 Poster: A snowHead
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@pandora, that's really interesting that you haven't heard about it. in fairness, 8 years is a while, they may have been proven wrong. I'll PM you details in the morning. It may be that it's long haul only or something.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I must admit that I got a bit pee'd off by the fact that my local pool after a couple of nights blocked off for club and triathlon club training and ad hoc school galas decided to add a women only session on another night.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| boisdevie wrote: |
| Arno wrote: |
My heart goes out to all the men who are oppressed by this terrible policy  |
I wonder if you'd find it so comic if Chill Factore had a no gay people session or a no black people session. Descrimination on the basis of sex is just as bad as that on the basis of ethnicity or sexual orientation. |
I can give you some advice which should help you through life.
Stop being a dick.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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^ Sexist!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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There was some research I read suggesting everyone works better in mixed sex teams.
In terms of parking they've also researched this: apperently men are generally faster but are happy with a worse job and women although generally slower are better centred in the space and less likely to be over the lines.
Anecdotally an old BC trucker was telling me about working with women through the decades. He'd never known one crash. Despite working with quite a few.
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I always happily acknowledged that my OH was better than I was at driving backwards. But I was far better driving forwards..... 
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@under a new name, when I started out in aviation over 20 years ago there were fewer than 100 female pilots in my airline, which is the biggest employer of female pilots in the UK. When you see a female pilot giving an interview in the press, I usually know her. If you include all the airlines in the UK we still only number in the few hundreds, we can certainly all fit in one conference hall or lecture theatre. We are a tighknit community in a minority position and frequently discuss things that apply to women aviation. Current hot topic is the state of maternity pay in airlines vs the average UK employer, but we discuss everything from the gender pay gap to wearing head coverings in less female-friendly Middle Eastern countries.
I am fairly sure that if one of the world’s biggest airline groups had declared that they didn’t want to women in the cockpit because of poor CRM I’d have heard. CRM is a taught skill as much as landing (and parking!) the aircraft is. What you are essentially saying is that women are poor enough at learning this taught skill that they are not good enough to have 2 of them in the cockpit at the same time. This (if true) exposes a massive hole in airline safety as each and every pilot is supposed to be able to and is trained to fly an aircraft on their own in the event something happens to the other one. If some pilots (ie the women) are as a group inadequate at learning the skills required to fly an airliner then this is massive news and why haven’t I heard of it before?
Or maybe it’s just idle mysoginistic speculation that 2 wimminz can’t be trusted together in an environment clearly meant for men? Thus effectively demonstrating that we still have a long way to go and that sometimes a place where a women can get on with stuff eg skiing, without the sexist crap broadcast by a certain type of man (note I don’t include all men here) is necessary.
FWIW I don’t feel the need to place myself in a women-only group for anything. But plenty of women out there clearly do for whatever reason. Is it hurting men if a group of women have their own ski lessons?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@pandora, the complaint isn't about women only ski lessons but about the fact that men can't use the slopes during the women's session unless they are in a lesson. If an actual ski resort came up with such a rule then there would be outrage on here but no one really cares if they can't visit chill factor e on a weekday morning so there is no outrage. If the OP had wanted to visit during that slot and could not easily work around it then he would have a genuine complaint. It does sound like he is complaining for the sake of complaining though
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@rambotion, fair point
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Someone posted above that they used to do men only sessions but they weren't popular - can't see that there could be any complaints of sexism when they tried both, one worked, one didn't, so they ditched the one that didn't?
Agreed that if that was the only time you could do, and you weren't allowed, it would be annoying. But not sexist, which was the OP's gambit.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I'm really p**ssed off that they have assumed there are only 2 genders. Where are the sessions for those who identify as a kitchen appliance, such as myself? Disgraceful.
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| Fridge03 wrote: |
| I'm really p**ssed off that they have assumed there are only 2 genders. Where are the sessions for those who identify as a kitchen appliance, such as myself? Disgraceful. |
Anything in the fridge you can use to disguise your identity to pass off as one of the 2 sexes?
Maybe some meat & two veg? or a lovely pair of melons?
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You know it makes sense.
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When I lived in the UK I used to go to the women only swimming sessions. Reason being that I could use lane 2 (fast breast stroke, slow crawl). In a mixed session I would have been stuck in the slow lane.
To be honest it could have been called 'slower swim session' rather than 'women only'.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@queenie pretty please, that's my point exactly.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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The more I read snowheads the sadder I get about the number of women who are either put off skiing completely or never get to truly enjoy skiing (rather tolerate it for kids/partner) because their early lessons are so poor
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Gämsbock wrote: |
| The more I read snowheads the sadder I get about the number of women who are either put off skiing completely or never get to truly enjoy skiing (rather tolerate it for kids/partner) because their early lessons are so poor |
We get some women in that category who book our Improver Clinics at Hemel, and not infrequently this is their final throw of the dice before they quit skiing altogether. I always ask about their experience and it's often a mix of what seems like poor quality lessons where the instructors pay too little attention because that client wasn't making typical progress, plus being dragged around inappropriate terrain by their family, teaching them fear and survival skiing. It's not the biggest sample to draw conclusions from, but there must be a better way of doing things, and if women-only classes are a part of that I'm all for it.
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+1000
In my limited teaching experience, I’ve often had beginner groups where the women were more skilled but the men were more reckless. The women often had the perception that they weren’t “good enough/fast enough” in comparison. And the men often had the perception that they were brilliant compared to the women. This is not a happy mix in a group - especially when some of them are married to each other! Once someone has lost confidence in herself it’s very hard to get that back.
I can easily believe that some women will have a much better experience learning to ski in an environment where they know that the group dynamic isn’t going to be set by over-confident men.
If there weren’t ever going to be over-confident men dominating a group, then you wouldn’t need women-only groups.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@rob@rar, my impression is that many men are often quite happy once they figure out how to point their skis down the mountain, accelerate with each turn, and skid to stop. Most women, on the other hand, want to feel they are in control of their speed with every turn. But in typical mixed group lessons in resort they get pushed onto steeper slopes before they have learned that skill, start accelarating and feeling out of control, and then they get scared. I do think this happens in group lessons as well as by family - there's that group peer pressure on the instructor to get off the nursery slopes, do a red/black run etc.
As you say, anything that helps to mitigate this has got to be a good thing.
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Exactly.
Obvious to anyone with a modicum of interest in developing sports across the spectrum and whose life-view extends outside Mail Online btl comments.
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| Gämsbock wrote: |
| @rob@rar, my impression is that many men are often quite happy once they figure out how to point their skis down the mountain, accelerate with each turn, and skid to stop. Most women, on the other hand, want to feel they are in control of their speed with every turn. But in typical mixed group lessons in resort they get pushed onto steeper slopes before they have learned that skill, start accelarating and feeling out of control, and then they get scared. I do think this happens in group lessons as well as by family - there's that group peer pressure on the instructor to get off the nursery slopes, do a red/black run etc. |
I'm slightly reluctant to generalise, my personal experience of teaching new skiers isn't extensive and the skiers I mostly teach are a self-selecting lot, both genders I think in broadly equal proportion, who are interested in skills moreso than typical recreational skiers. But I do see plenty of skiers who develop survival skills for steep (for them) terrain, and some people are confident to do that, other people lose all confidence. I think the ski industry needs to cater for both types, it's what Scott and I try to do with Inside Out Skiing, and if commercially there is a demand for women-only courses I can only agree with
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| ... anything that helps to mitigate this has got to be a good thing. |
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what if you self identify as a woman?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I can’t say I’ve read every page of this post; but here’s my own female perspective on it.
1. I completely get why there are women only sessions as some women are more comfortable in an environment which doesn’t feature macho competitiveness. It’s not “casual sexism”.
2. Nobody is saying that women are required to book into female only sessions, and nobody is stopping women learning to ski in mixed sessions.
3. I was myself a nervous and anxious beginner and early intermediate once, and so in theory that sort of lesson should have appealed to me had it been available, though I’m not a very girly girl. I used to get very nervous in lessons.
4. However, I was lucky enough to get to be a far better skier after a season in the 3V. I have spent the last dozen years skiing with Mr P plus his boys, now 23 and 26, one of whom is now an instructor and skis the FWT qualifiers. I had to learn to keep up and be a bit more ‘ballsy’ from the age of 40 onwards. In truth, skiing with the boys has made me do more, take more challenging lessons, challenge myself to be much more adventurous and turned me into a better skier as a result. We all ski together quite happily (but not with Mr P Jnr when he’s chucking himself off cliffs etc!) I’m still slightly more cautious than them, but in a good way I think.
So, for me, women’s only ski tuition is a bit patronising. But I must stress, it’s patronising to Me. I think women should be more prepared to “man up”  , they will find they can do it.
I’m sure I’m not the only woman who gets quite cross when blokes, who think they are good skiers cos they skied a black run, talk to me about skiing on the basis that I am probably happiest on a blue run, skiing on short flowery skis, or even worse, talk across me in a social situation about skiing on the basis that I don’t really no that much about it, and presume they must know more. How nice it is to prove them otherwise on the slopes...heheheheh.
However, far be it for me to be ‘offended’ on behalf of womankind as a whole re lessons.
I want more women to ski, and if this gets them going, great. Sorry if it keeps the chaps off the indoor slopes for an hour or two.
As an aside, I think one or two SHs are, or were, members of another ski forum called theskidiva.com-based in the US with a vast majority of members being Yanks and Canadians. It’s a forum for female skiers. In the end I found the collective sisterhood overlaid by American earnestness pretty vomit inducing and left it. SHs are much more my style.
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I have no objection to Ladies Only sessions so long as they provide lady topless laptop dancing in the cafe whilst I have to wait for the session to finish.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I don't really have any issue with female only lessons. If anything I'd agree with the post saying it's a bit patronising for women.
I do think it is a little unfair there is a time the slopes are only accessible to women. I would say the same about chillfactors over 50 sessions. Also these 3 hour sessions are only £15 for 3 hours, compared to £19 per hour regular price. So yes, if you are a man under 50 you are losing out on potential time and cheaper skiing. If you are a woman over 50 you have a lot better deal.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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There was a time when I'd have probably been of the same opinion, but I've found it easier to just "live and let live".
Life's too short (it really is).
Book another day & enjoy your time there 
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Just claim to be a woman, who is going to challenge it and risk a bigger issue in our PC society? 
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I like the women only swimming sessions. I used to go swimming at lunch time and after having my breasts grabbed and my bum touched and various other incidental "man handling " problems in the mixed sessions I stopped going. These were mixed sessions 60% of the people swimming appeared to be female no female at these sessions managed what today would be classed as assault upon my person. But 2-3 of the males could manage to offend virtually every woman in the pool. These problems did not occur every time and a change of day of the week removed one pest. A second was barred from the venue, 1 guy managed to keep turning up. So I just stopped going...... sadly so did most of the other people as 7 months later all the lunch time sessions stopped due to lack of support.
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Poster: A snowHead
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@joneski, that is truly shocking!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@joneski, truly awful. I used to go swimming with a mate and his mates. One of them used it as an opportunity to perve at women underwater. I didn't believe it was a real thing until I heard him talking about what he did.
Very, very sad situation and person.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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I remember Men Only sessions in the 80s.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Well I thought it was nice of Philip Davies MP to post on Snowheads, but it doesn't look like he's coming back.
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@Ingemar_Skidmark,
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if the incidents had happened today the police would have been called but we are talking 18 yrs ago, and it was a hazard of swimming in a mixed session in a public swimming pool and there will be a lot of ladies out there who had similar problems.
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I have been oppressed by the Ladies Only sessions at CFe, but only because I'd taken the effort to take a day off and rock up at reception one morning, without looking to see if it would be open for blokes. What a waste. Had to clear out the garage instead.
Chill do run sessions for over 50s, sessions for kids, sessions for women, but they don't have sessions with less formal coaching than a 'lesson' which cater for 40 year old blokes. It's not about having a session specifically for 40 year old blokes, but more that there aren't any sessions at all.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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At my home slope (Norfolk) we have Ladies Club, with exclusive slope use. We used to have Men's Club, but it died due to lack of use, to be replaced by Masters, for over 21s, male and female. This group has a majority of men, but quite a few women who are happy with the bolder style compared to the careful and controlled style of the Ladies. This seems to keep everyone happy, and I am not aware of any complaint. We have to be aware that men and women do sometimes have different learning styles, and slopes must account for this.
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Female only classes aren’t a problem, but gender specific sessions are. If you can’t access a facilty at a specifc time because of your gender that clearly is sexism. I wonder if you would find such an approach anywhere else in Europe?
Classes for ‘nervous’ skiers of whatever gender are probably what are needed rather than the assumption that the clients for such classes must be female.
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FAQ
