 Poster: A snowHead
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| Rusty Guy wrote: |
| i guess one older pro explained it well. he said. we used to turn-traverse-turn. now we are essentially are turning all the time. |
...and therein lies my fundamental objection to the whole ethos. NO YOU ARE NOT! (sorry for shouting). You may well be turning if a) the slope is gentle enough for your technique to cope with it and b) you aren't trying to get somewhere straight ahead of you. But, as Bridgit Jones demonstrates, a) is certainly not a given even on "groomers". You absolutely MUST have a means of getting out of difficulties when that happens - and if you as instructors don't you are seriously short-changing your students. Now with your following sentence it sounds like you actually are teaching the required techniques, but just not calling them that - and maybe not telling the students where they would be most useful/necessary? Just seems a bit strange to me.
WTFH's comments also seem pedantic to the point of ridicule. Sure a ski will try to turn up the hill if put on the edge, but that's presupposing a pefect edge-hold on perfectly grippy snow. When snow is soft (now we are talking more off-piste) it will give a bit under the ski, so even if you have a well engaged edge the snow will be slipping down under it and you may well be going straight across, or a bit down. If you are in harder snow it's frequently because you are following a track someone else has made, and the base of the track is actually fairly flat, so you don't have anything like the edge you would think from the angle of the slope. There need be nothing of the "series of very slight turns" about it - if that is the case then you're just not controlling the amount of edge hold very well.
What you both have said though is that you do teach/practice edge hold and release. However, there is a continuum between the two states, not an either/or condition. Put just the right amount of edge hold on and you go straight, release a bit more if you want to drop, and (something the increased sidecut of modern skis allows you to do more effectively) put a bit more on if you need to climb a bit. So it is certainly NOT impossible to teach a traverse on modern equipment - you may actually have more to teach and more flexibility in doing it.
While thinking about this it struck me that an interesting drill would be to make a nice smooth curve on the snow, while keeping the skis across the hill at all times. Start in a traverse (or uphill if you really must), then progressively release the edge, going through a diagonal descent, until you're in a vertical sideslip, then increase the edge again to drift backwards, until you finish up in a backwards traverse. This is obviously an extension of the "falling leaf", but extend more into the traverse at each end, and the idea would be to make the changes as gradual and smooth as possible. I've not really done this myself fully, but I've come pretty close to it when negotiating particularly tight tracks through steep woods/crevasses. Anyone come across this before?
And I tried out another variation recently - the high-speed sideslipping traverse! We had a rather short time to make the last lift, and a fairly long off-piste route to do. At the start the guide issued strict(ish) instructions that if we fell we had 10 seconds to get back up again then set off. Part way down we hit a traverse along a rather bumpy rutted icy track. Some had the skill to just do this at full race carve, but others of us really wanted to be a bit more cautious, so scrubbing off speed was certainly in the equation. What seemed to work best then was about a 20 degree sideslip angle and controlling the edge grip to keep the speed at something reasonable - on the edge in more ways that one! We ended up doing the run in 18 minutes, making the lift with 12 minutes to spare, but the guide did reckon he'd once done it 4 minutes quicker  . (I actually went back two days later and did the run again at a more reasonable speed - taking about 45 mins - and realised there were some absolutely lovely views to be had too  )
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Following from GrahamN's last two paragraphs.
I have often found places off piste where side slipping is appropriate and where directional control is also needed. An example is narrow strips of snow between grass and rocks etc, places too steep and narrow to ski down but the only way out from some nice snow. At the top of the strip you choose left or right ski downhill then sideslip down with forward or backward motion as needed.
Another use for the high speed sideslipping traverse is on a narrow path where many previous skiers have packed the snow down into a hard concave (almost 'U' shaped) track. The steep sort of path that might just be passable by a car in the summer. Snowplowing down such a path works but is tiring. I now try and sideslip along on one side of the path, although I watch the track carefully and may frequently change sides or do a bit of snowplowing.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Following up on comments by WTFH and Rusty Guy, I should say that my first ever ski lessons were from PSIA instructors in the US, and by the end of my first week's skiing I could both traverse and sideslip.
The traverse was formally taught very early on as a safety net - on the basis that if you found yourself in the wrong place, you'd always be able to escape by traversing across to something more comfortable. (This doesn't always hold true, of course - in Whistler this season I was in a class with a group that were doing one of the steeper bowls, and one of our number failed to hear the instructor's advice to keep well over to the left, where the pitch was somewhat mellower. Consequently he kept traversing over to the right, with the slope beneath him trending ever more to the vertical. Eventually he came to a stop, because he couldn't traverse any further due to the presence of a cliff band. The realisation that the only way was back, and that he'd actually have to commit to a turn caused instant paralysis followed by edge-release followed by a very long slide culminating in a yard-sale, the whole accompanied by a screech of terror. And then we all had to go back and ski the same line to try and find his mobile phone).
- I digress. While we learnt to traverse, the sideslip - or really the edge-release - was taught rather differently. We were certainly taught how to initiate our entry to the slope by gently rolling our feet to flatten the ski and allow it to tip downhill into the fall line, so that we could continue round into the first turn. This worked pretty well, even for a rank beginner. It still does. A couple of days later, I learnt how to sideslip properly - again at the instigation of an instructor, but rather less formally.
I was going solo by this time and skiing along a cat-track when I came to a section that seemed - at that time - impossible. A steep banked turn (well, it seemed steep to a beginner) that was sheer ice. I was stuck clinging to this like a spider in the bath until an instructor leading a group of students came round the corner. She saw my plight and yelled "sideslip it" before disappearing down the track. So I did. And that's how I learnt to sideslip.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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There's a drill I use to dial in my edge controll. The best way I can explain it is to face one way across the hill while dropping vertically in a side slip. Then turn 180 deg while keeping any horizontal movement across the hill to a minimum. Imagine a corridor down the hill ca 2m wide and try to stay in it while dropping down and turning.
It was a tip I picked up on Epicski from Bob Barnes (a PSIA instructor).
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GrahamN,
I'm sure you are getting to places where you just have to wing it with what you have got, and if you have been to these type of places often enough, and you have skied a bit, you just work it out. I['m not too familiar with the so-called technical terms but a forward and backward side-slip is an absolute must, especially if the terrain is barely ski width wide. Its all about the control of edges.
Also, try this on very icy pistes when your skis aren't sharp enough... A side-slip schuss...I'm not joking.... typically to use on the 4 o'clock run at GM or such like..when the slope is an awkward camber and you are knackered..!!! Great fun and you get some funny looks from people struggling as you past then doing 15-20 mph...!!!
I find my traverse is best on my weaker left foot...not that my right foot is at all shoddy, on very steep terrain because you practise it so much getting to the untracked stuff. You spot a slope on the way up and then you work out how to get there...if its easy, then it will be tracked. That why in Europe the traverse and side-slip is so important, you use the former to get to it, and the latter to get out of it, because you have ended up in the trees and missed the way out...!! Been there, zillions of times..... 
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DB, if I get you right (that you're actually turning your skis through 180 degrees, as opposed to what I was suggesting, where the skis remain facing the same way throughout), that's very similar to one of Phil Smith's twisting exercises - although not really aimed at edge engagement control. Face down the hill, hold your poles hard against your hips using the flat of your hand (or wrists) only, then slide down rotating your femurs in the hip joints to cause the skis to face first one way perpendicularly (or as close as you can manage) to the fall line, then the other. The important point here is to keep the poles (and therefore your hips too) facing down the slope throughout, so stressing that the movement is from the hip joints and below rather than anything to do with upper body motion. As with most of his drills it can end up being quite energetic!
JT sometimes my "controlled" descents have turned into the "side-slip schuss", but as I spend more time on a dry slope my edge engagement gets better, so I'm generally more comfortable in those conditions with linked s/carves now. Give it a go (body armour useful though)!
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GrahamN,
Sounds like it's a very similar (maybe even the same) exercise. Seems to be a very good exercise for getting the skier to match edge angles and get a good feel for their edges.
I haven't worked out why yet but when traversing a narrow track in the soft snow (as in Arno's pics) earlier in the year I tended to pick up a lot more speed than others. Often had to pop out of the track into the soft snow to slow down. Getting the skis off axis to the line of travel can be dangerous as one unseen imperfection in the snow and your skis catch the sides walls sending you into a spin.
Traversing on a smooth piste is one thing but traversing on a narrow hard rutted offpiste track with sidewalls is another. Any 'methods' or tips for speed control in narrow tracks?
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DB& GrahamN, that's known as braquage or pivot slips.
It's the first thing I do at the start of my first run each day as a great way of getting centred & for getting the feel of the snow. It's also the first thing I do when demo'ing different skis as it gives me a lot of feedback about how the skis handle.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| DB wrote: |
| I haven't worked out why yet but when traversing a narrow track in the soft snow (as in Arno's pics) earlier in the year I tended to pick up a lot more speed than others. Often had to pop out of the track into the soft snow to slow down. Getting the skis off axis to the line of travel can be dangerous as one unseen imperfection in the snow and your skis catch the sides walls sending you into a spin. |
I quite agree that side-slipping at speed is a high risk activity, and I was expecting to be given a hard time over that traverse I reported above. In that case I felt the higher risk of taking a sudden flip onto my face was a better bet than getting to a speed that would have caused much more serious consequences if I did fall.
| Quote: |
| Any 'methods' or tips for speed control in narrow tracks? |
Now I'm exactly the right, or wrong (depending on how you look at it), person to ask this of, as I have exactly the same problem as you - and even a couple of weeks ago (when we were trying to keep as much speed as possible coming up to an uphill section) ended up outgliding Emma Carrick-Anderson on a flattish piste  . I've put it down to either being heavier, having longer skis (I ski on 184cm) or better waxing (I normally use a hard low temp wax mixed in with with Zardoz liquid PTFE). Other than your solution, which I've also used, you can try the usual technique of periodic small edge digs. If you're on a genuine footpath/track with even more space available (maybe the track has say 10 metre long patches of a couple of metres skiable width) and more severe braking required then you can put in a sequence of very short radius braking turns, provided you're quick enough.
The other one I've started using when in a genuine soft-snow traverse and the sides of the ruts are fairly soft is to stop the speed buildup at source by shaving the edge of the uphill side of the rut with the edge of the ski's shovel, which gives a fair degree of braking - i.e. a fractional version of what you are currently doing. Do this consistently and you can avoid picking up too much speed, and adjust the amount of shaving you do to match your speed of the rest of the group. The major danger of course is that you catch your tip on a sudden lump of harder snow in the sidewall and get pulled into a full on hockey stop, and ensuing ear-plant - so don't do that in seriously lumpy snow, or again at anything much above a fast walking pace, and do keep a very close eye on the snow directly ahead of you.
If all else fails, stop until a large gap between you and the guy in front has developed ("for avalanche protection" of course), and then take the pitch at your natural speed and then do a soft snow stop just as you catch up with him, at the next "safe spot" on the slope, natch  . The art of snowmanship.
However, I'm sure there must be more official methods than these rather ad hoc solutions.
spyderjon, yes, I thought so, but didn't use the term due to I suspect a different technical emphasis - in Phil's use it's not so much an exercise in edge/balance control (although you probably can't do the exercise to start with unless you've got that right) as in loosening the hip joints.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| easiski wrote: |
| Rusty Guy, Then you must have knder slopes or more obedient pupils!!! Seriously, what happens to continuous turning students when they get to the steep bit of a blue run. They may not be good enough yet (probably only about day 3) to ski down it with turns - how do they get down? I want to know??? ( |
the last thing i would do is to take a student on terrain where they cannot turn or where there balance is disrupted. we are very careful to never "over-terrain".
folks please continue learning how to go across a hill and i'll teach students how to go........downhill.
you know this reminds me of something i tell plenty of students who come to the USA and take mogul lessons as i see them traversing and/or "shopping" for a line in bumps. it goes something like this, "you traveled all that distance across the atlantic to go downhill and you're doing everything you can to keep from doing so."
here is one more approach to this matter. good skiing is about making circles. we make circles via movement. stop moving and you make straight lines.
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Hi Easiski & Rusty -
I pretty much agree with Rusty's observation that here in the US, it is rare anymore to see an instructor specifically teaching how to traverse. However, some of the common drills that we use (eg, sideslipping, garlands, falling leafs, pivot slips, teaching angulation by attempting to pull a stopped skier down the hill by the poles, etc.) most certainly do attempt to develop and refine edge control skills.
OTOH, now that Easiski has pointed out this possible omission, I am forced to agree with Charlotte's comments on the importance of spending some time specifically teaching traversing. Numerous times in the past few years, I have come across people (similar to Bridgit) who *really* needed to know how to traverse. The situation was always the same. The snow would be hard, and I would happen upon them, almost frozen with fear, after they had gotten themselves onto a slope (or part of a slope) they couldn't handle, and a traverse was the best way out, but they simply couldn't hold an edge.
(Perhaps) To PSIA's credit, I never found one person in this situation who had ever taken more than a few of our lessons, so maybe what we are teaching about edging without specifically covering "how to traverse" is working. OTOH, there are many other variables at play here, eg, people who take lessons are less likely to get themselves onto terrain that they shouldn't be on.
Personally, I occasionally do teach traversing. Sometimes, it simply seems like the right thing to do (eg, as part of a lesson on edge control). Other times, I'll teach it to clients who got themselves talked into taking a trip to a "big mountain", are nervous about it, and obviously want to learn some "survival" skills.
Tom / PM
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You know it makes sense.
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I continue to share easiski's puzzlement. Traversing is not just an edge control excercise nor just a handy way of getting out of trouble. It's a basic part of skiing. If you think that skiing is only doing linked turns and nothing else, you're wrong. Traversing across a slope to get to the other side of it or just because you want to is just as valid a way of skiing a slope as turning down it. Surely, everyone must do a bit of traversing every day they ski. Or is it just me?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I've previously found many of Rusty Guy's posts interesting and useful, but here I think his philosophy completely barking. Skiing is NOT just about going downhill, it's about travelling in, through and on the mountains, and experiencing what they offer you. Downhill is the source of the motive power. So if the student in a training exercise wants to shop for a line through the moguls that the prefer (either because it's easier or more challenging than the one directly below them), why shouldn't they?
He may make sure that the student isn't overterrained, but what happens when the poor dear goes out into the big bad world on their lonesomes. They may not know about the steep slope around the corner from the gentle gradient at the top of the piste. So without their protecting angel they're stuffed. Or is it that all Colorado slopes are so battered into submission there's not more than a 2 degree variation in gradient over their entire lengths? Maybe this is the explanation of why I've met several Colorado residents on the slopes in Europe who, when I've talked about my limited experience of skiing over there, have asked me "why would you want to ski there....it's so boring!"
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Poster: A snowHead
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richmond, there is no doubt that traversing is an oft used approach to line selection, and it should clearly be in the bag of tricks of any skier above the level of novice. The ability to traverse competently is clearly needed for all-conditions full mobility when on a mountain.
I would note, however, that the fraction of one's "real skiing" time spent in traverses seems to drop monotonically with ability above the level of intermediate. For example, these days, when I need to switch from one side of a run to the other (ie, the example you gave), I now find it MUCH more fun to make a very large radius swooping turn to shift lanes, whereas 20 years ago, I would have traversed over in a straight line, and then started turning again (ie, made a Z-lane change, not a curvy one). Keeping the curves always going is a much more active, fun, graceful way to ski.
I have a similar attitude to most traverses as I do parallel parking a car: I can do both in my sleep; every new driver/skier needs to learn how to do both; and they are both extremely useful and equally unexciting. To me, most traverses are like driving the family car on the motorway to get to the next town, versus driving there in a sports car on a curvy country road. Sometimes conditions or terrain dictate that you have to traverse to get where you are going, but they just aren't the main attraction to skiing.
On the other hand, a traverse-turn-traverse path (ie, wide Z-turns) as a means to descend the mountain clearly has some advantages. Skiing such a line is like walking down a mountain on a switchback trail. The slope of the switchback trail (or traverse in skiing) is much less than the slope straight down the fall line. It's a relaxing, energy conserving, low-G-force way of skiing, entirely appropriate when you are tired, useful to older or less athletic skiers, etc.
I think that the real question is how/why did explicitly teaching traverses drop out of favor here in the states. My theory is that there was/is a fear that if you explicitly teach traversing to a lower level guest, it will completely dominate their approach to skiing, and if they ever want to improve beyond this point, it will take as long a time (ie, years) to break them of this habit as it did for all of us old-time skiers to change over to more modern technique.
I certainly see this argument, but I also realize there are a large number of guests, perhaps the vast majority, who will never care one iota if they ski in sine waves or Z's, and the Z-turns can be a very appealing, useful way for them to ski. If I get a 20 y.o. low level ski student who is obviously jazzed about the sport and is likely to progress to advanced skiing, I probably won't explicitly teach them to traverse unless it's necessary for some particular terrain situation. They'll pick it up on their own from all the edge control exercises we do. OTOH, if I get a 65 year old, non-athletic guy who just wants to be out with his grand-kids a few days a year and see as much of the mountain as possible, I'm not worried about poisoning his mind with Z-turns, so I might teach him survival skills right off the bat.
Anyway, this is my $0.02 on the matter. Take it for what it's worth.
Tom / PM
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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If you insist on only going down and turning, then you never get out of that comfort zone... There is a whole hill to explore and those people who can't traverse to it are probably, no, difinitaley short-changing themselves. Still, no problem who needs more ants cutting up the lines... Hey, also, tell them it dangerous and full of avi's and we are cracking it..
Sorry, bad taste jibe there.. but the jist is is they can't traverse they will never get there..in any sense..
Personally, I've never cared what is taught, as long as you get there in the end..
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| spyderjon wrote: |
DB& GrahamN, that's known as braquage or pivot slips.
It's the first thing I do at the start of my first run each day as a great way of getting centred & for getting the feel of the snow. It's also the first thing I do when demo'ing different skis as it gives me a lot of feedback about how the skis handle. |
It's also a useful exercise to get you thinking about completing short radius turns, rather than doing a series of little dinks while gradually picking up too much speed.
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Rusty Guy, It's not a question of you taking your students wherever - they have a 2 hour lesson and then get to practise for the rest of the day. You tell them to practise what they learnt in the lesson on the same slope/s. They have "friends" who can ski a bit, who say "come with us - we've found a lovely easy run, it's much more fun up on the mountain", which turns out to be a blue (here) on their second day .. If they can traverse they can probably get down without needing to take their skis off (highly discouraged). Does this not happen chez vous? Happens every bl**dy week here!!!
However, you haven't answered my questions about how you teach edge control etc. I do actually want to know. We do it on a traverse. You teach the student to keep their weight on their downhill ski, to edge the ski and to flatten it. Edge it a lot and they turn up the hill (slowing down - most like that a lot). Also using the edge to stop in this way. Less edge and you go safely across the slope, flat ski and the ski slides a bit down hill. I do this normally on day 2 before turning. They learn how to adjust their line when encountering lumps and bumps (we have them even on the nursery slopes - ours are the gold course underneath!) by using their edges. They learn how to keep their weight on the downhill ski while their ankles and knees are pointing uphill. They learn to use the ski and the edges of the ski to do the work right at the beginning, and they learn that they can keep their feet parallel and still slow down. I don't teach any rotation of the foot for turning - the ski turns you, you don't turn the ski. This also means that the students are skiing parallel at some point right from the beginning - I wonder if lack of traverse is one of the reasons you guys seem so worried about the "stuck" snowplough?
Physicsman, I would consider garlands a traverse exercise & sideslipping too - the skis are across the hill, (in traverse if you want to be pedantic!)
richmond, I would think so, certainly in every european resort I've ever been to. 
All interesting questions and points of view.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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OH GOOD GRIEF! This is incredibly anal ... and look from where I'm talking from ... these are obviously basic skills that should be part of everyone's Early Learning™ experience, then practiced (possibly preferably under instruction) as we aspire and progress to more challenging terrain ... but 3 pages of competitive zit squeezing about it is getting silly.
I can't imagine what a nervous newbie skier would think on reading all this.[/i]
edit 'cos fingers and brain are in different timezones
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Sat 8-04-06 15:09; edited 1 time in total
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I've found it all quite interesting!
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DavidS, It's interesting but is it instructive? Especially to those that aren't at the expertise level of many of the contributors.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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As a punter and (a skier who is more enthusiastic than skilful  ), I guess I've been interested to read about different approaches to tuition. I don't think I've ever been taught to traverse - didn't even really think it was something you needed to learn, but maybe easiski would show me differently. Side slipping is something quite different - too much edge is one reason I'm a pretty indifferent bumps skier, and it's also a great survival technique.
I'm with rusty guy on the 'not skiing in straight lines' approach - and on traversing as very bad news when used in the wrong places (avoiding a turn, especially in bumps). That said surely 'over-terraining' is a useful tool in tuition. I skied with an instructor I really rate who combines teaching new technique in easy terrain, while using harder terrain to stress existing technique to the point where it begins to break down. That makes a lot of sense to me.
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I was just out walking and you guessed it "Shock Horror!!!", nobody (not even an American instructor) ever gave me a walking lesson. My technique fell apart, just couldn't get one foot in front of the other. Good job I had my mobile phone with me, was able to phone the Mrs and she came out and picked me up in the wheel-barrow. I've booked myself in for a walking lesson on Tuesday, would of done it Monday but it clashed with my breathing lesson.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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snowbunny, that problem has passed now.
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I was taught how to traverse very early. A couple of days later, when everyone was pretty comfortable at it, the instructor had us traversing under the top of a chairlift, across the top of a steep run to a flatter section. When we got there, he said "congratulations, you've just negotiated your first black run". No one had been fazed, because we were all secure on our edges, and from that point we knew we had a technique that might one day get us out of trouble. (In retrospect, it was a pretty gentle slope for a black - no danger of sliding forever, into rocks, over cliffs, etc.)
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You know it makes sense.
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Rust Guy I may spend a fair bit of time on the dry slope, but if you knew anything about me you would realise that it is purely in an attempt to improve basic technique and ability for when hitting the genuine stuff in real mountains. Sorry about the cheap Colorado shot - I have to say I was not over-impressed by the appearance of your mountains, and thought Vail's back bowls grossly overrrated, but liked Blue Sky a lot, and the tree skiing at the far end of Keystone. Clearly I missed the best bit though by not coming to Winter Park . One last shot to try expand your seemingly restricted horizons. My first week of useful lessons (2nd week on skis), 13 years ago, the instructor took us up the Grands Montets in Chamonix, I looked out over the Argentiere glacier and to the glistening slopes rising up to imposing peaks the other side and knew that this was what skiing was all about (even though at the time I had no idea that those slopes were actually skiable)...not the manicured motorways behind me. And then we went on what seemed like an interminable traverse onto a slope that oscillated between (what seemed then like) horrendous moguls and knee deep powder, dominated by the huge seracs at the end of the glacier. Of course I made a complete hash of it (but did get one good turn in, at which the instructor got far more excited than did I), and had completely fallen head-over-heels in love with the whole caboodle. It's only now I'm starting to get the ability to really get out there - but it was that initial jump into the deep end (which I couldn't have got to if I couldn't have traversed and sideslipped) that really enthused me.
| Physicsman wrote: |
| I would note, however, that the fraction of one's "real skiing" time spent in traverses seems to drop monotonically with ability above the level of intermediate. For example, these days, when I need to switch from one side of a run to the other (ie, the example you gave), I now find it MUCH more fun to make a very large radius swooping turn to shift lanes, whereas 20 years ago, I would have traversed over in a straight line, and then started turning again (ie, made a Z-lane change, not a curvy one). Keeping the curves always going is a much more active, fun, graceful way to ski. |
Agreed that taking the curvy line is more fun/graceful, provided the terrain allows you to make those turns. Just as a couter-example, there was a report easiski made near the beginning of the season where the conditions of one run allowed nothing but traverse/kick-turn/traverse - and I think we can all agree that she's neither a novice nor wedded to old-school skiing . As for the proportion of time spent in traversing dropping with increasing ability, I would agree if you restrict yourself to the pistes/groomers. If you hit the back-country though it changes dramatically. Those of us trying to lift your (plural) sights from simply cruising the blues are predominantly off-piste/back-country skiers. Last year I went on my first genuine back-country trip (6 days away from the lifts - quite staggering...literally) and I would reckon the proportions were 80% climbing, 15% traversing and 5% downhill.....and that downhill was wonderful. BTW - that did also show me that my traversing was not quite what it should have been (legs a bit too stiff and weight distribution not quite right)!
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Rusty Guy, I was not castigating you, on the contrary I asked several serious questions about how you teach certain aspects and you haven't replied. Physicsman had a different perspective, and you said 4 experienced PSIA full certs more or less couldn't remember last teaching traversing. (ergo - not only 1).
Ok, you teach foot rotation in early turning, so then, for example, when your students start learning to edge the skis or use the skis to do the work, don't they have a problem with having to "unlearn". Lots of instructors over here go with rotation as well, and BTW lots are now thinking about the inside ski as well - this is the "fulcrum" thing that a friend of mine brought back from California I suppose. I tried it, it worked, showed it to several french instructors ....... I find it very useful for peeps who can't get the weight off the inside ski! At what point do you start to teach edging? (average person).
You haven't answered my question about the "sweet spot/point d'equilibre" or whatever you want to call it. If you don't do traverse balancing exercises how do you achieve this? Almost everyone in LDA's doing them now. (mix of brits,french and italians + the odd dutch,belgian etc)
I also asked if you don't have the problem of peeps going off onto more difficult slopes before you think they're ready - no reply to that either. This is really commonplace here. Peeps like to get going and skiing round the mountain - going somewhere, and sometimes we cannot impress on them sufficiently that this is a BAD idea.
DavidS, I skied with an instructor I really rate who combines teaching new technique in easy terrain, while using harder terrain to stress existing technique to the point where it begins to break down. That makes a lot of sense to me. I wouldn't go quite as far as this, but it's pretty much what I do (without the breakdown - hopefully). It's not a competition between skiing in straight lines and skiing in turns - don't you ever traverse? I bet you do, more often than you think. If you have any pause in between turns, that's a traverse, if you go across the slope it's a traverse .....
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Poster: A snowHead
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easiski When I said I hadn't thought you needed to learn to traverse, I meant that it just seemed to be something that one picked up without any particular effort.
I'm not sure I really understand what you mean by non-beginners who couldn't traverse. These were intermediates who could, say, ski a red run reasonably well - but were able to go in a straightish line across a slope? Or they could traverse, but their technique broke down on a very steep, very icey slope?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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DavidS, I mean that they were unable to edge their skis and therefore unable to hold the line either they or I wanted across even a quite gentle slope. I find that many people do not naturally edge their skis, and unless shown how to do it just skid around in more or less the right direction. However, many of these people are also nervous, so tend to turn away from the hill (or turn their bodies up the hill) to some degree or another and thus lose any teeny bit of edge they might have. The steeper the hill the more this is likely to happen and therefore the more important it is that they learn how to hold their line (especially if it's a steeper slope, or there's a drop or a cliff or whatever below them). All of these people who've been to me this winter have not, of course, started with me, and have had some or a lot of instruction where this inability to hold the ski on an edge was not noticed. Therefore they'd become more and more fearful etc..
Of course when venturing onto the sort of slopes in the pix by Arno, and the stuff Graham N is talking about, lack of ability to hold your edge could have fatal consequences if the snow was hard at the time. You sometimes have to traverse hard or even icy slopes to get to the powder bowl you're looking for. 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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OK so i get high points for being evasive. i feel like a politician on the nightly news being told how many questions i dodged.
if you say pretty please maybe i'll answer the question.......me lady
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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I thought the shock and horror was not that they hadn't been taught explicitally during basic lessons, but that no one had noticed they couldn't do it and set about showing them how (be that with explicit traverse lessons, or simple edge related exercises).
Are you saying you wouldn't notice if a student couldn't traverse Rusty? Or that even if you didn't you wouldn't fix it cause it's not important?
aj xx
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| DavidS wrote: |
easiski When I said I hadn't thought you needed to learn to traverse, I meant that it just seemed to be something that one picked up without any particular effort.
I'm not sure I really understand what you mean by non-beginners who couldn't traverse. These were intermediates who could, say, ski a red run reasonably well - but were able to go in a straightish line across a slope? Or they could traverse, but their technique broke down on a very steep, very icey slope? |
i had a group of upper level intermediates in a bumps/steeps/powder lesson today that i regaled with the gist of this thread.
i queried the group with, "so who wants to go work on perfecting their traverse.....just in case there's an eatery on the other side of the........piste?"
boy i got a quick response.
they were collectively........piste off 
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| easiski wrote: |
| Of course when venturing onto the sort of slopes in the pix by Arno, and the stuff Graham N is talking about, lack of ability to hold your edge could have fatal consequences if the snow was hard at the time. You sometimes have to traverse hard or even icy slopes to get to the powder bowl you're looking for. |
Exactly. The first intimation I had that my traverse wasn't up to snuff was about 3 years ago on an off-piste course in Flaine. Conditions that week were just about perfect, we'd all been skiing pretty well, and the instructor took the opportunity to take us on a rarely skied run in the Gers bowl, under the large pylons on the opposite slope to the one normally skied, i.e. on the Flaine side (for anyone familiar with that area). The tricky bit was the entry, a 20-30m traverse across a 50 degree slope above some exposed rocks and a bit of a cliff, until you got to the point where it eased off a bit. Before we started the instructor gave us instructions on how to ski it, and what to do if we felt it going wrong (stay even more on your lower ski, soft leg, STAY STANDING DIRECTLY OVER YOUR SKIS, and ride the slide until the slope eases off or the edge re-engages). The snow was about 5-10cm of grippy stuff over a very hard base. Along with the rest of the group I (unwisely it turned out) declind the offer of a rope. Half way across my lower ski slipped away and despite the instructions we'd just received, reflexes kicked in and I did exactly the wrong stuff, i.e. my legs stiffened, I stood on the non-sliding (uphill) ski and put a hand out to steady myself against the slope beside me, so of course ended up on my hip in a slide. Fortunately I'm not bad at self-arrest, managed to check what was below me and pretty much stop myself, and the instructor (who had gone down first) jumped across to catch me anyway, so I only had about a 20-30m slide - maybe half the way to the rocks.
Anyway, after that the run is much less severe (never really getting above 40 degrees, and mostly around 20-30) and we had a fantastic run down the rest of it - got to do my first couloir jumps (well more a gentle gulley than a real couloir), powder turns around the tree-line, and a great lunch at the bottom!
It could have gone so much more wrong (and I may never have had the opportunity to find  s)!
That story actually provokes the question - how good are you all at recovering from a situation where it is going wrong? We can all get told what to do in certain circumstances, and I think I'm not bad at taking instructions on board, but in that split second when it's all going pear-shaped how do you suppress natural reflexes (which are frequently, as in the above, completely the wrong thing to do), and give yourself time to engage brain and do the right thing. Of course the best thing is to instill the correct reflexes, through repeated practice, but that requires you to actually get yourself out of control first - not something we are often encouraged to do. I know they have been known to throw themselves down a slope and practice self-arrests on Snoworks courses (although we didn't in my group this year), frequently receiving much criticism for that, but it seems a good idea to me (provided you choose the right slope of course). sticking sideslips in the middle of traverses are of course good edge control exercises, but are notmally controlled things and don't give you the "oh poo-poo" feel of a genuine error. Maybe having a go at deliberately screwing up a traverse every now and again (of course in much less exposed conditions than above) would be a good idea.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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GrahamN,
And some of those places they will not even let you ski, because the exposure may be fatal so the only option is to traverse. That really sharpens the mind and tightens your s******.... !!!
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The idea that traversing is a Euro only necessity is nonsense. In many N American resorts I have skied in you absolutely have to be able to hit quite specific traverses to get to the goods. In my experience also the best way to improve your traversing is to snowboard - by comparison its so difficult to stay on a narrow traverse that when you're back on skis its a piece of cake.
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FAQ
Still alive today though. 
By using the full width we can incorporate that other underrated skill of hedge skiing 