Should "Social Media" be added to the list of Heuristic Traps?
It already fits very nice in the "Acceptance" category (going on the classic FACETS acronym version of the 6 main heuristic traps...).
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Weathercam wrote:
@DB, I'm now looking at cheap fold up metal detectors that fit in a back-pack, so when knee is better ski to the bottom of the slope and skin up looking for the ski.
Will there be room in your pack for that along with your new emergency skis???
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
@offpisteskiing, jeessss had to Google that, and what a "nozzaesque" article I found
The acceptance heuristic is the tendency to engage in activities that we think will get us noticed or accepted by people we like or respect, or by people who we want to like or respect us. We are socialized to this heuristic from a very young age, and because we are so vulnerable to it, it’s no surprise that it figures prominently among the heuristic traps embedded in advertising messages.
The acceptance heuristic is the tendency to engage in activities that we think will get us noticed or accepted by people we like or respect, or by people who we want to like or respect us. We are socialized to this heuristic from a very young age, and because we are so vulnerable to it, it’s no surprise that it figures prominently among the heuristic traps embedded in advertising messages.
You didn't need to google it, this text is linked in a post by me in the post above this one.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
@jbob,
Must stop posting when DICOAKB*
*Drunk in charge of a keyboard
After all it is free
After all it is free
DB wrote:
davidof wrote:
giving a temperature gradient of around 30C/meter.
30 Deg C per meter ?
Shirley you can't be serious !
Why not? You've had a fall of wet snow/rain which is by definition at 0 degrees. There is a fall of warm snow of 7" on top which insulates the wet layer which thus remains at 0 degrees. And the air temperature is -5 which means the surface of the slope is at -5.
A 5 degree temperature differential across 7" (17 cm) is about 30 degrees per metre
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
Sharkymark wrote:
@Weathercam, thanks for sharing and glad no terrible harm was done. Looks like a localised bare patch without trees that wasn't pinned well enough to hold the snow pack.
@spyderjon, strong bants mate
This is a myth about trees anchoring the snowpack. Weak layers, and slope angle are the main determining factors of potential slide activity, regardless if on tree lined slopes or open slopes, which are just as prone to slide in the right conditions. I've read too many avalanche reports here in the PNW, where skiers thought they were safe because they were skiing in the trees. All the avalanche courses I have taken, the instructors make this point abundantly clear. The trees, as Weathercam discovered via first hand experience add another variable of potential harm by being an object to be carried into.
I'm glad he is safe, and was willing to share his experience. It helps to bring a bit of reality and a learning experience for all of us next time we adventure and explore the off-piste.
@Weathercam, enjoy the wine, glad you're around to tell the tale
@Toadman, great article, everyone should read it
I was doing avalanche training last Sunday, lots of focus on establishing the angle, visualing run off, using the equipment. One other point that wasn't covered in the article is when in groups always take turns dropping in. Pretty much every other group we met off piste all dropped in close together, which is fun, but much more dangerous.
Am heading off now for a few days of shallow tree runs, much more aware and equipped than I have been in the past. Try not to run too fine a line between fun and safety.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
@Skiwi 55,
well said, totally agree.
Safe skiing everyone, we leave early Friday am for Bad Hofgastein, weather looking great
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
James the Last wrote:
DB wrote:
davidof wrote:
giving a temperature gradient of around 30C/meter.
30 Deg C per meter ?
Shirley you can't be serious !
Why not? You've had a fall of wet snow/rain which is by definition at 0 degrees. There is a fall of warm snow of 7" on top which insulates the wet layer which thus remains at 0 degrees. And the air temperature is -5 which means the surface of the slope is at -5.
A 5 degree temperature differential across 7" (17 cm) is about 30 degrees per metre
Thanks, I can see how that works now but on the first read 30 Deg warmer than -5 looked like a typo.
Reminds me of the heat loss calcs / vapour pressure cals we did at Uni to determine if condensation would occur within a wall and form damp. Looks very similar only with walls the materials composition and their thickness are known, with snow everything varies.
Only yesterday I did a ski tour where the best powder snow was in the car park at the bottom, temp inversion and the sun left a thin crust in many other places. No equation, calculation method or avalanche warning level could tell you what the snow was going to be like at any particular point.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
@Weathercam,
Do you as a group have a defined way of operating in risky terrain i.e.
Only one skiing the slope at a time.
Stopping in designated safe spots. "OK fred you go first and ski over to just below that rock on the far right".
Spotting each other just incase something happens. At least one person (pref. more) watches the skier and in the event of an avalanche remembers where the last point he/she saw the skier. This can greatly reduce the search area and time taken plus helps to better define the search area for lost equipment.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
It's always unnerving to be in the backcountry, or resort side country and have "fred" drop in on your group. And 99% of the time "fred" isn't wearing any avy safety gear.
I'm always amazed when skiing outside resort boundaries, and I see a parent with their kid, and none of them has a pack. And even if they do have a pack, it probably doesn't contain a shovel/probe and beacon.
Common sense and good judgement doesn't require a pack. Just some education/training, and actually using it...
Stay safe out there.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
@Toadman,
Just to be clear, every one in our group carries shovel, probe and transciever. Most are Austrian and have been skiing / ski touring since an early age, many (including I since 2006) have ABS bags too. We also go on avalanche training courses on a regular basis and do transceiver/beacon search training. This isn't inbounds stuff either, we ski tour the easier stuff ourselves but use guides to do the more challenging stuff (e.g. multi-peak 3000m + tours).
So whoever fred might be in our group he isn't going to ski above anybody on risky terrain and put them in danger.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
DB wrote:
@Weathercam,
Do you as a group have a defined way of operating in risky terrain i.e.
Only one skiing the slope at a time.
Stopping in designated safe spots. "OK fred you go first and ski over to just below that rock on the far right".
Spotting each other just incase something happens. At least one person (pref. more) watches the skier and in the event of an avalanche remembers where the last point he/she saw the skier. This can greatly reduce the search area and time taken plus helps to better define the search area for lost equipment.
Petty much exactly this, normally send Weathercam first though
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
@DB, I still question how many people actually know how to use the gear, though I suspect your Austrian locals will know.
Few weeks back I was running the "digging" side of our local CAF's avy training day, and everyone that came who had their own gear did not know how to shovel snow the correct way. That said I too did not know up to three or four years ago.
Then last night, was actually going through a mates back pack who has lived here for nigh on 20 seasons, and a very good skier and came across his probe which was quite a substantial piece of gear (I jokingly threw his plastic shovel away), and looked way more than 2.4m which was something positive, and then as I cast it out across the snow I could tell he'd never seen how to do that which he sheepishly confirmed.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Might I suggest that the macho core ski tourer thing is part of the problem and a heuristic in itself. If someone is going to hang with the locals they have to affect a casual scepticism of anything new fangled and at least imply they know exactly what they are doing. Rather than the default being let's assume we all don't know what we are doing there is a little bit of "let's check our beeps are transmitting and off we go".
@DB, I still question how many people actually know how to use the gear, though I suspect your Austrian locals will know.
Few weeks back I was running the "digging" side of our local CAF's avy training day, and everyone that came who had their own gear did not know how to shovel snow the correct way. That said I too did not know up to three or four years ago.
Then last night, was actually going through a mates back pack who has lived here for nigh on 20 seasons, and a very good skier and came across his probe which was quite a substantial piece of gear (I jokingly threw his plastic shovel away), and looked way more than 2.4m which was something positive, and then as I cast it out across the snow I could tell he'd never seen how to do that which he sheepishly confirmed.
A few thoughts on this:
1) There is an avalanche park in Les Arcs which me, the wife and kids did have a go in once and was very useful and interesting. Are there any anywhere else?
2) We have a standard for helmets and if you buy one you would assume it is fit for purpose. It seems that most avalanche shovels aren't fit for purpose. How do we impose a test or standard for this?
3) I am not aware of the correct way to shovel as it's the first I'd heard of there being a way. Is there any information or videos on this?
4) Putting the probe together is just like putting a tent pole together is it not? How difficult can it be?
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
@Dave of the Marmottes, think that's something that could have been pointed at the CAF a couple of years ago, but in the last two years there have been some big incidents involving 5+ fatalities with CAF outings and central CAF have been very quick to instigate training and procedures - now people have to sign up in advance for a tour, and be logged, then on leaving the van notices displayed in car window advising route and numbers.
However all the above does not mean the people that you are touring with still know how to use the gear!
It would almost be embarrassing for me to ask some other mates that I'm touring with in March do they know how to shovel etc, and should that not be the job of the guide anyway that we're with, though I'm sure he will not ask the question either.
@Layne, every minute counts should anyone find themselves in a rescue situation.
Not being familiar with your gear can cost vital minutes, like not being able to put your shovel together because one pin is bent backwards, to taking your brand new set of probes out to find there's a knot in the bag.
And NO you do not put them together like a tent pole!
You throw them out in front of you holding on to the end and then pull them back in - ten secs at most
I presume that there must be many vids on shoveling technique and team work, but essentially you cut the snow and then scoop the snow behind you rather than digging in and lifting it with an open shovel blade in much the same way as digging a hole, which is far more tiresome!
And then God forbid any of us find ourselves in a real rescue situation how many of us know how to prepare a body for evac, and what to check for, might be basic first aid, but there's also more that I did not know last year
Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Fri 10-02-17 12:13; edited 1 time in total
Must replace hubby's shovel,as it is plastic. It was ordered as a complete kit with backpack from Ortovox, and I'd never even considered the shovel wouldn't be metal.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
A lot of the probes now just require a flick out and a pull on the button to lock them. Trying to fit each section by hand wastes valuable time.
If you search on shovelling techniques for avi rescue there is plenty of info e.g. secondary people clearing, starting the dig at 1.5x burial distance below the victim (not really vital on sub 1m burials), rotating the lead digger etc.
@DB, I still question how many people actually know how to use the gear, though I suspect your Austrian locals will know.
Few weeks back I was running the "digging" side of our local CAF's avy training day, and everyone that came who had their own gear did not know how to shovel snow the correct way. That said I too did not know up to three or four years ago.
Then last night, was actually going through a mates back pack who has lived here for nigh on 20 seasons, and a very good skier and came across his probe which was quite a substantial piece of gear (I jokingly threw his plastic shovel away), and looked way more than 2.4m which was something positive, and then as I cast it out across the snow I could tell he'd never seen how to do that which he sheepishly confirmed.
True, I expect very few people have actually dug anybody out of a real avalanche (I haven't). I've seen my Austrian friends use shovels albeit on the flat terrain during avi training.
I knew you needed to dig in from downhill (1.5 rule) and that standing over the avy victim is a no go as it's not only inefficient digging but you squash the snow and reduce the air available. Plus as you dig down to the victim you have to be careful not to take his head off with the shovel as it basically means you've just down all that digging for nothing.
Now the reason that we have not been in avalanche trouble could be that we are all hardcore, gnarly and highly experienced but to be honest we are all getting on a bit (40+) and have children so we don't take big risks and the tours we do as a group without guides tend to be fairly mellow. When doing the higher peaks 2500m+ (e.g. Wildspitze, Großvenediger, St Anton back country) we will take a guide.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
I replaced my old shovel last year with this one... http://backcountryaccess.com/product/avalanche-shovel-b-2-ext/ It has a larger blade, stronger welded joint for handle and is built to take a fair bit of abuse. My usual ski partner has a smaller bladed shovel as with her smaller size and strength it is more appropriate for her to use. Even factors such as this can make a big difference in an emergency.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Dave of the Marmottes wrote:
Might I suggest that the macho core ski tourer thing is part of the problem and a heuristic in itself. If someone is going to hang with the locals they have to affect a casual scepticism of anything new fangled and at least imply they know exactly what they are doing. Rather than the default being let's assume we all don't know what we are doing there is a little bit of "let's check our beeps are transmitting and off we go".
I was on Großglockner (trekking in August not ski touring) around 15 years ago with two Austrians who I thought knew what they were doing. We got lost in fog on an icy steep slope (45 deg+) above sheer cliffs. We were lucky to get off alive, after that I diplomatically question the experience of anyone I'm on the mountain with.
Yes a lot of people are getting into touring as it's the latest fashion, some buy all the kit and just skin up the side of the piste so they can call themselves ski tourers. I expect in a real life avalanche situation the first thing many would do would be to get their phones out so they could upload it to facebook.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
Weathercam wrote:
It would almost be embarrassing for me to ask some other mates that I'm touring with in March do they know how to shovel etc, and should that not be the job of the guide anyway that we're with, though I'm sure he will not ask the question either.
I think that is part of my point - a little embarassment is nothing compared to someone being ineffective (or worse obstructive or unsafe ) in a real life emergency situation.
I always assume that guides don't spend more time on it because they make a base assumption that most of their charges will be ineffective in a situation anyway (& it isn't good business to imply your clients may not be the off piste gods they might believe themselves to be) but I do wonder if the carry over is that when people become more confident to do stuff themselves without guides they have never seen the example of how to do back to basics protocols with their group members (unless they have undertaken speciifc training).
No judgement here, there isn't a perfect answer.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
@Dave of the Marmottes,
Yes as an Insel Affe (Island Monkey - german slang for a British person) who only got into skiing at 28 and Ski touring in my mid thirties; asking someone who has Ski toured since being a teenager if they really know how to use an avy shovel could potentially pee them off.
Instead at the next long Ski touring Weekend coming up in March I will ask them to show me shoveling technique. I'll probably send them a couple of youtube clips before hand. They will either already know and be glad to show me or watch the clips and make out as though they knew how to do it all along. In the end it doesn't matter as by the end of the demonstration everyone knows how to do it esp as part of a team.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Dave of the Marmottes wrote:
... I always assume that guides don't spend more time on it because they make a base assumption that most of their charges will be ineffective in a situation anyway (& it isn't good business to imply your clients may not be the off piste gods they might believe themselves to be) but ...
In Canada you're going to be taught how to shovel, even if you're the world champion extreme skier. It's not optional. The guide would tell you (correctly) that they're most likely to go down, and you're most likely the first at the scene so you need to know.
In North America the "macho" thing is strong, in that Americans particularly will exaggerate their skill and experience. They don't carry that over into the "safety" stuff though: no on ever says "I'm an Alpine god, I don't need to be taught". The truth is, if they don't do the training, they don't get to ride, but I've never heard that threat used.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
DB wrote:
could potentially pee them off.
So what. Do you care if they're peed off? They're the ones who will be digging you out. If asking them that question irritates them, then do you really trust them to dig you out?
I wouldn't. Find some new ski buddies.
Nobody should be embarrassed to ask about safety.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
James the Last wrote:
DB wrote:
could potentially pee them off.
So what. Do you care if they're peed off
Lol ! How to win friends and influence people.
They are longtime friends, in the last 10+ years they've shown me many good ski touring routes. We've had many great ski touring trips (day trips and long weekends). I ain't gonna run the risk of peeing them off with basic questions when I don't need to esp as I've every confidence they would dig me out. There are other less direct more diplomatic ways to make sure everyone is on the same page when it comes to shovelling snow.
DB wrote:
They're the ones who will be digging you out. If asking them that question irritates them, then do you really trust them to dig you out?
I wouldn't. Find some new ski buddies.
Nobody should be embarrassed to ask about safety.
How you treat your friends is your business don't tell me how to treat mine.
PS Who do you ski tour with? What experience do they have? What avi training have you done together? Where have you ski toured?
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
DB wrote:
Lol ! How to win friends and influence people.
I'm not trying to. I'd be trying to make sure that, in a dangerous place, I would trust the people whom I am with not to get me into trouble and to get me out of trouble. If they are of such feeble self-confidence that asking them if they know how to shovel snow properly would pee them off then I wouldn't be skiing with them.
It's all a matter of one's attitude to risk. I consider death a riskier problem than the risk of irritating somebody. Not everybody has the same attitude to risk.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Another salutary story from Chamonix, from a friend who had a timely reminder yesterday:
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
You don't even need to explicitly ask people. Raising a conversation about latest techniques and mentioning that research has been done into the most effective shovelling methods can get people talking about it.
Ended up running out of slope, on top of a cliff, with the piste I left way uphill, now on the other side of a steep ravine. 4pm in Feb and phone dead. Lost my mate and alone, not a clue what to do.
No map, no compass, no daylight and alone - and with an over-reliance on your mobile phone and calling an Uber. Time to learn some mountain craft, I think. Although ski resorts often have a similar feel to a municipal swimming pool - busy, coffee on tap, loads of people around - they're places where people die.
That's it in a nutshell James - the situation I found myself in. The shock for me was how quickly I went from safe piste skiing to alone and in grave danger. 2 minutes tops. Part of the message has to be the serious hazards just past the piste markers. Just off trail and over that brow is a tree well that will swallow you whole and you will die while your mates think you stopped uphill to take a panorama. It wasn't a backcountry expedition - we didn't pack tourers, skins, terrain maps. It was a day inbounds skiing groomed blues and reds with missus and mates in the "safest" of ski territory, and it was very nearly curtains. Now I never venture off-trail without a guide and my eyes are opened to the features and terrain and the implications of what could be over that brow.
Have just purchased that resource. Thanks for the reference!
Appreciate this forum, we're all here to learn and share our learning
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Fri 10-02-17 21:06; edited 1 time in total
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
James the Last wrote:
DB wrote:
Lol ! How to win friends and influence people.
I'm not trying to. I'd be trying to make sure that, in a dangerous place, I would trust the people whom I am with not to get me into trouble and to get me out of trouble. If they are of such feeble self-confidence that asking them if they know how to shovel snow properly would pee them off then I wouldn't be skiing with them.
It's all a matter of one's attitude to risk. I consider death a riskier problem than the risk of elling somebody. Not everybody has the same attitude to risk.
So you interrogate everyone you ski off piste with? Maybe you could give them a form to fill out before they are allowed to ski off-piste with you. If you don't mind me asking what are your offpiste credentials they must be high if you can demand such a high level of experience?
Of course my friends would dig me out, all we are dicussing is whether they would do it with the upmost efficiency.
To be honest if I did outright ask they would probably take the pee with something like "Is there a course for snow shoveling in England? How do they do it without snow? Do they do it in one of those ski halls ? Do the SCGB give you a certificate for that or a purple badge?"
If I met up with a group of ski tourers and one guy started asking all sorts of questions about how to shovel snow my first thoughts would be this guy shouldn't be ski touring he's thinking too much about how it could go wrong, it's likely to go wrong with him. If when skiing offpiste fear takes over all the time then you are better off staying on the piste.
Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Fri 10-02-17 22:50; edited 1 time in total
I wonder how many freeride groups led by a professional guide would be able to rescue their guide if he/she was hit by an avalanche.
A friend was being led by a guide from the local mountaineering group (Alpenverein). The guide had an accident and was airlifted off the mountain, he was dazed /not fully conscious as they flew him to hospital. As the group consisted of experienced ski tourers they decided to finish the tour themselves. Caused a bit of a stir when the guide came to his senses in hospital and asked what had happened to the group he was leading.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
I remember one group I was in (not Snowheads, I was a SC leader at the time) when the guide, rather than do a quick course in transceiver training, asked the group to show him their shovels and probes.
After 10 minutes, 3 of the group hadn't managed to put theirs together, one guy still had his probe in the plastic wrapping from the shop...........................
After all it is free
After all it is free
Our group usually has a warm-up day in resort before we go touring. We make a habit of practising a full-blown rescue. Suddenly, without warning, I'll shout 'bin bags' (our codeword for avalanche) and disappear of down the hill. I'll scatter bits of gear and bury my transceiver then stand out of the way and shout ready. I'll observe as they sort themselves into a, hopefully, effective search and rescue team. Then we'll all have a good chin-wag afterwards to sort out some of the wrinkles.
IMV, the beacon search is only a small part of the puzzle. After someone has taken command the most difficult part seems to be getting everyone to do what they are told!
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
@altis, Great idea Yup, and even when they all do act together the shovelling usually takes the longest time.
For a quick search practice I am after one of those soft foam nerf balls, American Football shaped. I have an old beacon to stick inside, stick it in a white plastic bag and you can just sling it to the side (check the area is safe first) and even search yourself if you shut your eyes when throwing
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
altis wrote:
...... After someone has taken command the most difficult part seems to be getting everyone to do what they are told!
Very true, would be alright if you were with a guide, and he was the one not buried, but if it was a load of mates.............though think they appreciate some of the training I've done and just might listen to me
On that course I did there were a few practicals leading up to the exam, and in our group we had an Ex US Army Captain, who was a bit of a jock, and there was no way he wasn't going to be ousted as "leader", that said I would never ski with him again, which transpired to be the case a couple of months later.
But yes it was stressed about the role of the group leader......
But hate to imagine making a wrong call when someone else was advising differently, not something you'd ever like on your conscience.
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
