 Poster: A snowHead
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| foxtrotzulu wrote: |
| If they weren't such an awful fashion disaster, then a bum bag / 'fanny pack' would be a far better option than a rucksack for most skiers. |
Fanny packs are coming back into fashion.
Dior and others adding them to their collections.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Steve146 wrote: |
Hi all,
Last year i suffered a whiplash injury which finished my ski holiday early, I had a nasty fall and landed on my back, head pointing down the slope. As I was wearing a rucksack, when I landed my head jerked back over the rucksack causing the whiplash. Although the rucksack probably provided some cushioning for my back, don't think I would have got whiplash had I not been wearing it. Will shortly heading off for my first skiing since so wanted to know if it is generally considered sensible or not to wear a rucksack while skiing or was I just unlucky?!
Thanks! |
Backpacks unbalance the skier, add unnecessary weight, and slow you down.
And they look tragic.
Don't do it.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| welshskier wrote: |
My Dakine Helipro has an inbuilt back protector and when I don't wear it I do feel more vulnerable. I don't carry much, spare gloves and goggles, fleece, energy bar. If I'm going off piste I add shovel and probes (I know some will say I should always have them, but I exercise my free will  ). |
Would anyone suggest you carry shovel etc all the time? Also, why a spare pair of gloves?
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| Quote: |
Would anyone suggest you carry shovel etc all the time? Also, why a spare pair of gloves?
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Have you ever seen gloves under a chair lift? Also I have cold hands and my spare pair are thinner for the odd occasion that it's warm (like the whole of last week!).
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I would say that of all items to carry spare gloves would be the most essential. A lost/damaged/wet glove could make getting off the hill a significant safety issue, not everybody could ski with their hand(s) in their pockets.
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Sometimes I ski with no pack, sometimes a small (11 litre) pack with a few bits and bobs in it, sometimes an airbag avy pack, and occasionally I've skied with a day touring kit with 30m rope, cramps, skins, bivvy bag, avy kit, food, water, etc. When I'm actually skiing I don't notice much difference between no pack and large pack, I just focus on making enjoyable turns. Anyone who argues that a pack unbalances you is talking nonsense.
There's no right answer to this, certainly not for all skiers for all of the time. If you are carrying stuff that you don't want to store in your pockets then fine, wear a pack. Be sensible with it on chairlifts, and be respectful of people around you in a crowded cablecar.
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@rob@rar,
| Quote: |
| Anyone who argues that a pack unbalances you is talking nonsense. |
A backpack raises your centre of gravity and therefore reduces your stability. That much is surely beyond dispute. What you can argue about is how much it unbalances you. A light day pack with 1-2Kg inside is unlikely to make much difference. However, 5-10Kg will certainly have some impact. Have you never seen/felt the difference when scarmbling over rugged terrain if you are wearing a rucksack?
@welshskier, @Basil, I've also seen goggles, sunglasses, ski poles and hats beneath a lift but we don't carry spares of all of those too. I'm not sure if it's the fact that we don't really have mountains or extreme weather in the UK but I fear that, as a nation, we tend to treat a day's skiing in the Alps as if we are trekking unsupported to the South pole. If you look at the typical crowd in a ski resort then, from personal observation, only 10-15% carry a rucksack. Most of them seem to be Brits. How do all the funny foreigners survive without them?
Please note, I'm not ranting against people taking off-piste kit with them and obviously everyone is welcome to take whatever they want with them. I'm just making a small stand against the idea that we actually need all this kit with us all the time.
@rob@rar,
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Be sensible with it on chairlifts, and be respectful of people around you in a crowded cablecar. |
Well said! My pet hate is people who don't remove their packs in crowded/cramped spaces (tube, boarding aeroplanes/lifts etc.)
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@foxtrotzulu, I wasn't going to post any more on this thread, but the who the hell is carrying 10kg on their back?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@foxtrotzulu, I can ski without poles and if I lose my helmet my hood is securely attached to my jacket, but as noted elsewhere goggles and gloves are harder to manage without. I do agree that the chance of needing any of this is quite small, but maybe it is my security blanket!
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| foxtrotzulu wrote: |
@rob@rar,
| Quote: |
| Anyone who argues that a pack unbalances you is talking nonsense. |
A backpack raises your centre of gravity and therefore reduces your stability. That much is surely beyond dispute. What you can argue about is how much it unbalances you. A light day pack with 1-2Kg inside is unlikely to make much difference. However, 5-10Kg will certainly have some impact. Have you never seen/felt the difference when scarmbling over rugged terrain if you are wearing a rucksack? |
Millions of years of evolution have equipped us with highly sensitive, remarkably efficient mechanisms which allow us to balance in multiple planes and dynamic situations. Our bodies adapt remarkably well to all sorts of encumbrances without losing our ability to stay in dynamic balance. Sticking a few kilograms on our backs makes no significant difference. How many recreational skiers have packs which weigh 5-10kg?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| foxtrotzulu wrote: |
| I'm just making a small stand against the idea that we actually need all this kit with us all the time. |
Surely what people need on the slopes varies from person to person, and for individuals from day to day depending on their skiing plans? I wouldn't dream of telling anyone I'm teaching what or what not to carry on the slopes.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Quote: |
I'm not sure if it's the fact that we don't really have mountains or extreme weather in the UK but I fear that, as a nation, we tend to treat a day's skiing in the Alps as if we are trekking unsupported to the South pole. If you look at the typical crowd in a ski resort then, from personal observation, only 10-15% carry a rucksack. Most of them seem to be Brits. How do all the funny foreigners survive without them?
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Whenever I go hill walking in Scotland I always carry a daysack. When I ski I do as well, not sure about the observation that it is mainly Brits . I have been skiing twice this year so far first time was with Brit friends and family and I was the only one witha backpack.
Second was with a group of only one other Brit and five assorted foreigners, all were carrying packs.
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@SnoodyMcFlude, @rob@rar, I wasn't suggesting many/any people did have 10Kg rucksacks. My point was that any weight above your CoG will reduce your balance. A good skier like you, rob@rar, won't notice it. That doesn't mean it isn't happening and for those of us who are less expert then even a couple of Kg isn't going to help. I'm not suggesting that you stick a Kg on your back and you'll instantly fall over, but stick 3-4Kg on your back and in a dodgy moment it could make a difference.
@welshskier, You carry spare goggles/gloves as a safety precaution. When you offset that against the equally small but more serious risk posed by a rucksack on a chairlift then it probably isn't helping to reduce your overall risk. Losing goggles/gloves is very unlikley to to do more than ruin your afternoon. Getting a rucksack strap caught could ruin your whole week.
@rob@rar,
| Quote: |
Surely what people need on the slopes varies from person to person, and for individuals from day to day depending on their skiing plans? I wouldn't dream of telling anyone I'm teaching what or what not to carry on the slopes. |
I'm not 'telling' anyone what they can/cannot carry. Paint yourself green and strap a naked blonde called Michelle to yourself if that's what you want to do. But surely if, for the sake of argument, if someone was carrying a spare pair of skis, boots and poles with them - just in case they get dropped/broken/stolen - it would be fair enough to comment on the fact that this was unnecessary?
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You know it makes sense.
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| foxtrotzulu wrote: |
| But surely if, for the sake of argument, if someone was carrying a spare pair of skis, boots and poles with them - just in case they get dropped/broken/stolen - it would be fair enough to comment on the fact that this was unnecessary? |
I'd rather the discussion stick in the realm of the credible than descend to an argument at the extremes (although I must say I'm tempted by your Michelle idea). For typical skiers I think wearing a backpack with typical contents makes no discernible difference, certainly not to their ability to ski in balance.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Henceforth I shall also carry a spare Michelle. If you are a Michelle, please forward details...
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Poster: A snowHead
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| foxtrotzulu wrote: |
@rob@rar,
| Quote: |
| Anyone who argues that a pack unbalances you is talking nonsense. |
. However, 5-10Kg will certainly have some impact. Have you never seen/felt the difference when scarmbling over rugged terrain if you are wearing a rucksack?
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I do quite a lot of touring and on multi-day trips away from staffed huts you can end up with 10kg on your back. It does affect your balance but after a short while your brain adjust. What is more of a problem is skiing with that much extra weight is very tiring, all that unweighting, flexing etc takes a lot more energy. This shouldn't be a problem on piste as no one will be carrying that sort of weight, a fleece and a few bits and bobs won't break the donkey's back.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@foxtrotzulu, 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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If we're telling crap jokes then...Man goes to the doctor with a steering wheel down his underpants. Doctor asks "what happened?", chap replies "dunno, but it's driving me nuts"
Slightly back towards the topic, as I've always skied with a bag on then surely my body is already making an allowance for having that weight on my back? The brain is a clever thing, I'm pretty sure that 2kg on my back (along with the 110 that I carry already) isn't going to make a huge difference to my balance. The thing that's far more likely to cause a problem is the fact that I'm a lazy skier anyway.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@OwenM,
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| ..end up with 10kg on your back. It does affect your balance but after a short while your brain adjusts... |
In fact, a positive effect when skiing with a rucksack can be that it helps to make you ski with a quiet upper body, as you don't want to impart any unneccessary momentum to the sack in any other direction than your direction of motion...
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Sometimes it's really funny to be on Snowheads. 
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| foxtrotzulu wrote: |
| I'm not sure if it's the fact that we don't really have mountains or extreme weather in the UK but I fear that, as a nation, we tend to treat a day's skiing in the Alps as if we are trekking unsupported to the South pole. If you look at the typical crowd in a ski resort then, from personal observation, only 10-15% carry a rucksack. Most of them seem to be Brits. How do all the funny foreigners survive without them? |
Brit's are also the only nation whose people insist on all manner of insurance!
A "typical crowd of funny foreigners" clearly survive without (and probably applied the insurance premium on a couple extra glass of wine. 
Carrying a backpack goes quite well with "insurance". Only in this case, it "insures" your ski day will not be interrupted by dropping a glove, breaking a goggle strap, or god forbid, dehydration!
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My wine and beaufort sandwiches would not fit comfortably in my pockets. Granted I'd also want both on an unsupported trek to the South Pole.
As for not getting extreme weather in the UK - what counts as extreme? In the last few weeks there have been 130+mph winds on Cairngorm and a section of the A93 has been swept away by flood water. Just a couple of very recent examples.
And we've got lots of mountains.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@swiftoid, Wine and Beaufort sandwiches are one of the few valid reasons for carrying a rucksack!
Extreme weather - yes, we do get very high winds and plenty of rain, but you have to be pretty unlucky to be in a position of getting sunstroke, frostbite, hypothermia etc. yes, you CAN get all of those, but as a nation we have pretty benign weather. It's seldom going to kill you on its own.
@SnoodyMcFlude, @geoffers, While I like the idea that a pack teaches you to ski more calmly, it doesn't really alter the fact that a pack exerts a destabilising force. In. In most situations you won't notice it, but when you are at the edge of your balance then you might do. When hiking you don't think of a pack as unbalancing you, but when you start to climb of rocks etc. then IMO you do. Personally, I spend a great deal of time on the edge of balance when skiing and have no desire to stack any more cards against myself. Don't forget that you can't view the extra 2kg in the context of your 110kg (fat boy!). It's all about levers. Force times distance from CoG, or whatever it was.
Anyway, I wasn't personally arguing that the balance issue was a significant reason not to wear a pack. I just think people, particularly Brits) tend to carry too much unnecessary stuff with them when skiing. I love skiing in a T-shirt. The feeling of being unencumbered is marvellous. OK, I need a coat most of the time but as a general principle I like to minimise the amount of clobber I carry. What do I carry? Credit card and cash (ditch the wallet), phone (tempted not to this year), lip salve, sunglasses (if I'm not wearing them to ski anyway), and someone in the party will bring a tiny tube of suncream. That's it for me.
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@foxtrotzulu, and if I move my pack to the front when I get on chairs?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| abc wrote: |
| foxtrotzulu wrote: |
| I'm not sure if it's the fact that we don't really have mountains or extreme weather in the UK but I fear that, as a nation, we tend to treat a day's skiing in the Alps as if we are trekking unsupported to the South pole. If you look at the typical crowd in a ski resort then, from personal observation, only 10-15% carry a rucksack. Most of them seem to be Brits. How do all the funny foreigners survive without them? |
Brit's are also the only nation whose people insist on all manner of insurance!
A "typical crowd of funny foreigners" clearly survive without (and probably applied the insurance premium on a couple extra glass of wine.
Carrying a backpack goes quite well with "insurance". Only in this case, it "insures" your ski day will not be interrupted by dropping a glove, breaking a goggle strap, or god forbid, dehydration! |
To think of all that money I've 'wasted' on insurance over the years. A guy in my group last week was helicopter off the mountain by Italian mountain rescue. He had insurance. Lucky really, because the bill would have been at least 15k.
Rucksacks, yeah i carry one. Nothing of any importance it it though, just first aid kit, shovel, probe, spare gloves, extra layer, water and a bit of food.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| foxtrotzulu wrote: |
I'm not sure if it's the fact that we don't really have mountains or extreme weather in the UK
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Extreme weather - yes, we do get very high winds and plenty of rain, but you have to be pretty unlucky to be in a position of getting sunstroke, frostbite, hypothermia etc. yes, you CAN get all of those, but as a nation we have pretty benign weather. It's seldom going to kill you on its own.
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Maybe not in Berkshire, but, you may want to be sitting down for this, there are parts of the UK that are North of Berkshire, and some of them are a long way north, and some of them have bits of ground that go quite a way above sea level. And yes, the weather in some of those places can kill you all on its very own.
I spent an uncomfortable night once stuck at Glenshee driving a minibus party, there were about 2000 others stuck too. When we came to drive away 24 hours later it was through snow tunnels 15 foot high in places. There were quite a few cars nearly completely buried in the car park... If we'd not had somewhere to hide from it I am sure that weather could have killed us.
If you don't believe me that we have mountains AND weather follow this group for a while: https://www.facebook.com/groups/345833125602252/
Nothing to do with rucksacks, but I do hate it when someone on the internet is very very very wrong 
Last edited by And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports. on Thu 4-02-16 10:40; edited 1 time in total
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| andyrew wrote: |
| foxtrotzulu wrote: |
I'm not sure if it's the fact that we don't really have mountains or extreme weather in the UK
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Extreme weather - yes, we do get very high winds and plenty of rain, but you have to be pretty unlucky to be in a position of getting sunstroke, frostbite, hypothermia etc. yes, you CAN get all of those, but as a nation we have pretty benign weather. It's seldom going to kill you on its own.
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Maybe not in Hampshire, but, you may want to be sitting down for this, there are parts of the UK that are North of Berkshire, and some of them are a long way north, and some of them have bits of ground that go quite a way above sea level. And yes, the weather in some of those places can kill you all on its very own. |
That's nothing, Foxtrot grew up on the mean streets of Old Windsor. By the age of 12 he already had three fines outstanding for overdue library books.
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You know it makes sense.
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| Gerry wrote: |
That's nothing, Foxtrot grew up on the mean streets of Old Windsor. By the age of 12 he already had three fines outstanding for overdue library books. |
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@andyrew, Will you just read my paragraph again? I clearly said that you have to be 'unlucky' and that it CAN happen. I made it blindingly, painfully obvious that it can happen. FFS I even put it in capital letters. Where exactly was I 'very, very, very wrong'?
In addition, my point was that most British skiers do NOT spend their time on top of Ben Nevis in a snowstorm and consequently tend to over-compensate in an unfamiliar environment.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| welshskier wrote: |
| @foxtrotzulu, and if I move my pack to the front when I get on chairs? |
Then you reduce the risk. But you increase the faffing about at either end. Of course, rather than moving your backpack to reduce the risk that you've just increased by taking the backpack to reduce the risk posed by dropping a glove you could just get a piece of elastic that attaches the gloves to your wrists or each other. Or, just not to take your gloves off on a chairlift.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@Gerry, If you need to take shovel, probe, first aid kit etc. then you are clearly going off piste and as such you need a rucksack. As I've always said.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| foxtrotzulu wrote: |
| @Gerry, If you need to take shovel, probe, first aid kit etc. then you are clearly going off piste and as such you need a rucksack. As I've always said. |
So I don't need first aid kit, water, spare gloves, food or another layer on-piste?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@Gerry,
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So I don't need first aid kit, water, spare gloves, food or another layer on-piste?
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No, you don't. First aid kit available at lifts and what could you possibly have in your first aid kit that won't wait 10 minutes for someone to get help? Emergency tracheotomy kit? Defibrillator? The best first aid kit you can have with you is a phone. Water/food available at restaurants. If you really need emergency food then a flapjack will happily fit in a pocket (see long-winded discussion above). Spare gloves not remotely necessary. (Do you carry spare socks, undepants, helmet etc.? See discussion above) - Another layer might be nice to have, but c.90% of skiers seem to manage OK without. I do. Certainly not something you need.
Just to repeat, you welcome to take whatever you want (including Michelle), but ask yourself just how much do you actually need it? If you are off-piste/having a picnic/have a particular medical condition then of course you need one. Otherwise....?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| foxtrotzulu wrote: |
@Gerry,
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So I don't need first aid kit, water, spare gloves, food or another layer on-piste?
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No, you don't. First aid kit available at lifts and what could you possibly have in your first aid kit that won't wait 10 minutes for someone to get help? Emergency tracheotomy kit? Defibrillator? The best first aid kit you can have with you is a phone. Water/food available at restaurants. If you really need emergency food then a flapjack will happily fit in a pocket (see long-winded discussion above). Spare gloves not remotely necessary. (Do you carry spare socks, undepants, helmet etc.? See discussion above) - Another layer might be nice to have, but c.90% of skiers seem to manage OK without. I do. Certainly not something you need.
Just to repeat, you welcome to take whatever you want (including Michelle), but ask yourself just how much do you actually need it? If you are off-piste/having a picnic/have a particular medical condition then of course you need one. Otherwise....? |
You really don't know what you're talking about. 10 minutes can be a long, long time for some casualties. 90% of skiers don't need to add or remove a layer? You did a survey? And then you add the llogical fallacy of spare underpants and helmets.
I do a BASP first aid course every 3-years, is that unnecessary as well?
Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Thu 4-02-16 13:04; edited 4 times in total
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Quote: |
First aid kit available at lifts
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Not always. I was surprised to find there wasn't one available last April in Val D'Isere when a mate skiing without gloves cut his hand quite badly on an icy piste. That's the only time I've seen anyone have cause to ask for one though so no idea if they're normally available or not or if it depends on the resort.
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| Gerry wrote: |
| I do a BASP first aid course every 3-years, is that unnecessary as well? |
I don't know... how many people did you save already?  But seriously... yes you need first aid kit, with defibrillator (like someone was asking in one other thread), then you need also full avi kit, as sometimes avalanches come all the way down to controlled ski course, then of course you need spare skis, spare boots, not to mention spare helmet, and just in case if gondola breaks, also rope and climbing gear to get off the gondola hanging 30m in the air.
I mean really... if you consider all the possible options that can go wrong, then you don't need backpack, but truck with big trailer.. not sure how you will fit it on chairlift, but would look cool for sure
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| primoz wrote: |
| Gerry wrote: |
| I do a BASP first aid course every 3-years, is that unnecessary as well? |
I don't know... how many people did you save already? But seriously... yes you need first aid kit, with defibrillator (like someone was asking in one other thread), then you need also full avi kit, as sometimes avalanches come all the way down to controlled ski course, then of course you need spare skis, spare boots, not to mention spare helmet, and just in case if gondola breaks, also rope and climbing gear to get off the gondola hanging 30m in the air.
I mean really... if you consider all the possible options that can go wrong, then you don't need backpack, but truck with big trailer.. not sure how you will fit it on chairlift, but would look cool for sure |
And all you have are debating fallacies. Because I don't need to carry spare boots and skis, I shouldn't carry spare gloves either? Because I don't carry a defibrillator, I don't need to know how to deal with a heat attack as a first responder?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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In my rucksack I carry my 2l water hydration pack, a spare layer (and yes, I've sometimes needed it) and suncream. I sometimes carry my sunglasses and/or a spare pair of gloves. My rucksack doesn't cause me any issues and wasn't even commented on when I had lessons a couple of weeks ago.
I also like that my rucksack has a section for strapping my helmet onto so I don't have to wear it when walking around resort or on ski buses.
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I don't always need to carry a backpack, I just do so to infuriate @foxtrotzulu 
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FAQ
