 Poster: A snowHead
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Ray Zorro, exactly. "We" all had to learn at one time or another, and most of us still are learning, and sometimes I don't have as much confidence on a run for whatever reason, at other times I see others in a similar situation.
I also go back to the phrase I have used many times before: the best skier is the one with the biggest smile. If someone is enjoying themselves, and keeping to the skiers responsibility code, then I am happy to share the hill with them.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Kramer wrote: |
| If the reason that lessons aren't given for the whole day is because they are tiring, should people who are learning to ski be skiing outside those times if they're likely to be tired? |
Mental tiredness and physical tiredness are not the same thing. I find that most 1-1 students are beginning to lack focus after 1.5 hours (OK my lessons are intensive). Normally beginners need a break and can then happily ski again later. The biggest problem I find for beginners (who IMO are first weekers only) is their helpful friends who take them to runs that are beyond their abiltiy and frighten them. If they all skied where their instructor told them to and practised what they were told, they'd improve a lot faster!
I like the idea of more colours - a mauve or purple would be very good, and a nursery slope designation (separate from green) would be good too. Sorry Ise don't agree with you at all!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Ray Zorro, well said. I wrote a posting along the same lines but then decided against posting it. Ski resorts are there for anyone willing and able to pay to use them, and if people aren't very good skiers or choose to limit their skiing by not having lessons (daft in my view, but there you go), that's their business. Lift companies, instructors, bars, restaurants and hotels are happy enough to take their money, so they should give them a bit of respect (which I daresay they do).
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Still don't see what the difference is with the current set-up? We already have nursery, or beginner slopes in a lot of resorts, at village level - free too. They're described as such in the literature, detailed on the websites.
I thought people were asking for greens through the domains, away from the resort villages - which in a lot of cases wouldn't be possible because of the topography. Or it would involve return to the resort by lift. There's a run like that right on top of the Tignes glacier in fact, at 3500 - access by cablecar.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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easiski, you should go and visit Rusty Guy some time - Winter Park has a great set-up for beginner instruction, in my opinion. (The Canyons in Utah has a very good set up too, with certain slopes you are not allowed to enter unless accompanied by an instructor)
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| Ray Zorro wrote: |
| Quote: |
ise,
We could do with rather less people who either fall into the "I do blacks after a weeks skiing" or 3 or 4 week skiers who can't tackle a blue run with any confidence.
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I think that should be an "I" not a "We" beginning that sentence, as it certainly doesn't include me. I have respect for those that are still struggling to do a blue with any confidence after 3 weeks. If they are enjoying themselves and sticking at it then good for them. If they aren't doing any harm to themselves or others what's the problem? |
Because it's more pleasant and safer to ski in an environment where those around you are competent and because space on the mountains is a scarce resource, the more "inclusive" it all is the less pleasant and safe it becomes. And because sanitising the mountain obviously diminishes it as it diminishes everything else in life.
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ise, how about raising the price of lift tickets, which might reduce the numbers of people, and teaching those who are there about skier responsibility?
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| PG wrote: |
I thought people were asking for greens through the domains, away from the resort villages - which in a lot of cases wouldn't be possible because of the topography. |
I think that's the scary thing, I see this as a trend where the resort becomes concerned the topography is limiting their ratio of a certain type of run and uses some bulldozers and dynamite to remedy it. This already happens to an extent in some places of course and pretty much never happens round here which leads to some rather "idiosyncratic" runs locally 
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ise, shouldn't runs be idiosyncratic? I can think of a few that have been well ruined around the PDS by application of a bulldozer...
Maybe the colours could rotate? I'm a big fan of purple and orange. Would take the peculiar fascination out of skiing "trophy" blacks if that particular colour that week indicated "beginner" slopes.
Would require people to engage brain too. Ah, well there goes that idea...
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| ise wrote: |
| Because it's more pleasant and safer to ski in an environment where those around you are competent and because space on the mountains is a scarce resource, the more "inclusive" it all is the less pleasant and safe it becomes. |
Oh come on ise! That sounds horribly selfish to me - "I learned to ski, but you're not allowed to because it impinges on my enjoyment". How do people become competent if they're not allowed on the mountain because they're not competent enough not to annoy the competent skiers? In fact your post just supports easiski's desire for more grading colours. If the particularly broad blue grading were split, then the progression for lower intermediates would be clearer and keep them away from the competent skiers - who should be competent enough to keep out of the way of the less competent anyway.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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eng_ch, but they ARE allowed on the mountain. Nursery/beginner slopes are there for that purpose. When they've actually learned how to ski, then they can head off wherever they like. Ski runs are there for skiers, not non-skiers.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| David Murdoch wrote: |
| ise, shouldn't runs be idiosyncratic? I can think of a few that have been well ruined around the PDS by application of a bulldozer.... |
That was my point, both that idiosyncratic is good and in fact PdS being a good example where the bulldozer and the mass market requirement for covering distance at the right color won.
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PG,
| ise wrote: |
| We could do with rather less ... 3 or 4 week skiers who can't tackle a blue run with any confidence |
When a blue is the easiest run there is in Switzerland, I'm sorry I read that as NIMBY. How do you learn to do new pistes - or new grades of pistes - without actually doing them? Don't the experienced people here keep saying the best way to improve and build confidence is to get the miles under your belt? And to push your comfort zone? Everyone has to start somewhere and you can't stay on the magic carpet for ever. And how do you get those miles under your belt if other skiers are saying they don't want you there because you're not confident? Catch 22
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You know it makes sense.
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eng_ch, practice on the slopes that are provided for the purpose of teaching beginners, and take lessons. The miles come later, when you've actually got a grip on the basics. Once those basics are properly acquired, it's a rare blue that would cause a skier any problems.
In Les Arcs for example, there are a variety of runs in most villages targeting beginners. I'm not talking 20m long moving carpet-accessed virtually flat patches of snow, but proper runs of a very low gradient.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| eng_ch wrote: |
| ise wrote: |
| Because it's more pleasant and safer to ski in an environment where those around you are competent and because space on the mountains is a scarce resource, the more "inclusive" it all is the less pleasant and safe it becomes. |
Oh come on ise! That sounds horribly selfish to me - "I learned to ski, but you're not allowed to because it impinges on my enjoyment". |
Beginners and people learning to ski don't impinge on my enjoyment. The picture that slope users are composed of expert skiers and those learning is attractive and untrue In fact there's people tearing around under the illusion they're self taught naturals and those who take an attitude of being happy snow poughing down a green for 20 years.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Quote: |
| Beginners and people learning to ski don't impinge on my enjoyment. |
What about yeti?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| PG wrote: |
| Once those basics are properly acquired, it's a rare blue that would cause a skier any problems |
PG, have to take issue with you there - depends on the conditions, doesn't it? The bottom of Tovets in C 1550, for example, causes all sorts of people all sorts of problems when it's icy and imo it's only people who can normally manage much steeper stuff that can ski it with any aplomb in such conditions. I just don't think you can make a blanket statement like that
ise, don't get me wrong, I'm a great fan of lessons. In our (to date) 150+ ish days of skiing we've taken 18 hours of group lessons and probably 75+ hours of 1-to-2 privates. And I certainly agree that there are a lot of people out there who could really benefit from some formal instruction. But everyone learns at a different pace and has different fear levels and that 3 or 4 week skier you see being nervous on a blue may have had plenty of lessons but not have overcome their individual fear barrier or had that lightbulb moment yet.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| ise wrote: |
Because it's more pleasant and safer to ski in an environment where those around you are competent and because space on the mountains is a scarce resource, the more "inclusive" it all is the less pleasant and safe it becomes. And because sanitising the mountain obviously diminishes it as it diminishes everything else in life. |
Providing they are causing no harm to themselves or others, then surely no classification of ability of skier has more right to use a slope than another or exclude another from it - especially the easy blue slopes. It may impinge on someone's enjoyment to share the slope with someone of vastly different ability, but that works both ways. Everyone pays the same for the lift pass  .
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| eng_ch wrote: |
ise, don't get me wrong, I'm a great fan of lessons. In our (to date) 150+ ish days of skiing we've taken 18 hours of group lessons and probably 75+ hours of 1-to-2 privates. And I certainly agree that there are a lot of people out there who could really benefit from some formal instruction. But everyone learns at a different pace and has different fear levels and that 3 or 4 week skier you see being nervous on a blue may have had plenty of lessons but not have overcome their individual fear barrier or had that lightbulb moment yet. |
I'm not familar with your end of the country, but don't you have the impression that people here who ski either take it seriously (like you having lessons and presuambly that's because you're looking for continual improvement and think the more you put then the more you get out) or they don't bother and go sledging?
I've no impression of people plugging away at it continually searching for an easy slope that avoids dificulty or blading or something.
That said I was reading some guy on EnglishForums.ch saying the "bad weather" of the last 4 weeks had stopped him going skiing, this seemed to mean it was snowing, there again he was English
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Quote: |
| Everyone pays the same for the lift pass |
Not if you are an absolute beginner - you can ski for free in a fair few places that I can think of.
| eng_ch wrote: |
| PG wrote: |
| Once those basics are properly acquired, it's a rare blue that would cause a skier any problems |
PG, have to take issue with you there - depends on the conditions, doesn't it? The bottom of Tovets in C 1550, for example, causes all sorts of people all sorts of problems when it's icy and imo it's only people who can normally manage much steeper stuff that can ski it with any aplomb in such conditions. I just don't think you can make a blanket statement like that |
I'm sure I can!  I'm saying that if you take a sufficient number of lessons to ensure that you have acquired the basics to a level where your instructor considers you have reached the standard to move on, few blues will pose any problems. It's just the usual syndrome of people trying to ski before they can snowplough, in most cases.
And as ise has hinted, a faire proportion of them are a danger to others on the slopes because they don't feel the need to take lessons.
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| ise wrote: |
I'm not familar with your end of the country, but don't you have the impression that people here who ski either take it seriously or they don't bother and go sledging?...
I've no impression of people plugging away at it continually searching for an easy slope that avoids dificulty or blading or something. |
I guess it depends on the size of the resort. If it's somewhere that isn't on the UK tour operators' map then yes, it's usually populated by people who could ski before they could walk (spit!), or expats who are skiing reasonably frequently - and that's the sort of place we tend to go at weekends. Our other main experience is Courchevel/3V - which is a totally different experience.
| Quote: |
| (like you having lessons and presuambly that's because you're looking for continual improvement and think the more you put then the more you get out) |
Thank you - yes. But it's also for confidence/self-belief and even for safety, I don't want to be the person to cause a huge search and rescue operation through my over-ambition or incompetence, that may endanger others. And because I tend to be very black & white about things (I either don't know enough or I've already reached the level I'm satisfied with and know all I need to know to (e.g. in my music)) but I set that bar quite high for myself - since I'm the only person I ever compete with. For instance, my competence in music allows me to play everything I want to play and I would gain no more benefit from putting in the 6+ hours a day for the next year or 2 that it would take to go and get a job as a pro muso. And I've not yet got to that stage yet with skiing so I need ongoing lessons, no?  Hell, even pro musicians and dancers still take masterclasses
| Quote: |
| That said I was reading some guy on EnglishForums.ch saying the "bad weather" of the last 4 weeks had stopped him going skiing, this seemed to mean it was snowing, there again he was English |
Wuss! Although I draw the line at a visibility level where you can't see the next piste marker - I don't know anywhere well enough yet for it to be particularly safe to be out in those conditions, I could get very badly lost. But apart from that I'll ski in practically anything within reason
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I'm finding some of these threads in the Piste section quite depressing reading at the moment. Snowheads is beginning to feel very elitist. It seems to me many advanced skiers can't remember what it was like getting to that stage. Speaking as a cautious not very good intermediate who tends to seize up when confronted with a piste I perceive to be steep, I'm beginning to feel as if there is no place for me out on the piste cos I may struggle with some slopes or not being skiing them correctly. I even had the audacity to ask here a while back for suggestions for easy blacks in Saalbach, not for bragging rights but to ensure I didn't end up on the most difficult black in the resort. I'm trying to make myself get used to steeper gradients. I would like to be able to ski most of the mountain without some areas becoming no-go areas. I know my failings and I intend to try and go on a Snoworks course or similar next year. I would just ask some others to have a little more tolerance towards those like me who aren't fully confident and able on all slopes.
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| Quote: |
Cathy Coins,
Snowheads is beginning to feel very elitist.
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I thought exactly the same as you earlier today  .
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Yes - lift passes can be varied - we have "bas des pistes" which is much cheaper, and we have 4 free lifts in the village. The village skiing is quite extensive in our case, so quite competent green/blue skiers can get a lot out of a "bas des pistes" pass. The trouble is the TOs sell 6 day passes for the whole area to everyone. If you're a beginner you certainly don't need one at all for the first day, and quite possibly not for the second either!
The point is not, people learning to ski, but people who think they can ski, flying everywhere out of control (twisting their skis from one side to the other and side slipping violenty) - these are the people impinging on everyone's enjoyment ( and possibly injuring someone). These are often the people who descend (I don't say ski) blacks and then spend all night boasting about it in the pub. This is not the same thing as being chuffed to have done your first black - these people do it daily, and everyone below them on the mountain is in danger. They often took 1 week's group lessons and have never done anything since - after all - they learned to ski!!!
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Cathy Coins, personally I read no elitism or intolerance into the above. I do however feel annoyed when skiers choose to ski on slopes that are beyond them and cause accidents. On a mogul run in Villaroger the other week I was taken out from behind by just such a skier. My kids have been hit on several occasions. There is no excuse - it's just pure thoughtlessness.
All that's been suggested is that skiers keep to runs that are well within their ability to ski, before moving on. That they take lessons. That beginners learn on the beginner (free) slopes that are provided for that purpose.
Tolerance is a two-way street. I'll be b****red if I'm going to smile tolerantly at the next person that refuses to tolerate my wish - that my kids and I be allowed to ski safely on the mountain and not be taken out from behind by some out of control idiot.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Quote: |
| I'm saying that if you take a sufficient number of lessons to ensure that you have acquired the basics to a level where your instructor considers you have reached the standard to move on, few blues will pose any problems. |
PG, my point here is these skills don't just osmose, you have to practice, and by definition when you start practising you aren't necessarily going to be particularly good or confident - that's the point of practising!
| Quote: |
| It's just the usual syndrome of people trying to ski before they can snowplough, in most cases |
I don't dispute there are plenty of people like this
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| easiski wrote: |
| The point is not, people learning to ski, but people who think they can ski, flying everywhere out of control (twisting their skis from one side to the other and side slipping violenty) - these are the people impinging on everyone's enjoyment ( and possibly injuring someone). These are often the people who descend (I don't say ski) blacks and then spend all night boasting about it in the pub. This is not the same thing as being chuffed to have done your first black - these people do it daily, and everyone below them on the mountain is in danger. They often took 1 week's group lessons and have never done anything since - after all - they learned to ski!!! |
easiski, agreed. The problem is over-confidence and complacency - not under-confidence imo.
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Cathy Coins, (and Ray Zorro) I think I can see what you mean, I hope it's a passing phase. I also hope I'm not one of the culprits  . If so, please put that down to the 2 dimensionality of forums vs. face to face conversation. Without apologising for anyone...
This has been (and there are a couple of threads along the same lines running) interesting & seems to me that there are a few points, whether or not well expressed:
* general dissatisfaction with the ways in which pistes are graded
* an opinion, well meant but possibly not well delivered, that many people wrongly seek to improve by skiing "harder" slopes - in some/many cases before they have the skill to allow them to learn in that particular context. The results vary from the mildly (if unfairly) comical to the fatal. I use "comical" advisedly. We all laugh with each other do we not?
For the rare few, this plan might work. IMHO most people mostly need to stretch their skills on slopes where they can learn the skill rather than having to cope simply descending the slope. (Your search for a black run to acclimatise gently to steeper slopes is eminently sensible. Another deficiency of run gradings being that it's hard to identify what you're looking for without local knowledge).
And I'm not sure I can work out what else is going on, as I'm getting confused!
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You know it makes sense.
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| PG wrote: |
Cathy Coins, personally I read no elitism or intolerance into the above ...
All that's been suggested is that skiers keep to runs that are well within their ability to ski, before moving on. That they take lessons. That beginners learn on the beginner (free) slopes that are provided for that purpose.
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To be honest, that wasn't all that was suggested, ise appeared to suggest that anyone that was still unconfident on blue slopes after 3-4 weeks no longer had any right to use the mountain - that we could do with rather less of them. It had nothing to do with them moving onto other more difficult slopes - and nothing to do with danger either. The context of the issue was on the question of inclusivity and the suggestion that he appeared to be making was that these people should be excluded from the mountain for being incompetent.
This is what struck me as elitism.
That may not be what ise actually meant, but he then appeared to reinforce it by talking about his enjoyment being affected by their presence on the mountain .
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I think its a bit much to insist people have constant lessons until they reach a required consistent level. From my own recent relearning experience (in telemark) I can confidently say I switch off after 1 hour of tuition and what I really need to do is practice and consolidate before I can attempt the next thing. What I would have loved to find for that was a gentle slope without many others on it (including ski classes). Ideally a practice slope in addition to a lesson slope. Do many ski resorts have this distinction?
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Ray Zorro, I don't know - I think that if someone is still not making progress, and continues to refuse to take lessons, then they shouldn't be on those parts of the mountain where a) they are going to carry on just reinforcing their lack of confidence and b) will represent a hazard to other mountain users. Is suggesting they go back to the nursery slopes, take lessons, or give up, elitist? I don't see it that way.
Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Tue 28-03-06 19:43; edited 1 time in total
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I can see where you're coming from, Cathy Coins.
Skiers who ski beyond their ability are under fire in these forums.
And skiers who try to stay within their ability but are too inexperienced to read the mountains properly and end up out of their ability... they're criticised too.
Next some poor intermediate (me!) dares to ask whether some assistance might be forthcoming to help assess what he can safely ski... and he's told that his ideas will lead to resorts seeking to avoid liability by closing runs.
The consensus that I've picked up is that the only good intermediate is the one who's writing cheques to the ski school.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Ray Zorro wrote: |
| Quote: |
Cathy Coins,
Snowheads is beginning to feel very elitist.
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I thought exactly the same as you earlier today . |
Me too, although I'm not sure that 'elitist' is the word I'd have used (I have no problem with elitism, in fact I rather like it). 'Arrogant' was the one I though of.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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PG, but what about the people who do take lessons but still don't progress fast? We know people who don't progress fast because they're held back by fear despite taking lots of lessons. Should they not be on the mountain either?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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PG, I'm not going to argue with what you say there, but that wasn't how I read ise's comment. "Not making progress", "refusal to take lessons", "reinforcing their lack of confidence" and "being a hazard" were neither mentioned or implied in my reading. It was more that they were never likely to make the grade and should give up and try something else .
Probably best that we move on...
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| Quote: |
| The consensus that I've picked up is that the only good intermediate is the one who's writing cheques to the ski school. |
Close (I hold no shares). The only good skier, whatever his level of skill, is one that has cottoned on to the prime rule - respect for others on the slope. And that includes not being an out-of-control WMD on skis. It's not always easy to judge how close one is to one's limits while learning, hence the suggestion that lessons will help to that end.
eng_ch No reason that I can think of for skiers not to be on those parts of the mountain that they are able to ski in reasonable comfort. Even if they make slow progress, lessons and snow time will help them get there in the end.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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IncogSkiSno, DM'll have his fluorescent green ski pants soon
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FAQ
The piste concerned has now been promoted to a black. 
Had it been a black when I was there, I would not have skied it. 