![](templates/subSilver/images/full_size.gif) Poster: A snowHead
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@DB, a mate had to have his RR Sport towed twice, once out of a ditch and once when the computer literally gave up on M+S in heavy snow.
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![](templates/subSilver/images/full_size.gif) Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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The problem with a lot of these premium SUVs is that they have ridiculously wide tires, which are not at all what you want in wet cold conditions. Or off road generally. And the Porsche Cayenne is terrible in snow/ice, I know as I have lost count of the times I have towed my neighbors son in law up the slight incline from their house to the main road. When we lived in Germany my company car was an Audi RS4 (lucky that it came with a fuel card too!), and the garage would put narrower wheels on for the winter tyres.
It seems that huge rims are a bit of a British obsession with many UK spec cars having wider tires than the standard spec elsewhere. I always specify the narrowest tyres possible for our chosen 7 seater (XC90), which means Volvo using wheels from a much lower spec model. They are not that happy to do it but my local dealer has become used to winning the argument for me (but then we have bought 4 new cars from him so worth his while).
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![](templates/subSilver/images/full_size.gif) Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@zikomo,
Yes with some cars if you don‘t go for narrower winter tyres then you don‘t have enough room for chains. This is why on some cars all-season tyres are not the best option. (Typically sports cars).
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Quote: |
If you have a 4WD /AWD with summer tyres but can't fit chains to the vehicle then in really bad snow conditions where chains are required you are stuffed (technical term)
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And you will be similarly stuffed in a car with nice winter tyres if you are lucky enough to hit a snowmageddon episode on your way to your ski holiday and the gendarmes tell you that you are not allowed up the hill without chains. I wouldn't recommend trying to explain, however good your French, that you know from reading Snowheads that you never need chains if you have winter tyres.
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![](templates/subSilver/images/full_size.gif) Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@DB, no, that’s not the reason they changed the tires. It is because it improves the traction and reduces aquaplaning risk in cold/wet conditions.
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zikomo wrote: |
@DB, no, that’s not the reason they changed the tires. It is because it improves the traction and reduces aquaplaning risk in cold/wet conditions. |
I don‘t agree. To meet winter regulations in Austria you don‘t necessarily need to go for narrower winter tyres (I do for the reasons you mentioned). If however the standard tyre dimension doesn’t allow enough clearance space for snow chains then you may need to go for narrower tyres to meet regulations when snowchains are required.
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DB wrote: |
zikomo wrote: |
@DB, no, that’s not the reason they changed the tires. It is because it improves the traction and reduces aquaplaning risk in cold/wet conditions. |
I don‘t agree. To meet winter regulations in Austria you don‘t necessarily need to go for narrower winter tyres (I do for the reasons you mentioned). If however the standard tyre dimension doesn’t allow enough clearance space for snow chains then you may need to go for narrower tyres to meet regulations when snowchains are required. |
Not sure why you are so insistent on this. The wheels are changed to narrower to improve traction in cold and wet conditions. It is nothing to do with snow chains at all. The RS4 cannot take regular chains regardless of width of tyre. It needs the more rigid type that don’t go round the back of the tyre. Germany also has no requirement for chains to be carried, especially where we lived, no one carried them (except when going to the alps), so again this has nothing at all to do with snow chains.
I am pointing all this out as many here could improve the performance of their SUV or high power car in snow/wet/cold by switching to narrower wheels with winter tires. That is the whole point. If your car cannot take regular chains putting narrower wheels on will not change that.
Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Fri 13-01-23 13:21; edited 1 time in total
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pam w wrote: |
Quote: |
If you have a 4WD /AWD with summer tyres but can't fit chains to the vehicle then in really bad snow conditions where chains are required you are stuffed (technical term)
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And you will be similarly stuffed in a car with nice winter tyres if you are lucky enough to hit a snowmageddon episode on your way to your ski holiday and the gendarmes tell you that you are not allowed up the hill without chains. I wouldn't recommend trying to explain, however good your French, that you know from reading Snowheads that you never need chains if you have winter tyres. |
Hit snowemagedons 3 times - once in AT and twice in FR. All three times waved trough, no chains
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Well, lucky old you. It's not always like that.
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DB wrote: |
Many people seem to think if they have 4WD /AWD with summer or M&S tyres then they don't need chains. If you have a 4WD /AWD with summer tyres but can't fit chains to the vehicle then in really bad snow conditions where chains are required you are stuffed (technical term). |
That’s an interesting point. AFAIU, it’s not, in Austria, illegal to have summer tyres on one’s car between the Winter Season times (1st Nov - 15th April), notwithstanding that the law states “winter tyres should be used in “wintry” conditions - i.e. if there is snow, slush or ice”. Happy to be corrected but, if one has an accident, whether own fault or not, as a result of driving with Summer tyres in snow, slush or ice, then the insurance is invalid. Ergo, no insurance is illegal.
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![](templates/subSilver/images/full_size.gif) snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@Cacciatore, that’s how it works in Germany. It is not a legal requirement to have winter trees. But in an accident during the winter if you don’t, you will be deemed at fault. So insurance companies require them. So everyone puts them on for the winter. We should do the same here in the UK imv. The improvement in stopping distance at low temperatures is astonishing.
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![](templates/subSilver/images/full_size.gif) And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@zikomo, agreed!
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Oh god...I seemed to have stirred up quite the hornets nest!
We are still two weeks out. I think I'll leave it to much closer and keep an eye on the forecast. The tyres are large 255/55/R20 so not everywhere I can see stock chains capable of fitting them.
When I have done it before, I stopped and bought chains on route at a supermarket on the way to La Tania but was only in a rented 2WD people carrier. We didn't need them on the main road, but the road up to our chalet was slippy. I barely got us up to it without fitting chains (blue light trained and have driven a fire engine through snow, so reasonably experienced) but needed them to get out of our drive and down 100m back to the main road...at which point I removed them and "donated them" to the nearest recycling bin.
Normally, I'd do that this time but just a bit concerned that due to the tyre size may struggle to find them stocked in a super market/garage on route. Which means either paying much more money in the UK or going down the socks route.....
There is a place fairly close to me in Kent that does rent them out, so may just do that.
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![](templates/subSilver/images/full_size.gif) You know it makes sense.
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zikomo wrote: |
Not sure why you are so insistent on this. |
So that people on here don‘t end up with a car and wheel setup that can‘t take chains.
zikomo wrote: |
The wheels are changed to narrower to improve traction in cold and wet conditions. It is nothing to do with snow chains at all. The RS4 cannot take regular chains regardless of width of tyre. It needs the more rigid type that don’t go round the back of the tyre. Germany also has no requirement for chains to be carried, especially where we lived, no one carried them (except when going to the alps), so again this has nothing at all to do with snow chains. |
Legally without chains or a certified alternative the police have the power to stop you continuing your journey (unless the vehicle has an exemption sticker). The wheels are changed as almost 100% of drivers here Austria prefer not to run Summer tyres in winter as it‘s too risky and there are insurance implications.
zikomo wrote: |
I am pointing all this out as many here could improve the performance of their SUV or high power car in snow/wet/cold by switching to narrower wheels with winter tires. That is the whole point. If your car cannot take regular chains putting narrower wheels on will not change that. |
You can‘t put narrower tyres on every car.
You are making one point which I agreed with but please don’t be a twit and try to make out that is the answer to the universe.
Last edited by You know it makes sense. on Fri 13-01-23 14:33; edited 1 time in total
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![](templates/subSilver/images/full_size.gif) Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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You may not need chains. But, by God, you'll wish you had them when you do need them.
So, when you are spending thousands on a ski holiday, the additional cost of a set of chains is peanuts...
..and if you are a worrier it'll give you piece of mind (or something else to sorry about!).
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![](templates/subSilver/images/full_size.gif) Poster: A snowHead
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It's a bit like having a life jacket on a boat. I've been sailing for years and never needed one.....
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![](templates/subSilver/images/full_size.gif) Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@DB, I give up. My posts are crystal clear but you seem incapable of understanding what is being said. You were insistent that using narrower wheels was to allow snow chains to be fitted. That is not true. Narrower wheels will not allow snow chains to be fitted to cars that are not compatible as it is the clearance between the back of the wheel and other components that is the limiting factor. Those types of cars need a different type of snow traction device that does not have any part on the back side of the wheel.
No one is arguing that snow chains are not sometimes required to pass certain roads at certain times. They are. You are repeating exactly what I said, people change to winter tires because they work better, are safer, normally required by insurance and there is a risk of being held at fault if you don’t have them. So again, don’t understand why you see an argument.
The fact is that SUVs in particular with fat tires do not perform well in the wet and cold, let alone snow. Fitting narrower wheels will improve this.
And I won’t respond further no point discussing with someone that has reverted to insult, at that point you defeated yourself frankly.
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![](templates/subSilver/images/full_size.gif) Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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And we are yet to touch on EV's that have a motor attached to each wheel with instant high torque output. Neighbour claims he got zapped while removing chains from his Tesla 3 after the loose chain was became magnetically attached to the motor.
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pam w wrote: |
It's a bit like having a life jacket on a boat. I've been sailing for years and never needed one..... |
Best analogy yet! Says it all.
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![](templates/subSilver/images/full_size.gif) Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@zikomo,
Your statement that people only go for narrower winter tyres for improved winter performance is incorrect. I know someone who had to go to narrower tyres so they had the clearance between the tyre and wheel arch for chains. ….. and it wasn‘t a sports car.
Yes certain cars (normally sports cars) have issues with clearance behind the wheel but this isn‘t typical of most cars. You may also find that the snowchain alternative (e.g. Spikes Spider) can also only be fitted to such high performance cars when a narrower winter Tyre is fitted because the clearence between the outside of the wheel and the wheel arch is too small.
https://peerlesschain.com/limited-clearance-issues
Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Fri 13-01-23 15:36; edited 2 times in total
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zikomo wrote: |
pam w wrote: |
It's a bit like having a life jacket on a boat. I've been sailing for years and never needed one..... |
Best analogy yet! Says it all. |
Trouble is in other posts she says she has needed them!
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zikomo wrote: |
pam w wrote: |
It's a bit like having a life jacket on a boat. I've been sailing for years and never needed one..... |
Best analogy yet! Says it all. |
I'll second that!
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nevis1003 wrote: |
zikomo wrote: |
pam w wrote: |
It's a bit like having a life jacket on a boat. I've been sailing for years and never needed one..... |
Best analogy yet! Says it all. |
Trouble is in other posts she says she has needed them! |
What? A life jacket to put on your tyres?
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![](templates/subSilver/images/full_size.gif) You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Ozboy wrote: |
Neighbour claims he got zapped while removing chains from his Tesla 3 after the loose chain was became magnetically attached to the motor. |
In a Tesla model 3 there are two motors, one front for front wheels, one rearward for back wheels. They are located at the centre line of the vehicle, not the wheels.
The 'zap' your neighbour received was most likely static discharge which can happen on any vehicle, EV or ICE.
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Sfellows wrote: |
zikomo wrote: |
pam w wrote: |
It's a bit like having a life jacket on a boat. I've been sailing for years and never needed one..... |
Best analogy yet! Says it all. |
I'll second that! |
Ha, I heard of cases people putting life jackets the wrong way and drowning
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![](templates/subSilver/images/full_size.gif) snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Fridge03 wrote: |
Oh god...I seemed to have stirred up quite the hornets nest!
We are still two weeks out. I think I'll leave it to much closer and keep an eye on the forecast. The tyres are large 255/55/R20 so not everywhere I can see stock chains capable of fitting them.
When I have done it before, I stopped and bought chains on route at a supermarket on the way to La Tania but was only in a rented 2WD people carrier. We didn't need them on the main road, but the road up to our chalet was slippy. I barely got us up to it without fitting chains (blue light trained and have driven a fire engine through snow, so reasonably experienced) but needed them to get out of our drive and down 100m back to the main road...at which point I removed them and "donated them" to the nearest recycling bin.
Normally, I'd do that this time but just a bit concerned that due to the tyre size may struggle to find them stocked in a super market/garage on route. Which means either paying much more money in the UK or going down the socks route.....
There is a place fairly close to me in Kent that does rent them out, so may just do that. |
We like a good "debate" about traction etc on here, all the thinking keeps us warm. Advantageous with current energy prices.
I feel you've a reasonable chance of not getting stuck with current arrangements, that's going upwards. Less optimistic in going down if gradient and surface friction are serious. Its by far the more sobering experience it you can't prevent the vehicle from sliding.
We travel in 4WD vehicles too and still carry chains but as yet unused. One with full winter tyres and an older land rover that has M+S marked type, both without issue up or down.
It's a difficult projection, but I'd be sucking my teeth over that one (your current equipment) and how to best proceed.
Which tyres are fitted now, as there can be a big difference in capabilities from one to another.
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![](templates/subSilver/images/full_size.gif) And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@nevis1003, you really are not paying attention, are you? Yes, I have needed chains. Occasionally made my own judgement to put them on and on two occasions required by the police to put them on before proceeding. But I have never needed a life jacket, just like most off piste skiers have never needed their avi balloons. Waste of time and money, I suppose you'd say?
I don't understand why you are so determined to imply that I am lying when I say that the police sometimes stop people driving up to resorts without chains. Usually on a busy transfer day. At 9 pm on a quiet snowy Wednesday they don't care. You're welcome to get stuck on your own - only if you snarl up the whole road. That's why they stop people taking the back routes up to the Tarentaise, too.
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@DB, ffs give it up. Your link wasted my time as no examples or information related to fitting narrower wheels. I know this is important to you but it really is not to me. Because I actually know what I am talking about.
Back on topic - and this is the important point. Fat tyres are not great in snow/ice/cold and wet. If thinking about winter tyres it is worth considering getting a set of narrower rims and well, it will improve traction and reduce aquaplane risk. Many manufacturers recommend this but the information is often not provided to the UK market (as not that many use winter tyres).
And the fact is that many Europeans do use narrower wheels with winter tyres because of the traction benefits. It is nothing at all to do with snowchains, because the vast majority (I would say 99.9%) of winter tyre users In Europe have never used a snow chain.
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![](templates/subSilver/images/full_size.gif) You know it makes sense.
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Narrower tyres are better in the snow regardless of type. Perhaps that's why those old French farmers' Fiat Pandas are so good.
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![](templates/subSilver/images/full_size.gif) Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@pam w, or 2CVs ... never needed snow tyres on them!!
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![](templates/subSilver/images/full_size.gif) Poster: A snowHead
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RE the narrower wheels question, there are two reasons why car manufacturers' recommended winter wheels and tyres are often smaller than their standard, ex-factory setups. The first is that narrower tyres are less prone to aquaplaning, all other things being equal. So in winter, when it's much more likely you'll encounter heavy rain and standing water, you'll be better able to handle these conditions. The second is that, as mentioned, in low-profile configurations, the ex-factory setup leaves little or no room for conventional snow chains to rotate, especially if they're a bit loose.
One thing worth bearing in mind is that often, extra width on a tyre and its wheel isn't added symmetrically: it's added more to the inside (body side) of the wheel arch than the outside, so that the tyre doesn't scrape the wheel arch when at full compression, or poke out too far. So when you make the tyre and wheel ½" to 1" narrower, you'll often get most of that 'released' so to speak from the inside of the wheel. This allows the chains to rotate safely and not foul the suspension, brake pipes, and if FWD, steering mechanism.
Unfortunately, over the last 20 years, low-profile tyres and their accompanying wheels have become the norm even outside of performance cars. A lot of not-particularly-sporty mainstream models and particularly SUVs have them in order to give the cachet of sportiness. And to be fair, low profile tyres are easier to turn but there's a price to pay - they're more prone to aquaplaning and give a less comfortable ride. PLus they may make it impossible to safely fit chains. You don't get something for nothing. My Jeep Grand Cherokee came with low-profile tyres and when I asked if I could get chains for them was told that "The view is that UK drivers don't need them." The reality is that some marketing suit decided they'd look better and sell more cars, even if they have their drawbacks.
So always check your Owners Manual for what setup the manufacturer certifies as suitable for chains. And don't just base this on the tyre size: you can often buy chains to fit a tyre but that's irrelevant to whether the vehicle's design means they can be used safely. The manufacturer's table will also specify the wheel size as well. So, for example, my ex-factory 8Jx18 wheels (8" wide x 18" diameter) and their 245/35-18 summer tyres (245mm wide / 35% profile - 18" diameter) are absolutely not certified by the manufacturer to take conventional chains. If I want to do that I have to fit 7.5Jx17 (7½" wide x 17" diameter) wheels and they carry 225/45-17 winter tyres (225mm wide / 45% profile - 17" diameter). Which is what they have on now while the summer set have a rest in the garage.
Again as mentioned, there is a class of more expensive chains that fit on the front of the tyre, usually attached to wheel bolt extensions. These have no chain components on the inside of the tyre, so they obviate any clearance problems. They're also much quicker to fit. And as icing on the cake, they're often are adjustable to fit a wider range of wheel/tyre sizes than conventional chains. So the odds are higher that they'll fit your next vehicle. But they are pricey - usually starting at around the £300 mark and more for bigger wheels.
In an ideal world, where there was no cost or convenience constraints, you would drive in the Alps on a set of winter tyres. If the manufacturer required it, these might also need to be on a separate set of narrower winter wheels as well. You'd carry chains for when the snow conditions require it - not necessarily a Snowmaggendon but perhaps deep slush in your resort or freeze/thaw/freeze ice on the exit to your car park or accommodation. Or for when the police simply demand you fit them, even if you think you'd make it on your winter tyres. Everything else is a compromise - an equation that balances risk, probability, consequences and costs.
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Fri 13-01-23 17:12; edited 2 times in total
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![](templates/subSilver/images/full_size.gif) Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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zikomo wrote: |
@DB, ffs give it up. Your link wasted my time as no examples or information related to fitting narrower wheels. I know this is important to you but it really is not to me. Because I actually know what I am talking about.
Back on topic - and this is the important point. Fat tyres are not great in snow/ice/cold and wet. If thinking about winter tyres it is worth considering getting a set of narrower rims and well, it will improve traction and reduce aquaplane risk. Many manufacturers recommend this but the information is often not provided to the UK market (as not that many use winter tyres).
And the fact is that many Europeans do use narrower wheels with winter tyres because of the traction benefits. It is nothing at all to do with snowchains, because the vast majority (I would say 99.9%) of winter tyre users In Europe have never used a snow chain. |
I feel both views have merit here. Narrowed tyres raise ground pressure applied to benefit traction, that's well known.
Clearance is a problem on many cars with design favouring fully dry road performance over adaptability it seems.
Clearance particularly just above tyre and inside wall at that point too is because ideal suspension gemoetry would place the wheel's steering pivot through the tyre downwards through center (laterally) of wheel bearings, to arrive at road surface very slightly outboard of centreline of contact patch.
The inner ends of suspension being compromised by packaging requirements they try to fold the pivot points around the wheel to optimise gemoetry (this is good design but most useful at very high loading from aggressive cornering) but leave precious little space to fit any chains etc.
Obviously a compromise, but could be argued that the really aggressive cornering performance may take second place when you're stuck in the winter
It is what it is, especially if customer trends keep buying cars with huge wheels fitted.
Narrower tyres will assist both with clearance and traction in msny respects.
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![](templates/subSilver/images/full_size.gif) Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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pam w wrote: |
Narrower tyres are better in the snow regardless of type. Perhaps that's why those old French farmers' Fiat Pandas are so good. |
Great cars!
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![](templates/subSilver/images/full_size.gif) You need to Login to know who's really who.
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LaForet wrote: |
One thing worth bearing in mind is that often, extra width on a tyre and its wheel isn't added symmetrically: it's added more to the inside (body side) of the wheel arch than the outside, so that the tyre doesn't scrape the wheel arch when at full compression, or poke out too far. So when you make the tyre and wheel ½" to 1" narrower, you'll often get most of that 'released' so to speak from the inside of the wheel. This allows the chains to rotate safely and not foul the suspension, brake pipes, and if FWD, steering mechanism.
So always check your Owners Manual for what setup the manufacturer certifies as suitable for chains. And don't just base this on the tyre size: you can often buy chains to fit a tyre but that's irrelevant to whether the vehicle's design means they can be used safely. The manufacturer's table will also specify the wheel size as well. So, for example, my ex-factory 8Jx18 wheels (8" wide x 18" diameter) and their 245/35-18 summer tyres (245mm wide / 35% profile - 18" diameter) are absolutely not certified by the manufacturer to take conventional chains. If I want to do that I have to fit 7.5Jx17 (7½" wide x 17" diameter) wheels and they carry 225/45-17 winter tyres (225mm wide / 45% profile - 17" diameter). Which is what they have on now while the summer set have a rest in the garage. |
This needs the "ET" specification to fully understand and fit wheels of the correct dimension.
The design has the tyre contact patch on the road specified to give the correct amount of tread to the left and right of the notional steering axis as it's projected there as functional part of it's geometry. Increasing one or the other will shift this away from design and bring uncorrected steering geometry onto the vehicle.
ET describes the offset from rim centre line in relation to the face of the wheel that fits to the car hub. Changing ET only will effectively move the wheel in or out. Changing rim/tyre width without knowing the impact will also do this
A different width rim may or may not need correction in ET to keep within bounds.
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![](templates/subSilver/images/full_size.gif) Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@zikomo,
You started this by disagreeing with me not the other way round.
You don‘t know what you are talking about. In Austria almost all cars have winter (or all season) tyres from Nov to April.
I‘ve been using winter tyres for around 23 years, doing thousands of km‘s on motorways, country roads and small backroads to ski touring locations here in Austria on days with good snow conditions = lots of snow.
I‘m not looking to argue with anyone or make them look stupid but you started it and you won‘t let go even when other experienced posters here also agree with me. You can either keep digging and making yourself look stupid and argumentative or give it up.
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@DB, ok. Whatever. I have been clear. The benefits of narrower wheels are better traction and less aquaplaning. I don’t at all see why you find it hard to understand that is what I am saying. Or why you would disagree with it. Or why you would conflate that with anything else. But you keep doing so. It’s weird.
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zikomo wrote: |
@DB, ok. Whatever. I have been clear. The benefits of narrower wheels are better traction and less aquaplaning. I don’t at all see why you find it hard to understand that is what I am saying. Or why you would disagree with it. Or why you would conflate that with anything else. But you keep doing so. It’s weird. |
Strawman argument.
I didn‘t disagree with any of the above. I just said it‘s not the only reason for going for narrower winter tyres and sometimes you have to go narrower to be able to fit snowchains on certain cars. Then you disagreed with me, which was weird as you seem to be the only person on here who believes the only reason for going to narrow winter tyres is for performance.
We essentially agree, there are many benefits to going for narrower winter tyres, inkl. performance, clearance and often lower cost.
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@DB, finally you get it.
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![](templates/subSilver/images/full_size.gif) You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@Cacciatore, they (freelancer 2) have really good 4WD transmission that works well for both drive and braking. Later they shifted away from this, to their detriment in many views.
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