Apols if I inadvertently led this quite serious discussion astray.
But then I suppose cake on snow sports holidays is an important matter.
So what improvements might SCGB make to recruit and keep more members?
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
PeakyB wrote:
So what improvements might SCGB make to recruit and keep more members?
decide whether it is a ski club or travel agent?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Dave of the Marmottes wrote:
And if the club has managed to lose more than £1m in a year, from a base of having such wealth and resources then the mind boggles as to what mgt has been doing.
Wealth and wisdom are not the same thing.
Happened to companies often enough, can also happen to ski clubs.
So what improvements might SCGB make to recruit and keep more members?
I'd say, serve some excellent Italian coffee (and/or thick Devon custard) with the cake. Alas, Admin never listens to my ideas for global ski industry domination.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
abc wrote:
Dave of the Marmottes wrote:
And if the club has managed to lose more than £1m in a year, from a base of having such wealth and resources then the mind boggles as to what mgt has been doing.
Wealth and wisdom are not the same thing.
Happened to companies often enough, can also happen to ski clubs.
Yeah but for it to happen to a club they are probably overreaching themselves. At 20k members its £50 per person not much less than their total membership take.
SCGB AGM on Thursday. Guess I could vote for spending that on coffee and cake for all skiing members rather than subsidising holidays, CEO pay and website. It would buy a lot of cake
Come to think of it that really is not a bad idea - free coffee stop for all members in a ski club group
If any SCGB member here has not yet voted and wants me to cast a proxy vote for them, coffee and cake or no ... please PM me
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
The problem for any legacy organisation is reinventing itself to be relevant for today and, more importantly, tomorrow.
Marks and Spencers have been trying for 20 years and still haven't found the solution.
Any big organisation has a lot of vested interests - take Microsoft - why didn't they ride the OS/Internet wave sooner? Because they had a lot of middle aged guys with stock options and pensions plans who were vested in the Office/Windows cash cow which they'd grown up with and could see that would last them, with a bit of luck, through to retirement. Any change would be disruptive and potentially put that in jeopardy. It takes a strong and determined leader with the right vision to change that kind of inertia.
Ski club, as others have said, very high fixed costs. What kind of "club" blows 1 million on its website? Normally you get Fred to stick up wordpress with a custom template and a few plug-ins. .
Does the ski club know what it is trying to do? Has it a good idea of what the public want from a "ski club"? Snowheads isn't a great model for them because sH is a few hundred active people, it wouldn't feed the beast.
First issue for the ski club is, apart from Scotland, which they largely ignore, there is little native skiing in the UK so they rely on guesting in friendly resorts. Well little native skiing outside the extensive snowdome and dry slope network. I don't know how they managed to annoy the French so much that their leaders got effectively banned because in reality they could be leading groups and even teaching like the DSV does in Germany or the FFS does in France. They could have reached out to BASI and Snowsports Scotland/England/Wales to do that as well as partnering with ski schools in the mountains. Is it a cultural difference between UK skiers and those in alpine nations?
Maybe there are too many diverse groups trying to represent UK skiers and boarders for all to survive?
After all it is free
After all it is free
@davidof, or they could have explored a partnership with the CAF
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
Weathercam wrote:
@davidof, or they could have explored a partnership with the CAF
Now that is a bit of lateral thinking !
They could also have asked you to do their website.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
davidof wrote:
...........They could also have asked you to do their website...........
One thing that I avoid is any website build that involves more than one overall decision-maker.
Even a simple Yacht Club site can be a nightmare with it having to go through committee approval.
Should imagine that's why the SCGB site project etc was such a monumental feck up
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
I suspect there is a lot of truth in what davidof and weathercam are saying. One thing British "clubs" excel at is layers of bureaucracy with elections and committees and grand sounding posts which give those in them status. Yet I think the SCGB long ago passed from being a " club" to being a commercial enterprise at which point it becomes less about the members and more about feeding itself , its execs and its employees ( in which I include reps).
When this happened I don't know but I guess I'd point to the acquisition of Freshtracks and CST's reign at a guess ( and I must admit I never really understood why there wasn't a conflict of interest there) at which point they became a TO with a considerable buffer of funds/property to squander.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Ski club Platinum membership including Insurance is Cheaper than my re newal quote from MPI Brokers
Conflicted?
Much research needed into the small print methinks...
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
My guess, because I've never been a member and wouldn't want to be, is that Dave of the Marmottes is correct.
They've tried to develop a club into a commercial enterprise, while still trying to run it with a "clubs" beaurocracy. it don't work.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
LOTA wrote:
I'm in but beginning to wonder why; have enjoyed discounts for kit, clothing and flights with Swiss, but that's about it. The magazine contains little of interest, I'm afraid (yet another feature on the City Ski Championships in Courmayeur - yawn!). I would like to ski with a leader/rep or whatever but they are operating in the same old resorts that they have for 20 years or more. I would like them to have a much more varied list (Saalbach is huge omission, for example). I'm on direct debit so must remember to cancel if I decide to leave!
yes, I like Austria but have skied in all of the resorts they guide in (except Zell - but that hardly needs a guide). Saalbach is a huge omission where a guide can be useful (Ski Miquel guide there from their chalet and that was useful last year for Fieberbrunn). And Solden maybe.
A lot seems to be down to what the resort offers SCGB - which is basically a free room and board in a hotel (of varying standards - the Mayrhofen one is not very good for example, but in Obergurgl they get the Edelweiss and Gurgl, 4 star), and, presumably a lift pass. Money may be well spent by SCGB to open up new resorts by funding a hotel room themselves - I would be more likely to keep membership if other Austrian resorts were added. Obertauen? Schladming? Even the SkiWelt.
I think a lot will depend on how much the reps actually voluntarily ski with members this year.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
davidof wrote:
... Any big organisation has a lot of vested interests ... It takes a strong and determined leader with the right vision to change that kind of inertia.
... Maybe there are too many diverse groups trying to represent UK skiers and boarders for all to survive?
On the first, yes. I think it also depends on the precise nature of the changes you're failing to adapt to - how fast they are, and how obvious the damage to your business is - it's a frog boiling issue. With the SCGB the changes may not have been abrupt enough to catch the attention of anyone who cared.
The concept of "representation" is interesting - how does that work? I'm thinking that I'm represented by the € and $ I contribute to the snow sports business, not by some people in a "club".
Does anyone have stats or a chart showing SCGB membership over time? I'm curious as to see where in the life-cycle they are.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
boredsurfin wrote:
Ski club Platinum membership including Insurance is Cheaper than my re newal quote from MPI Brokers
Conflicted?
Much research needed into the small print methinks...
Do you need cover in snow parks? They aren't covered in the standard Ski Club insurance. They also won't clarify if boarder and skier cross trails are snow parks.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Hmm only a year old but this vision of the future hasn't aged well - might explain how they managed to spunk so much money in their efforts to become the "trusted brand" in snowsports
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
They perhaps tried to cram too much in...but not a bad amateur promotional video I think. However, not very much of it seems to be about the future.
Reading their annual report, they're certainly on a risky ridge with limited visibility. One way leads to a reasonably safe if unexciting plateau. The other down a crevasse.
I hope the good people they have, those with real passion for snowsports, get listened to and are allowed to guide them to a sustainable future.
I hope those claiming to be...and I quote...a committed self-starter with proven exceptional communication and inter-personal skills ...don't become too influential, though I wish them well...and a place on a plain English course soon.
@PeakyB, I interpreted rather differently as an aspiration to be an end-to-end digital hub for Snowsports plus any sort of holiday or course involving mountains they want a slice of that pie. Music festivals? Gap year courses? Corporate events? The Amazon of ski hols?
Personally I think that's insane, unless you have truly deep pockets find a niche and do it well, not try to do everything because as a minimum you end you overpaying for those who are doing the things you can't yet do
The bit that's aged really badly in less than a year is the leaders leading groups.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Not a member, and probably won't join - as I ski mainly in France, and have other (non-ski) memberships that offer discounts on gear etc.
They claim to still have "hundreds" of reps, but in only 18 resorts, so an average of at least 21 per resort (based on 200 reps). Which seems a lot, for what is essentially now just a social rep. Or does each rep only cover one week a season?
@Dave of the Marmottes, the Eagle Ski Club operates on a shoestring compared with the SCGB but managed to run a full touring program, offer educational grants and subsidise various activities. When I was more closely involved, it ran a surplus. Don’t know about now. Its website isn’t exactly cutting edge but it does what it needs to do
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
@Dave of the Marmottes, the Eagle Ski Club operates on a shoestring compared with the SCGB but managed to run a full touring program, offer educational grants and subsidise various activities. When I was more closely involved, it ran a surplus. Don’t know about now. Its website isn’t exactly cutting edge but it does what it needs to do
May also help that ESC doesn't do insurance but goes through the Austrian Alpine Club scheme
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
Whitegold wrote:
A quick scan of the SCGB accounts shows it has become a posh travel agency for old people over 40 who live in London.
OK that proves it. Whitegold must be a Brit pretending to be American. No American in their right mind would have wasted the effort to look at SCGB accounts.
I mean seriously? You've blown the cover on your troll legend now.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
@Dave of the Marmottes, yes, know what you mean, just that it came across to me as so aspirational, pie in the sky, lacking any credible information about how and when, that I couldn't interpret it as a serious glimpse into their future.
Rather like a political party broadcast, or something concocted on The Apprentice in a couple of days. Heavy on rhetoric and images, lacking in substance, as regards the future. The stuff about what they've been doing for a while was OK. As you say though, they've ceased one of their most popular features.
The priorities that jump out at me from reading their annual report are: Doing fewer things better. Attracting younger members (65% aged 45 or over). Broadening appeal beyond the south of England (over 60% of membership in southern England or East Anglia). Reducing running costs.
The CEOs report backs up what you say about their 'all things to all people' aspirations. Risky strategy in a tightening market with reducing membership I think.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
ecureuil wrote:
Not a member, and probably won't join - as I ski mainly in France, and have other (non-ski) memberships that offer discounts on gear etc.
They claim to still have "hundreds" of reps, but in only 18 resorts, so an average of at least 21 per resort (based on 200 reps). Which seems a lot, for what is essentially now just a social rep. Or does each rep only cover one week a season?
Mostly 2 weeks per rep session I think.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Yes, mostly 2 week slots. There are also slots for Reps on some Freshtracks holidays and Zermatt will have two Reps again this year, although I suspect this will be the last time
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
I called by their coconut shy stand at the Ski Show. It was in a dark corner with no lights and some staff who really wanted to be somewhere else - at least, that's the feeling I got rightly or wrongly. For a show stand it was poorly executed and there was no evidence of any compelling reason why I should join up. The website lacks enthusiasm too and it doesn't make me want to keep checking in in the same way this one does for example - where 'new stuff' is happening all the time. You'd think with their resources it would be chock full of news and info but it really isn't. And again, when you go there, there is nothing making me want to join, nothing making me feel like I'm missing out. So sadly it looks a bit unloved and directionless. If I were advising them as a business, I'd say divi up the remaining funds among the remaining members and close the doors as it is the wrong product at the wrong time. The way back into the consciousness or wallet of the average snowsport enthusiast will be very expensive, unlikely to succeed with the current image and to what end? Younger people are never going to join up. Older people are going to drop off. That report and accounts tells the story quite vividly.
Having Leaders was indeed a reason to join. But firstly losing France and now losing everywhere else, it just takes away the biggest (only) selling point.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
All I ever got out of it was a few discounts like Snow&Rock. I never managed to hook up with leaders and less so since focusing on North America. Unless I buy some new ski gear I'm just paying a lot for the magazine which I don't really read.
Insurance offer is expensive compared to a lot of other options in my opinion especially worldwide.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
PeakyB wrote:
The priorities that jump out at me from reading their annual report are: Doing fewer things better. Attracting younger members (65% aged 45 or over). Broadening appeal beyond the south of England (over 60% of membership in southern England or East Anglia). Reducing running costs.
Some businesses do very well knowing their market and going after that. It just may not be possible for the ski club to attract younger skiers in large numbers
The thing about older people is there's another one along every minute, so not a bad business to be in.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
The other thing about older people is that they don't suddenly flip a switch and start behaving like their parents at a certain age - that's why M&S struggles, why BHS died etc etc, why people buty roadside assistance from more affordable offerings than the AA, why Vera Lynn no longer dominates the charts (apart from in Mark Francois's house)
I like skiing - I'm approaching SCGB's core age group but in no way can I see anything which would make me stump up to join unless it was in a handcuffs situation where I really wanted to go on a holiday or buy their insurance. In fact I'd probably be far more likely to buy either of those products if I could buy them standalone not linked to some "membership" I didn't need.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
@davidof,
Quote:
The thing about older people is there's another one along every minute, so not a bad business to be in.
True if you have younger snowsports enthusiasts coming through the ranks. Or are attracting more older members. Neither is happening now. 65% already over 45. Many already 55+.
Membership numbers down by 10% compared with two years ago. In 10 years time, an increasing number will be in the great apres bar in the sky, rather than pounding the mountains.
So its unlikely to be sustainable just relying on older clients.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
sugarmoma666 wrote:
boredsurfin wrote:
Ski club Platinum membership including Insurance is Cheaper than my re newal quote from MPI Brokers
Conflicted?
Much research needed into the small print methinks...
Do you need cover in snow parks? They aren't covered in the standard Ski Club insurance. They also won't clarify if boarder and skier cross trails are snow parks.
Below is a quote from a Daily Telegraph article (advertorial?) on skiing insurance not a week old.
Among the companies offering comprehensive policies is The Ski Club of Great Britain. Chief executive Ian Holt says: "Our specially designed insurance product caters for all forms of mountain experience, ensuring full cover for almost all eventualities, to suit skiers of all levels.”
The thing about older people is there's another one along every minute, so not a bad business to be in.
If the product is appealing to people of certain age group, no problem.
But if the product WAS appealing to people, who are growing older and dying off, but IS NOT appealing to people who are entering certain age, there's a problem.
So, just having 65% member older than 45 isn't a concern. But if the average age kept on going up and the overall membership dropping, it's more of a concern.
I'm pretty sure the "leadership" in the club knows there's problem. What's not clear is they know a good answer.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Just stumbled across this thread and I'm puzzled by the animosity in some of the posts. I am a SCGB member and have been for about 15 years. Joined mainly for the in-resort rep/leader/rep and I am dismayed by the pathetic hyper-risk averse behaviour of the current oligarchy in trying to unravel this service. Insurance is useful (and I have medical conditions - which I found them less bureaucratic about than other cover providers). Have done a Fresh Tracks which was OK if you want instruction most of the time. Expensive but still good value given what it includes. Discounts neither here nor there but it can be substantial when it's off the actual trip cost. Mattered to me when I had to book well in advance in peak periods. Now I tend to get late booking discounts which are bigger.
AFAICT, none of this is offered by Snowheads so I don't understand any kind of comparison let alone an unfavourable one. Even their website (which is rubbish BTW) is better than this old piece of 1980's memorabilia (which still looks like a dial-up forum). The crucial difference is perceived membership (might be actual membership but I don't think anyone's got the data) and the form of engagement. The SCGB membership is about 42% over 55 but the people who run it give the impression of being 155. A significant fraction of Club members live in (possibly retired to) the Alps and, though many are individually friendly people, they might be suffering from the common ex-Pat problem of being out of touch with 'back home'. My impression (but I have no firm data) is that this attitude is overly influential in the way the Club operates. the Club seems to set up communications with the membership to repel boarders not to encourage engagement. The website, Facebook pages, the crap app are all transmit - there's not much receiving going on.
People on this forum assert that membership is much younger but I don't see any data to confirm this. It's a great deal more interactive than the SCGB is I'll definitely give it credit for that. As you provide nothing more than a forum for people to talk to each other (and a valuable facility that is) you will get young people with no money trying to get on the snow as cheaply as possible. The membership profile of the SCGB means they are not sufficiently interested in that issue to do anything about it. It's also dominated, IMV, by very competent and experienced skiers who obsess about skill level gradings when they should be worrying about getting new people on the snow.
There's a lot wrong with the SCGB and, if it doesn't do something about it, it will be an ex-Club. But there's a lot of ignorant snipping from members of this forum who know nothing of which they speak. A final point on that topic. SCGB in-resort leaders work in resort usually for two week stints. They get free board and lodging typically provided by the resort so it's generally pretty basic. they get subsidised but not free transfers. For this they spend 6 days per week steering people they don't know around the resort on and off piste. Even when they are working on Snow Tracks paid holidays they don't get paid. Having met a few now I'd say that the motivation is a) they love the snow and want to help other people enjoy it and b) they are friendly outgoing people to like meeting other people. Haven't yet met one who's doing it to blag a free hollday.
Just stumbled across this thread and I'm puzzled by the animosity in some of the posts.
Hi Paul, I know it is a pain but it would be good if you could reference the posts / paragraphs that have puzzled you. This thread seems, to me, to have been quite reasonable, discussing ideas for how the ski club could reinvent itself.
I'm not sure about this obsessing about skill levels, the ski club has formalized skill levels, there is no such thing as a snowheads "skill level" afaiks. Most people, bar the one or two pros on the forum or one or two people without self awareness, class themselves as advanced intermediates.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
@paulecrisp,
Quote:
As you provide nothing more than a forum for people to talk to each other
What? I think your perusal of the forum has been somewhat limited. Have a look at some of the Bash threads in the Events forum.
Quote:
Have done a Fresh Tracks which was OK if you want instruction most of the time. Expensive but still good value given what it includes.
The instruction I've received on numerous snowHead Bashes has been streets ahead of what I received on two (admittedly that's not many) Freshtracks trips, in both quality and value for money.
After all it is free
After all it is free
@davidof,
Quote:
here is no such thing as a snowheads "skill level" afaiks.
No, and certainly not as a criterion for attending a Bash, but a lot of us refer to Inside Out Skiing's levels for the purpose of pitching where/how to get tuition.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
@paulecrisp, Nice one. Have a go at "ignorant sniping" from the unwashed in a post in which you lump in more criticism of the SCGB than anyone else. OK the free holibobs post was a bit facetious but it's never been more true now that the reps are expressly forbidden from leading people on the slopes.
You also need to understand the history. sHs would not have existed were it not for a money grubbing decision by the brass in the SCGB to go all paywall members only on forum user generated content. sHs succeeds by being a broad church and accomodating non comformists, experts, beginners and BSers alike. And yes many who do succumb to IRL events do end up making real friends and having a really good time.
But this thread isn't a about sHs v SCGB. It's a relatively mature ( given that the 2 usual suspects who usually make SCGB threads a dumpster fire are largely absent) discussion of the issues facing the SCGB. I personally have nothing to lose or gain by SCGB's collapse or soaraway success* but I find it interesting as a case study of sorts in a sport I am passionate about.
*Possibly not quite true I would be upset if SCGB types were refugees from a sinking ship and tried to take over bashes by assigning coloured gradings to everyone and dictating who should ski with who or making it a feature of social chit chat. ( Note some hyperbole here but I have sat at an adjacent table to a SCGB group once where the conversation seemed to be about where and when everyone earned purple or vermillion status)
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
@Dave of the Marmottes,
Quote:
sHs succeeds by being a broad church and accomodating non comformists, experts, beginners and BSers alike. And yes many who do succumb to IRL events do end up making real friends and having a really good time.
Exactly. The fact that I, as a wrinkly intermediate skier, have made good friends with - and skied with - people who are both brilliant skiers and are half my age, reflects just that.
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
