could be brought back and all that’s needed is a positive mental attitude and creative thinking. Brexit would just make this even more impossible ( if that’s possible). Is this intransigence a factor in obstructing the changes the club will need to make in order to survive? |
That's is what's needed and it's also my mindset.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| On the rocks wrote: |
| Gerry wrote: |
| On the rocks wrote: |
| And then there’s Brexit! |
Which the legal situation in France predates. |
Of course that is correct. But there is a vocal contingent on this thread and presumably in the SCGB arguing that SCGB leading could be brought back and all that’s needed is a positive mental attitude and creative thinking. |
as I've said already, nothing stops leading or even instructing but not for remuneration in France. The French state is very strict on this for everyone. The only possible exception is school teachers with their own pupils but no school would take to the slopes without employing some qualified ski instructors.
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| stewart woodward wrote: |
| Blackblade wrote: |
| stewart woodward wrote: |
@Blackblade,
How would an instructor become an associate member of a ski school? Not sure if there is such a position in France |
Most junior instructors are 'Associates' ... they are not salaried nor directly employed by the school. This is the case in most of Europe. |
Not sure if this is the case in France where all the problems were with regard to guiding. |
Most French instructors are self employed are they not Stewart?
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FAQ
