Snow Chains/Socks if we have Winter Tyres

A snowHead

@DB, a mate had to have his RR Sport towed twice, once out of a ditch and once when the computer literally gave up on M+S in heavy snow.

A snowHead

The problem with a lot of these premium SUVs is that they have ridiculously wide tires, which are not at all what you want in wet cold conditions. Or off road generally. And the Porsche Cayenne is terrible in snow/ice, I know as I have lost count of the times I have towed my neighbors son in law up the slight incline from their house to the main road. When we lived in Germany my company car was an Audi RS4 (lucky that it came with a fuel card too!), and the garage would put narrower wheels on for the winter tyres.

It seems that huge rims are a bit of a British obsession with many UK spec cars having wider tires than the standard spec elsewhere. I always specify the narrowest tyres possible for our chosen 7 seater (XC90), which means Volvo using wheels from a much lower spec model. They are not that happy to do it but my local dealer has become used to winning the argument for me (but then we have bought 4 new cars from him so worth his while).

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@zikomo,

Yes with some cars if you don‘t go for narrower winter tyres then you don‘t have enough room for chains. This is why on some cars all-season tyres are not the best option. (Typically sports cars).

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@DB, no, that’s not the reason they changed the tires. It is because it improves the traction and reduces aquaplaning risk in cold/wet conditions.

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Well, lucky old you. It's not always like that.

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@Cacciatore, that’s how it works in Germany. It is not a legal requirement to have winter trees. But in an accident during the winter if you don’t, you will be deemed at fault. So insurance companies require them. So everyone puts them on for the winter. We should do the same here in the UK imv. The improvement in stopping distance at low temperatures is astonishing.

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@zikomo, agreed!

Oh god...I seemed to have stirred up quite the hornets nest!

We are still two weeks out. I think I'll leave it to much closer and keep an eye on the forecast. The tyres are large 255/55/R20 so not everywhere I can see stock chains capable of fitting them.
When I have done it before, I stopped and bought chains on route at a supermarket on the way to La Tania but was only in a rented 2WD people carrier. We didn't need them on the main road, but the road up to our chalet was slippy. I barely got us up to it without fitting chains (blue light trained and have driven a fire engine through snow, so reasonably experienced) but needed them to get out of our drive and down 100m back to the main road...at which point I removed them and "donated them" to the nearest recycling bin.

Normally, I'd do that this time but just a bit concerned that due to the tyre size may struggle to find them stocked in a super market/garage on route. Which means either paying much more money in the UK or going down the socks route.....
There is a place fairly close to me in Kent that does rent them out, so may just do that.

You know it makes sense.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

You may not need chains. But, by God, you'll wish you had them when you do need them.

So, when you are spending thousands on a ski holiday, the additional cost of a set of chains is peanuts...

..and if you are a worrier it'll give you piece of mind (or something else to sorry about!).

A snowHead

It's a bit like having a life jacket on a boat. I've been sailing for years and never needed one.....

A snowHead

@DB, I give up. My posts are crystal clear but you seem incapable of understanding what is being said. You were insistent that using narrower wheels was to allow snow chains to be fitted. That is not true. Narrower wheels will not allow snow chains to be fitted to cars that are not compatible as it is the clearance between the back of the wheel and other components that is the limiting factor. Those types of cars need a different type of snow traction device that does not have any part on the back side of the wheel.

No one is arguing that snow chains are not sometimes required to pass certain roads at certain times. They are. You are repeating exactly what I said, people change to winter tires because they work better, are safer, normally required by insurance and there is a risk of being held at fault if you don’t have them. So again, don’t understand why you see an argument.

The fact is that SUVs in particular with fat tires do not perform well in the wet and cold, let alone snow. Fitting narrower wheels will improve this.

And I won’t respond further no point discussing with someone that has reverted to insult, at that point you defeated yourself frankly.

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And we are yet to touch on EV's that have a motor attached to each wheel with instant high torque output. Neighbour claims he got zapped while removing chains from his Tesla 3 after the loose chain was became magnetically attached to the motor.

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@zikomo,

Your statement that people only go for narrower winter tyres for improved winter performance is incorrect. I know someone who had to go to narrower tyres so they had the clearance between the tyre and wheel arch for chains. ….. and it wasn‘t a sports car.

Yes certain cars (normally sports cars) have issues with clearance behind the wheel but this isn‘t typical of most cars. You may also find that the snowchain alternative (e.g. Spikes Spider) can also only be fitted to such high performance cars when a narrower winter Tyre is fitted because the clearence between the outside of the wheel and the wheel arch is too small.

https://peerlesschain.com/limited-clearance-issues

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@nevis1003, you really are not paying attention, are you? Yes, I have needed chains. Occasionally made my own judgement to put them on and on two occasions required by the police to put them on before proceeding. But I have never needed a life jacket, just like most off piste skiers have never needed their avi balloons. Waste of time and money, I suppose you'd say?

I don't understand why you are so determined to imply that I am lying when I say that the police sometimes stop people driving up to resorts without chains. Usually on a busy transfer day. At 9 pm on a quiet snowy Wednesday they don't care. You're welcome to get stuck on your own - only if you snarl up the whole road. That's why they stop people taking the back routes up to the Tarentaise, too.

@DB, ffs give it up. Your link wasted my time as no examples or information related to fitting narrower wheels. I know this is important to you but it really is not to me. Because I actually know what I am talking about.

Back on topic - and this is the important point. Fat tyres are not great in snow/ice/cold and wet. If thinking about winter tyres it is worth considering getting a set of narrower rims and well, it will improve traction and reduce aquaplane risk. Many manufacturers recommend this but the information is often not provided to the UK market (as not that many use winter tyres).

And the fact is that many Europeans do use narrower wheels with winter tyres because of the traction benefits. It is nothing at all to do with snowchains, because the vast majority (I would say 99.9%) of winter tyre users In Europe have never used a snow chain.

You know it makes sense.

Narrower tyres are better in the snow regardless of type. Perhaps that's why those old French farmers' Fiat Pandas are so good.

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@pam w, or 2CVs ... never needed snow tyres on them!!

A snowHead

RE the narrower wheels question, there are two reasons why car manufacturers' recommended winter wheels and tyres are often smaller than their standard, ex-factory setups. The first is that narrower tyres are less prone to aquaplaning, all other things being equal. So in winter, when it's much more likely you'll encounter heavy rain and standing water, you'll be better able to handle these conditions. The second is that, as mentioned, in low-profile configurations, the ex-factory setup leaves little or no room for conventional snow chains to rotate, especially if they're a bit loose.

One thing worth bearing in mind is that often, extra width on a tyre and its wheel isn't added symmetrically: it's added more to the inside (body side) of the wheel arch than the outside, so that the tyre doesn't scrape the wheel arch when at full compression, or poke out too far. So when you make the tyre and wheel ½" to 1" narrower, you'll often get most of that 'released' so to speak from the inside of the wheel. This allows the chains to rotate safely and not foul the suspension, brake pipes, and if FWD, steering mechanism.

Unfortunately, over the last 20 years, low-profile tyres and their accompanying wheels have become the norm even outside of performance cars. A lot of not-particularly-sporty mainstream models and particularly SUVs have them in order to give the cachet of sportiness. And to be fair, low profile tyres are easier to turn but there's a price to pay - they're more prone to aquaplaning and give a less comfortable ride. PLus they may make it impossible to safely fit chains. You don't get something for nothing. My Jeep Grand Cherokee came with low-profile tyres and when I asked if I could get chains for them was told that "The view is that UK drivers don't need them." The reality is that some marketing suit decided they'd look better and sell more cars, even if they have their drawbacks.

So always check your Owners Manual for what setup the manufacturer certifies as suitable for chains. And don't just base this on the tyre size: you can often buy chains to fit a tyre but that's irrelevant to whether the vehicle's design means they can be used safely. The manufacturer's table will also specify the wheel size as well. So, for example, my ex-factory 8Jx18 wheels (8" wide x 18" diameter) and their 245/35-18 summer tyres (245mm wide / 35% profile - 18" diameter) are absolutely not certified by the manufacturer to take conventional chains. If I want to do that I have to fit 7.5Jx17 (7½" wide x 17" diameter) wheels and they carry 225/45-17 winter tyres (225mm wide / 45% profile - 17" diameter). Which is what they have on now while the summer set have a rest in the garage.

Again as mentioned, there is a class of more expensive chains that fit on the front of the tyre, usually attached to wheel bolt extensions. These have no chain components on the inside of the tyre, so they obviate any clearance problems. They're also much quicker to fit. And as icing on the cake, they're often are adjustable to fit a wider range of wheel/tyre sizes than conventional chains. So the odds are higher that they'll fit your next vehicle. But they are pricey - usually starting at around the £300 mark and more for bigger wheels.

In an ideal world, where there was no cost or convenience constraints, you would drive in the Alps on a set of winter tyres. If the manufacturer required it, these might also need to be on a separate set of narrower winter wheels as well. You'd carry chains for when the snow conditions require it - not necessarily a Snowmaggendon but perhaps deep slush in your resort or freeze/thaw/freeze ice on the exit to your car park or accommodation. Or for when the police simply demand you fit them, even if you think you'd make it on your winter tyres. Everything else is a compromise - an equation that balances risk, probability, consequences and costs.

A snowHead

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@zikomo,

You started this by disagreeing with me not the other way round.

You don‘t know what you are talking about. In Austria almost all cars have winter (or all season) tyres from Nov to April.

I‘ve been using winter tyres for around 23 years, doing thousands of km‘s on motorways, country roads and small backroads to ski touring locations here in Austria on days with good snow conditions = lots of snow.

I‘m not looking to argue with anyone or make them look stupid but you started it and you won‘t let go even when other experienced posters here also agree with me. You can either keep digging and making yourself look stupid and argumentative or give it up.

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@DB, ok. Whatever. I have been clear. The benefits of narrower wheels are better traction and less aquaplaning. I don’t at all see why you find it hard to understand that is what I am saying. Or why you would disagree with it. Or why you would conflate that with anything else. But you keep doing so. It’s weird.

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@DB, finally you get it.

When we moved to Austria, bringing our slightly aging but extremely capable Freelander II, we did so with standard ‘summer’ tyres….and then re-shoe’d with Winter tyres come 1st November. The thought being that we’d refit the originals the following Spring…which we didn’t rolling eyes

This is our 7th Winter and we’re on our third set of Winter treads - and we don’t do much more than 7,000km a year….those Winter tyres don’t last so long Crying or Very sad

Anyway, the point! The Freelander, in all its superb capability may well, at 15 years (but only 60,000 miles) be moved on….and a newish 4x4 will hopefully replace it soon. But we will be seeking, in the purchase, a winter pack to include a narrower set of rims with winter tyres. No question. Which is fairly common in Austria….or at least the more hilly areas Laughing

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@Cacciatore, they (freelancer 2) have really good 4WD transmission that works well for both drive and braking. Later they shifted away from this, to their detriment in many views.

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Snow Chains/Socks if we have Winter Tyres

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