 Poster: A snowHead
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@stanton, well. There you go. I'd never come across that (even back in the days of Tigerbuss in the 90s).
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Does anyone have any idea what the fate of seasonal workers on UK contracts will be after brexit happens? Working alongside the French it was obvious they were getting paid an awful lot more even after costs were taken out.
I'm planning on returning to the alps this winter and working on European contracts getting paid in euros and then setting aside enough money for NI contributions back in the uk.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Daleskier wrote: |
| Does anyone have any idea what the fate of seasonal workers on UK contracts will be after brexit happens?. |
That will cease you can be sure of that.
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| stanton wrote: |
| Daleskier wrote: |
| Does anyone have any idea what the fate of seasonal workers on UK contracts will be after brexit happens?. |
That will cease you can be sure of that. |
Any thoughts on what might replace it?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You will just get a sponsor in France. Just like working in every country that we're not in the EU with.
Some intelligent French guy will set up a 'hospitality management company'. The purpose of this company will be nothing whatsoever except to legitimise the paperwork of English chalet companies. He will take a 'management fee' which in it's own won't be very much money but across the 20 chalets that his company managers the staffing for, it'll be enough money to have a very comfortable season of not doing very much. He'll apply for the visas of the people working in the chalets. They'll officially work for his company, not the chalet. And he will provide the staff to the chalet. Officially.
Nothing will change about the experience. Nothing will change about the pay. Nothing will even change for the chalet staff. Just rather than signing an english contract with Whizzbang Chalet Company they'll sign a French contract with Jean Pierre Hospitality Management Services. The chalet operator will pay the management company a once-a-month management fee and the management company will pay the chalet staff.
This is how working abroad for British companies works in most parts of the world.
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@dp, except the local will have to abide by local employment law, min and max hours, min salary scales, etc. which will add costs.
Workers will not get benefits, just the wage that Jane Doe, waitress/cook/etc. gets.
Pre-1974 is too far back and too different to even use as a template.
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@dp, i can guarantee with a certain amount of certainty that will only be possible depending on the legal settlement for EU citizens in the UK..
The fate of all future legal employment rights UK workers (winter & summer) in the EU will br decided on this issue.
It will be nationality issue weather you work through some clever scheme or not
Working Visas are not going to be given out by the hundreds or thousands..EU worksrs will come first and there are plenty of first ckass Englush speaking citizens who can fill these jobs
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We're all doomed! I'd be surprised if we could even go to France or anywhere in Europe after brexit, even for a holiday. According to the troll anyway.
It'll be a seem less transition from pre to post brexit imo. I won't say for certain with certainty though. Because I don't actually know and can't time travel. Unlike some.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@under a new name, I don't see it being a problem really. French NMW is just short of EUR1500 per month. (I think it was agreed earlier chalet hosts get circa £150 a week which is approx £650/month which is, at current rates, circa EUR 725 per month.
I think all will happen is they will get their EUR1500 and then obviously that will be taxed at 20% as is standard for non-residents. So you're at 1200. They'll be charged a fee for their full board accommodation, let's say EUR400/mo, that makes it 800 left. EUR75/mo for a contribution on their lift pass. Pay of EUR725... there's your 1500 euros.
@stanton, I think you are talking rubbish. The EU (rightfully) say that racial discrimination in employment is illegal, therefore it would be illegal to give priority to the jobs to EU citizens against non-EU citizens. Just like it is right now. If a company in France currently wants to staff it's Chalet entirely from Indians, they don't get turned away in favour of Brits, do they? So please stop talking your usual racially motivated drivel. Brexit will not mean that the EU suddenly becomes a Nazi state and Britain becomes public enemy number 1. Nobody wants to hear your racist waffle so please go and be outraged on the comments section of the Daily Mail or something??
Last edited by You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net. on Mon 24-07-17 20:36; edited 1 time in total
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@Thesixquidman,
It will not be the same or as easy as it been as you know it...
I really do not understand why anyone would think everythinv will be thr same if the UK pulls out of the single market. You therefore pull out of all the rights or presumably skme surcharge/applications/viaa etc will have to be made.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@stanton, Nobody is expecting it to be the same. But likewise EU countries are not just going to break every rule in the book to go on a big revenge mission to screw us over. And even if they do it'll be in proper world matters not bloody chalet staff
So quit your noise!
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| dp wrote: |
| The EU (rightfully) say that racial discrimination in employment is illegal, therefore it would be illegal to give priority to the jobs to EU citizens against non-EU citizens. |
That is exactly the law as it stands, you have to show that no-one from the EU can fill the position before you offer it to none EU citizens. Stanton is exactly right. Post prexit no detached work contracts and work permits for chalet staff if the UK is no longer part of the free movement of labour pillar.
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@dp, Makes sense. Switzerland hasn't shut down its tourist industry just because of (effective) minimum wages.
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You know it makes sense.
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It is in the end a bit of a change for the wider holiday industry, for the poles etc who work up here in the Lakes, for me working in the alps in winter, for my friends working Greek island holidays etc etc etc. One thing I do know is that people are going to still go on holiday to Europe and British people will be required in part to help the operations there. I do hope those negotiators in Brussels manage to hammer out a deal that doesn't bug up too many people's winters.
My last season in Alpe d'huez the winter b4 last they reckoned 1/3 of their business was from the British, they would be very sad to loose us. To look on the bright side it might just push holiday companies to observe employment in a little positive manner for some of the lower members of the hierarchy.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@dp, its not discrimination because UK citizens will no longer belong to the legally employable/entitled group of Citizen menber states.
You will be categorised the same as Chinese,Russians;Indians whatever not entitled to work in EU unless a valid work visa is issued.
This will be extra cost to EU employers& they will probably have to justify..long process
I warned about this long before the Referndum last year.
Sorry to repeat bad news
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Poster: A snowHead
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..
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Tue 25-07-17 8:48; edited 1 time in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@davidof that is not true. You do not have to prove that a person from the EU cannot do it, you may only need to give a justification for a non-EU citizen to do it.
As far as I am concerned though ultimately there is no point discussing what might or might not happen post-Brexit with people talking like it's fact. Nothing about the whole saga is concrete in any way so it's a case of waiting and seeing.
But there is no law in the EU which states that a job must be offered to every remaining EU national before it can be offered to a foreigner.
@stanton it is discrimination. Telling somebody they can't work because of their nationality is discrimination. Look it up in a dictionary.
It doesn't have to be a long process. It doesn't need to be an excessive cost.
The only thing you have to apologise for is logging in mate. As soon as I see your name next to a post, my heart just sinks at the prospect that what I'm about to read will be total undiluted cockwaffle.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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European resorts are not going to lose British clientele because they no longer have British staff.
Once British workers in Europe lose the bonus of being cheaper for EU-based British companies (by virtue of being employable on UK contacts and all the savings that holds for the employer), then I guess we will have to be able to bring something else to the party if we want to work in Europe; let's face it, it's not going to be our language skills.
If you employ on local EU contracts, I cannot think of a single reason to employ British staff when there are EU nationals with very good English available who do not require an additional admin fee to "Jean Pierre Hospitality Management Services".
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This is not a racist or discrimination issue.
Try applying for a work visa for Australia or The US or even imagining a British based Holidtay Company trying to operate a business over there with imported Staff employed and taxed etc in the UK ..???
They would all be in Jail , deported and banned from re-entering for 5-10yrs+
I cannit believe the British arrogance that you all think nothing will change..
Bury your heads in the sand if you want to.
For sure black market work will still continue
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@Hand Wringer, have you been on a chalet holiday?
I think the relationship you have with your hosts is an important part of the experience and it is easier to have a good relationship with people from a similar background to you that you can relate to.
It's about more than just speaking English
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Simple solution: Attend a  Bash.
Nobody exploited, locals employed & damn good value-for-money.
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dp - Yes, I'm quite familiar with chalet holidays where the majority of the clientele are British, and with having chalet host couples of various nationalities.
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dp is certainly right about the need for familiar British folk. Places like France just don't have the
'Locals' to supply enough labour for a lot of resorts so their is hope. I do think Stanton has a point though!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Its all very nice and cozy & idylic to think just because your British that nothing will change and you will be freely allowed in your hundreds/thousands to just roam free in the EU & contunue on as if nothing politically has happened.
This I am sorry to say is a consequence of Brexit (If it ever happens)
As i mentioned earlier the fate of all British workers continuation rights within the EU will come down to the guarantees the the UK gives EU citizens in the UK . At the moment the initial offer is not satisfatory.
Secondly removing yourselves from the single market & what new proceedures righrs will be adopted to allow UK citizens to legally work within the EU.
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@stanton,
| Quote: |
| For sure black market work will still continue |
Other than the usual French *protectionism, given that it has such a black economy, why would you expect a reasonably savvy discreet operator of any other nationality not to continue to get away withh it?
*they're our nice French black marketeers don't even think of taking their business
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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If Brexit means Brits can't work in chalets (and I have no idea if it will), I imagine there will be enough candidates who have, or can get, Irish passports.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| HossDoc wrote: |
Simple solution: Attend a Bash.
Nobody exploited, locals employed & damn good value-for-money. |
Yup.
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Whilst there may be some issues once Brexit occurs, it's in the interests of the entire ski industry (UK and European) to find a way for things to continue pretty much as they are.
As several of you rightly point out, staffing chalets isn't simply about who'll do it cheapest. British clients on the whole prefer chalets staffed by Brits as this adds to the overall experience.
Force wholesale changes on how chalets work and everyone loses in the long term. Thousands of potential skiers might never be introduced to the sport and the concept of the skiing holiday. Chalets with the likes of Crystal, Ski Beat, Inghams, Skiworld are a great entry point to skiing for people who, as they grow older and wealthier, may become more discerning and change their tastes to other types of accomodation. Start putting barriers in their way and who knows what they try instead of skiing but if they're lost then it's to the detriment of the entire industry.
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You know it makes sense.
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Quite enjoying the irony of claiming the denial of jobs for Brits (I don't think that will happen, just that it will require additional admin and associated cost relative to hiring those with automatic right to work in the EU) would be racial discrimination whilst also labouring the point of how important it is for Brits on holiday to be in accommodation staffed by Brits rather than foreigners.
| froomie wrote: |
As several of you rightly point out, staffing chalets isn't simply about who'll do it cheapest. |
I'd have thought the willingness of TOs to employ teenagers with no real cooking experience to cater for guests was an indicator that cost was pretty high up on the list of recruitment considerations.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@Hand Wringer, +1
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Poster: A snowHead
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@Hand Wringer, 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| froomie wrote: |
Whilst there may be some issues once Brexit occurs, it's in the interests of the entire ski industry (UK and European) to find a way for things to continue pretty much as they are.
As several of you rightly point out, staffing chalets isn't simply about who'll do it cheapest. British clients on the whole prefer chalets staffed by Brits as this adds to the overall experience.
Force wholesale changes on how chalets work and everyone loses in the long term. Thousands of potential skiers might never be introduced to the sport and the concept of the skiing holiday. Chalets with the likes of Crystal, Ski Beat, Inghams, Skiworld are a great entry point to skiing for people who, as they grow older and wealthier, may become more discerning and change their tastes to other types of accomodation. Start putting barriers in their way and who knows what they try instead of skiing but if they're lost then it's to the detriment of the entire industry. |
Not just point of entry but I'd argue often the most efficient way for experienced skier to get bang for their buck and their fundamental needs taken care of. I don't like any snobbery which looks down on TO skiers (although as a bit of advice you are being mugged off for that tedious pub crawl). But skiing nations seem to have a curious attitude to guests - the French seem to regard them as their own property to make money off (re onpiste escorting and the stories about them hating packed lunch carrying guests), while the Austrians and Swiss seem to be a bit more elegant about parting guests from their wallets by smothering them in service, schmaltz or bangin Eurocheese. & everyone seems to be determined to take things upmarket regardless of the fact that there is nothing about the core product (bar cloudseeding) that you can do to make it better.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| koru wrote: |
| If Brexit means Brits can't work in chalets (and I have no idea if it will), I imagine there will be enough candidates who have, or can get, Irish passports. |
Or there'll just be a trned staffed by young Irish people. Much 'closer' to Brits than any other European nationality and a reputation for partying hard.
I'm in the process of doing my Irish passport though, gonna make the airport queue better having an EU passport
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@Dave of the Marmottes, I really don't believe that the catered chalet with an 18 year old who's worked down the local caf for a week and done some home eccies cooking for a part of 10 is responsible for the continuation of the UK ski market.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| under a new name wrote: |
| @Dave of the Marmottes, I really don't believe that the catered chalet with an 18 year old who's worked down the local caf for a week and done some home eccies cooking for a part of 10 is responsible for the continuation of the UK ski market. |
No I don't belive the 18 year old is , although the fantasy of bagging a chalet girl is probably a spur for a tiny fantasist bit of the market ( we all know it's the manwhores working for the same companies that are more successful there).
But the way of cramming a bunch of strangers into an ordinary appartment or chalet and making it a fully catered experience that people will actually choose over available hotel or guest house options seems to be a a fairly big bit of the market and it would seem hard to make the economics stick if the staff all were to get paid local market rates. At the very least punters would start questioning why their no room to swing a cat bedroom was costing them £800 each.
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With at least 25% youth unemployment I think France can make up some of the slack for staffing.
As for hiring none EU staff, it is very very difficult at the moment to get any work permits - and that is for skilled, technical staff not low skilled labour.
I can only go on what the UK govt. current position is, that there will be no freedom of movement after Brexit.
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@Dave of the Marmottes, I'm a proud and shameless victim of such tactics
Never 'bagged' a chalet girl but shared a hot tub with a naked one which I'm sure you'll agree is about as close as us fatties can get 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@davidof, what? The UK govt actually has a position?
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| Dave of the Marmottes wrote: |
| as a bit of advice you are being mugged off for that tedious pub crawl. But skiing nations seem to have a curious attitude to guests - the French seem to regard them as their own property to make money off (re onpiste escorting and the stories about them hating packed lunch carrying guests) |
Hey! I was a resort rep for a big TO in a resort packed with Brits. We ran a pub crawl on a Monday night. Cost to the punter was €10, but all five of the bars that gave a "free shot" charged us nothing - the cost of one cheap bottle of flavoured vodka in return for at least 80-odd paid for drinks seens off in under an hour. The nightclub at the end of the night offered "free" entry to all on the crawl. Of course every other night of the week was free to get in too, but it was so horrid most people didn't go back... On a good week I could persuade 20 odd from my 10 chalets to attend, brilliant for me. However I'm not sure "mugged off" is quite right. Guests did get shown around a resort they might otherwise have been lost in, and most people seemed to have a blast. Value for money is very much in the eye of the beholder and €10 for a few hours' banter is not bad...
Put yourself in the shoes of a qualified instructor/mountain guide though. After years learning your trade, how might you feel to see the same rep on the Tuesday morning (still steaming drunk on 3 hours' sleep after the pub crawl) "guiding" a group of guests around the mountain who might otherwise have been your paying customers. As the rep who also did this, I can say first hand that neither I nor any of my colleagues were in any way properly equipped to do this. Stories of guests lost on the mountain on the other side of the resort, reps taking groups of nervous intermediates down challenging black runs and general lack of any safety considerations were commonplace. Looking back, I'm astonished that it was allowed to go on for so long unchecked.
Finally picnics. Would you walk into ANY restaurant anywhere in your home town, sit down and unwrap your sandwiches from home and expect no-one to say anything? These are businesses with a lot of staff and extraordinary overheads - any idea how much it costs to deliver a week's supplies to the top of any given peak?
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