 Poster: A snowHead
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| chocksaway wrote: |
| ... So to use an old Yorkshire Phrase if it looks like a canard and quacks like a canard - it is probably a canard - or in this case a ski school.... |
I've never read the daily fail; I've lived and worked in France; I employ both Brits and Europeans, and I don't want to leave Europe.
However it looks like am obvious restrictive practice, simply because it is. You can excuse it as part of the French national character, which it is in the same way restrictive practices were part of the "British Disease" in the 1970s.
It allows them to get away with famously low-service levels of tuition, which is bad for everyone in the long term.
That's great. That means i'm not likely to run into you then.
I'd recommend you take lessons in any country where the ski school doesn't operate a closed shop. Then you'll learn how not run into anyone any more.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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AFAIK there are more competing ski schools in major French ski resorts than in most other major ski countries. So visitors can choose from low cost ESF lessons (of variable quality, sometimes poor, sometimes very good) or a range of different schools, mostly more expensive. The only properly "closed shops" seem to be in North America, where punters pay huge fees and instructors get paid little ones and are not allowed to ply for trade independently.
As they would be in France, if they were fully qualified. Even in my little French resort there are two competing ski schools and a number of independent individual instructors (mostly focussed on cross country and touring, but they'll do piste skiing too).
None of that proves that the set up in Les Houches hasn't been shabbily treated, of course. I don't know enough about the circumstances to reach a judgement either way.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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^ pam w, as I thought you knew from earlier comments, this particular case isn't about average punters rocking up for a 2-hour lesson, it's about a school with a full curriculum, that's for aspirant ski racers. So comparisons with the USA are not really relevant unless you know of similar setups, or attempts to launch them, over there.
| Quote: |
| None of that proves that the set up in Les Houches hasn't been shabbily treated, of course. |
I think the whole village has been shafted. Large numbers of visitors (in the context of a small village) will now be lodging, eating, drinking, buying lift tickets - and hiring local instructors - somewhere else; that somewhere else being Pila, contrary to your earlier supposition:
| pam w wrote: |
| They'd probably get short shrift in Italy too. |
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Well I'm glad they have found a good alternative. My comment above was in response to the implication that skiers visiting France would find no alternative ski schools whereas the truth seems to be that there are more competing ski schools in French resorts than elsewhere. In that context comparison with the "company store" US resorts seems relevant to me.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| skimastaaah wrote: |
Just imagine the combined spending power of British (including Scottish) skiers NOT buying anything French. For example French skis, French ski boots, French bindings, French ski clothes. In fact anything even midly associated with French anything to do with skiing!
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People were talking about that after the ski leaders were prosecuted but it never happened.
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It'll never happen; just idle talk. 
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| pam w wrote: |
| It'll never happen; just idle talk. |
Ah Pam, with all your time there, do you think you might be becoming just a little bit French? That complacency is just so like them 
I used to ski almost exclusively in France.
Over recent years though, I have skied more and more in countries other than France. It reached the point last year that I skied more days outside France than in it. This year I've skied more days just in Italy than France and skied other places too.
Now, as you may be aware, I don't often go skiing on my own so what's happening here is: the more I, personally ski elsewhere, the more skier-days other people are spending similarly. So, this season, for the first time, (significantly) more snowHeads skied in Italy on bashes than in France.
And the thing is, nobody's coming back from Italy saying, "You know, what I really like about France though is..." and yet, on the French trips every time someone feels a taken advantage of in a mountain bar, talk turns to Italian food and hospitality: "You know in Italy the pizza would be half the price and the chips would be warm!"
"Yes, and they'd act like they wanted you in their restaurant too!"
So I think, at least to some degree, it is already happening.
It's not that I'm trying to make some grand symbolic point here: it's just sort of happened because I don't really like being treated like a... well, let me moderate myself here... like a 'mug' shall we say. Motorway service stations, restaurants and cafes, lift-co's and hotels - on the whole, I increasingly resent engaging with any of them in France. OK, there are exceptions but IMHO, the 'surprisingly courteous' treatment we receive in Val Thorens shouldn't actually be surprising! - that's how you should be able to expect to be treated when you, the client, are the raison d'etre for their jobs, their companies, their whole damn town! Whether I turn up offering a business (literally) 10's of 1000's of €'s worth of trade or just offering to let them relieve me of >5€ for a paper cup full of hot chocolate, I know there's a good chance I will be met with disdain, often quite overtly. Our experiences of outright rudeness seem to be occurring with such frequency now that I find it quite impossible to keep cynicism at bay and so I tend to just end up going somewhere else where I get treated more politely.
I have no personal allegiance to Simon Butler, to the BSA, to Le Ski or the SCGB and I am certainly not qualified to fight their corners but every time one of these stories (re-)surfaces, the belligerence and bolshiness in the French attitude seems all too familiar and I find my mind filling with recollections of tuts and pouts and sighs, of drinks, spilled as they're slapped down too hard on the counter in front of me with no apology or offer to wipe it clean just a flat demand for the arbitrarily large sum attached to it.
Enter a busy restaurant and you're treated as if it's a bother fitting you in as they clearly don't need the extra business; enter an empty one and it's like they resent you disturbing their peace! It's not hard extrapolating this directly experienced behaviour to these news stories and coming to the automatic conclusion that it's, at least to some degree, the French being greedy/lazy/short-sighted/narrow-minded/introspective/protectionist and so the stereotype is perpetuated.
It's a shame: I know some lovely (French) people in France, with whom it's a pleasure to associate and/or do business - most of them are as frustrated with the 'French attitude' as I am.
Basically, IMHO they need to either:
- Pull their finger out at work and try a bit bloody harder or
- Start enjoying their 35hr/wk life/work balance and learn to bloody smile once in a while!
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@admin, yes, I used to ski 3 weeks a year in France (one week leading a party of 60) and somewhere else once in a blue moon. Summer holiday in France too. Now it's one week family skiing and a long weekend doing something else every few years. Italy and the US and Canada have benefited, such as it's worth. With one glaring exception, I've not had that much to complain about service-wise (and have also met with great service); this is all to do with un-European protectionism of favoured groups. It really does hurt them (via internal and external trade) when it's all added up. Why else would unemployment in France be persistently double that in the UK and Germany?
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@laundryman, I admire your willingness to boycott France on the basis of principle, even though you've mostly had acceptable or great service there. You're presumably giving up on France too, @admin, though I'm sure some Snowheads will miss the Pre- and End of Season bashes in the Tarentaise. But two swallows do not a summer make. I admired (and joined) the Brits who boycotted fruit from apartheid South Africa but most people didn't bother, did they?
The worst rip off skiing lunch I ever encountered was in Val Thorens. Flaine and Val d'Isere weren't much better. The worst single episode of shocking service was in an Austrian hotel (sadly before the days of Trip Advisor). The most fraudulent, lying, garage was in Aosta, where my clutch went bust.
When I went out on a "pre piste opening" morning with a pisteur in Les Saisies I learnt that almost all of them were local and that in the Tarentaise almost all of them aren't. I think that makes a difference to attitudes to service. Certainly I have encountered nothing but good, friendly, service in my area - there are seasonal staff in some establishments but the bar and restaurant owners are all right there, keeping a close eye on everything and very keen to retain their customers. The owners of my local restaurant live there all year round, with their two little boys.
Motorway service areas aren't my favourite place but IME the French ones aren't too bad. When I can get a decent coffee and fresh escargot for less than the price of the cheapest Costa at Clackets Lane, I won't complain. And if you hit the right time of day you can get some reasonable food too, especially the buffets of salads. I am very fond of Italy but the Italian service areas are a grim place to try to eat. Any number of cheap bottles of Montepulciano d'Abruzzo on sale, but unless you want a heavy kind of pastry full of jam, or a packet of biscuits or sweets, you can forget it.
Personally it defeats me why so many Brits flock to be ripped off in the Tarentaise.
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@pam w, it's not exactly a boycott. More openness to explore other places, in part driven by frustration. I find much to admire about France and the French, but the liberty-equality-fraternity stuff, and the Europeanism they like to project, is mythology in my view.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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France had 59.3 million skier / days last year compared to 2nd place America with 53 million skier / days. I wish people would boycott France, it's getting busier and busier.
I do recognise much of what Graeme is saying, things have become "febrile" in France. It is partly the pressure of high unemployment and big tax hikes over the last few years (my tax has increased 20% and we're not exactly high rollers). However in reference to your IMHO, most French work pretty damn hard and not that many swan around on a 35 hour / week. Perhaps junior civil servants and some unsackable "old lags" but I doubt resort workers living in converted van in a windswept carpark are doing those kind of hours.
Last edited by snowHeads are a friendly bunch. on Sun 8-05-16 14:25; edited 2 times in total
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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If foreign visitors are factoring standards of motorway service stations into their evaluations, the UK is surely doomed 
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| pam w wrote: |
@laundryman, @admin, though I'm sure some Snowheads will miss the Pre- and End of Season bashes in the Tarentaise. But two swallows do not a summer make. I admired (and joined) the Brits who boycotted fruit from apartheid South Africa but most people didn't bother, did they?
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Clearly they didn't enjoy these bashes, and will enjoy them more when admin arranges them for Italy, judging from the anti=French sentiment on this thread though Pam.
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You know it makes sense.
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That "anti-French sentiment" is well and truly earned by said French! That "sentiment" is well and truly based on multiple experiences in multiple resorts over multiple decades with a multitude of our French friends in many capacities associated with skiing and ski holidays. Why I persevered in a tide of obvious disdain was mainly due to the wealth of skiing in France and an optimistic hope that things would improve.
(BTW...... I sold my place in Honfleur 6 years ago because I realised I was no longer a Francophile, as indifference seemed pandemic in France ... I got real, I got out, I'd had enough.)
As Admin says .... "Our experiences of outright rudeness seem to be occurring with such frequency now that I find it quite impossible to keep cynicism at bay and so I tend to just end up going somewhere else where I get treated more politely." Certainly sums it up for me!
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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What is the consensus, should non-EU nationals be allowed to work in the EU in any job or just as race coaches ?
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Poster: A snowHead
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@pam w,
| Quote: |
Personally it defeats me why so many Brits flock to be ripped off in the Tarentaise.
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OK I am one of those who flock to the Tarentaise and I must admit I find the level of welcome and service exceeds that I have had in any other ski area.
It starts with the lift pass office where the women behind the desk discuss all the possible options on lift pass and price them up for you and even make reccomendations, such as the weather forcast is poor so I suggest you only buy a single day pass.
It continues to the lifts where the attendents wish you good day and hold the chair for you.
Depending on the retaurant the waiters chat to you - in English.
Then in the bar the barmaid shakes your hand when you enter and asks how you are.
There appears to be two different Frances and two different Tarrentaise
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Quote: |
If foreign visitors are factoring standards of motorway service stations into their evaluations, the UK is surely doomed
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| johnE wrote: |
..
Then in the bar the barmaid shakes your hand when you enter and asks how you are.. |
...and they're always glad you came.
You are Tiger Woods and I claim my £5 
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I picked the wrong day to book next season's ski trip to Chamonix
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I go to the Tarentaise because my skiing friends like to go there and there's no chance at all I'd persuade them to go elsewhere.
As far as how chatty the waiters are or whether the lift attendant says hello, evidently these things matter to some but really I couldn't care less. The same people who tell you to have a nice day may also be spitting in your soup. It doesn't mean anything.
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| Quote: |
people who tell you to have a nice day
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Thankfully I don't think anybody in France has ever told me to have a nice day. But "bon soir" (or whatever is appropriate for the time of day) is ubiquitous. I hope nobody teaching English to staff of French establishments ever coaches them to say "take care". Or when they get extra fluent "You take care now". 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| davidof wrote: |
| France had 59.3 million skier / days last year compared to 2nd place America with 53 million skier / days. I wish people would boycott France, it's getting busier and busier.... |
Happy to do my bit - and happy that it's mutually beneficial.
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@miranda,
The last few times I've stopped at motorway services in the UK I have been served by charming Eastern European girls.
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You know it makes sense.
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@musher, well you've probably also recently been served by some indifferent bloke who didn't go out of his way to smile at you, but for some unfathomable reason, these "charming girls" have stuck in your memory
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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It's all rather predictably silly - the francophiles see no defect in their beloved, the hardcore francophobes speak of boycotts. The rest of us shrug and accept "it's France 'innit what can you do?" - you'd almost think we've acquired some Gallic existententialism somewhere along the line
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Poster: A snowHead
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Au contraire, I'm sure I'm in the "francophile" category given that I happily live there, and I've always been of the opinion "it's France 'innit?" - the gallic shrug and indifferent service is hardly a 21st century development in France.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Quote: |
the francophiles see no defect in their beloved
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I think if you read the thread more carefully you'll find that that's not the case
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| pam w wrote: |
| Quote: |
the francophiles see no defect in their beloved
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I think if you read the thread more carefully you'll find that that's not the case |
+2
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So we're all agreed that the best response is a shrug and maybe a resigned "Bof!"
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@Dave of the Marmottes, Yes, unless you have more details than are in the BSA blog post.
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@rjs I can certainly see that if I was running a ski related business in France , particularly one that however tangentially could be perceived as taking bread out of the mouth of an ESF instructor (regardless whether ESF would ever realistically have an anticipation of getting the work) then I should be prepared to be repeatedly and periodically dobbed in to the authorities and the authorities/state to devote significant resources to these complaints where in other circumstances one might expect them to thank the informant for their time and put them on file. I would expect this regardless of the length of time I had been running my business, how much value I had created for the local economy and how favourably regarded I was in the local community. Clearly I would also at all times have to keep a Plan B in my pocket as to how I could move my activities to a neighbouring country.
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@Dave of the Marmottes, There used to be a bit on the BSA website on its history, the location in Les Houches was suggested by the current Technical Director of the French Ski Federation, I don't think they were trying to hide from the authorities. Until last winter all the coaches were EU nationals who were qualified to work in France, I have been on courses with most of them.
This winter, the most of the coaches are from the US and Canada. I have no idea on their qualifications, or on what qualifications would be required to get a work permit for a non-EU race coach, do you ?
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| Quote: |
This winter, the most of the coaches are from the US and Canada. I have no idea on their qualifications, or on what qualifications would be required to get a work permit for a non-EU race coach, do you ?
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That's a good question. How hard would it be for, say, a French coach to get a job in the US or Canada?
Why did the school switch to non-EU coaches? I'd have thought France, Austria and Italy were simply stuffed with qualified race coaches.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| pam w wrote: |
| Why did the school switch to non-EU coaches? I'd have thought France, Austria and Italy were simply stuffed with qualified race coaches. |
From my observations, most of the coaches employed by the various British academies across tend to employ mostly British coaches, with some Aussies/NZ and odd spattering of Canadians. French/Austria/Italian/Swiss coaches seem to prefer working with their local clients or have their own coaching setup in their resort - I guess that's more lucrative/easier for them.
Specifically with BSA, they've been running early-season (Nov/Dec) training in Canada in the last few years, and I suspect that some of the Canadian coaches made sufficient impression that they were invited back to coach in Les Houches. Certainly in January this year, Conrad Pridy was coaching for them and made a big impression on some of the British Children's team (U16s) who were there at the time - he might be "not qualified" according to the French rules, but he is an excellent coach and great role model.
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@RobW, if i they are employing non-EU coaches then the case is less clear cut. While they may be excellent coaches, if they do not have a work permit for either the UK or France then they are probably breaking immigration law. This would apply even if they had full French equivalence.
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