Is Ischgl open to traffic yet? Today's Telegraph says there are 1,000 British skiers who have been stuck there since last weekend when they were supposed to be going home.
I feel SOOO sorry for the poor dears, what a TERRIBLE place for a skier to be 'stuck!'
I'm just grumpy 'cos I wish I was stuck in Austria, damn you super efficient Innsbruck airport snow clearing staff - you'd think 30cms overnight would have been enough!!
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Ischgl roads are open.
St Anton and Lech getting icy and cruddy in parts.
More snow will be needed soon.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Any locals know if the train line from Innsbruck will be open tomorrow? Earlier comments on this thread suggested it would but the OBB site says it's still shut and neither mine nor Google's German can make head or tail of what if anything it says about it reopening:
Die ARLBERGBAHN bleibt zwischen Landeck und Bludenz wegen akuter Lawinensituation weiterhin bis vstl. 12.01.2012, 12:00 Uhr gesperrt !
Ein SCHIENENERSATZVERKEHR mit Autobussen wurde zwischen LANDECK (Tirol) und BLUDENZ (Vorarlberg) eingerichtet.
(die Busse halten grundsätzlich am Bahnhofsvorplatz - mit strassenverkehrsseitigen Verspätungen ist zu rechnen)
Does this mean that it'll reopen at 12pm tomorrow, or they'll give a new update at 12pm tomorrow, or something else?
During the acute avalanche situation(period) the Railway
Between Landeck & Bludenz until 12.01.2012, 12:00hrs
will remain Closed.
A replacement bus service will operate between Landeck & Bludenz stopping
In front of stations. Depending on the road conditions(traffic) delays are expected.
_________
I wouldn't worry the Austrians are very good at providing public
Services, over the years I have had many incidents where replacement
Transport just appears & you jump on!
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Thanks for the tips folks, I'll try and convince der Bruder to slow down in the car.
Re Ischgl / St Anton I was more thinking along the line of whether 2m extra snow depth in St Anton is going to make a difference. To be honest I don't think it will. I just think St Anton is kind of regarded as being on the off piste circuit as one of the better places to go, so somewhere like Ischgl will get tracked out slower than it. I reckon we'll just ski Ischgl, which has more than enough skiing for the three days we've booked and then if we've gotten bored hit St Anton on the way back.
Very disappointed to hear its already converting to crud, but I suppose what do I expect with rising temperatures. You obv have to be ther ethe day after a snow fall or not at all.
Would be interested in Sonnenkopf but they don't even seem to have an English website? (and I have reasonable german so that doesn't bother me in principle but...)
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Whitegold, Looking at the longterm chart a big low pressure is moving in around the 24/25th. If it lands it will be stormy and the alps should have a lot more snow,its probably a bit too early to say for sure.
After all it is free
After all it is free
Re. Fresh Powder in St Anton.
There are so many good/expert skiers/borders based in St Anton
Even though the off piste is huge your find once a lift gets opened the fresh snow is tracked out in one morning.
You have to be here when it dumps!
Even the renowned off piste routes get tracked out within 1 or 2 days.
The only way your find fresh otherwise is to hike right out of the area into the backcountry & for
that full safety & high level experience is required & guide is recommended.
Sonnenkopf is a day area. Great little place with long descents. Once again the best here is out of the area!
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stanton, how much you reckon tomorrow then, 20cms or less.
Luckily got Graham Austick guiding us next week so hopefully should still find some good stuff....
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Interesting avalanche bulletin today - the risk is higher *below* 2400m (3 as opposed to 2). There is also a very clear warning about full depth slides on grassy slopes and skiing below glide cracks. I assume this is due to the recent mild weather making this kind of slide more likely due to free water running under the snow pack. I have seen similar risks reported in France, and presumably the risk will exist all over the alps. I think this is pretty unusual for the time of year, and unfortunately it looks like it will be a risk that does not go away except when a slope actually slides. Even when temperatures drop the ground is so well insulated it will stay warm (relatively speaking). Apart from that they seem pretty positive about the snow pack.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
sah, basically stay off anything steep, grassy and southish facing...
maybe the coming cold temps might firm this up these glide cracks. any how these slopes are probably not making for the best skiing as will have been baked/frozen.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
sah, that risk has I believe been there all season. The sudden onset of winter following a very mild autumn meant the snow blanket was lain on top of relatively mild ground.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
nozawaonsen wrote:
sah, that risk has I believe been there all season. The sudden onset of winter following a very mild autumn meant the snow blanket was lain on top of relatively mild ground.
Agreed, saw a few slab creep slides in Les Arcs over Christmas. South facing around 2,300m.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
nozawaonsen wrote:
sah, that risk has I believe been there all season. The sudden onset of winter following a very mild autumn meant the snow blanket was lain on top of relatively mild ground.
It has indeed. The "inversion" of the risk is something unusual though (for January), and although the glide risk is common this season I don't remember seeing it before at this time of year. The emphasis on glide cracks is also fairly new - I think in the past they were thought to be fairly benign, whereas now they are seen as a sign of latent instability.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
sah, the glide cracks have been bring emphasised pretty much all season.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
norris wrote:
sah, basically stay off anything steep, grassy and southish facing...
Aspect is no indicator I'm afraid, the report shows all aspects as level 3. I don't think it's just sun warming, as it would be in the spring. Steep is certainly worse, but glides can happen at pretty low angles.
Quote:
maybe the coming cold temps might firm this up these glide cracks. any how these slopes are probably not making for the best skiing as will have been baked/frozen.
The problem will come when there's a nice layer of powder on top of this stuff (or on slopes below it)...
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
sah, the glide cracks have been bring emphasised pretty much all season. I can remember a thread rob@rar's? A few weeks back
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
nozawaonsen wrote:
I can remember a thread rob@rar's? A few weeks back
sah, that risk has I believe been there all season. The sudden onset of winter following a very mild autumn meant the snow blanket was lain on top of relatively mild ground.
Yes Correct & will remain the whole season. Water is flowing under the snowpack.
The Avi level maybe posted 3 (natural slides) in general for the Tirol but overall it is still dangerous.
A slide could be triggered at anytime by a skier, border. Sorry this is the situation in reality.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
As the Arlberg stretches across Two (Tirol, Voralberg) Federal States .
sah, the glide cracks have been bring emphasised pretty much all season. I can remember a thread rob@rar's? A few weeks back
Yes, I know, that's why I said "the glide risk is common this season"
When I said the emphasis on glide crack is new I meant that a few years ago I think there were seen as less serious[*], but more recently (the last few years I think) they have been regarded as more of a danger indicator. I forget where I read this - I think it was on the Tirol Lawine blog but it may have been somewhere else (I've been reading up in preparation for an AIARE course this weekend ). I certainly remember hearing people use the faulty reasoning that the crack shows the slope has already moved so it won't move anymore. These days the opposite view is taken - glide cracks mean it *can* move some more. Certainly the Tirol bulletins and blog have been very consistent about the risk all season.
My point about the bulletin for the tirol is that it is showing the danger level at lower altitudes is higher than the risk higher up. The lower slopes were danger level 2 in early Jan, but have been at 3 for several days, where as the upper slopes have been at 4 and are now down to 2.
I didn't mean to cause any confusion, apologies if I did. I'm just pointing out something that [i think] is quite unusual in most years.
EDIT:
[*] E.g. a quote from Tremper (which seems to be a very good book): "The presence of glide cracks in the snow does not necessarily mean danger". I think at the moment in the alps this is not the case, they do mean danger. He does go on to say "Occassionaly they can release catastrophically as a glide avalanche.". So, that's clear then
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
@sah: Yes we've seen lots of glide cracks releasing into avalanches, some very big, here in the St Anton area. This is different from the French alps where glide cracks don't usually mean danger.
At St Anton we've seen at least 2 big glide cracks releasing!
All off-piste skiers should check this site around 7:45 in the morning before going out!
As to general conditions, the creamy delicious powder is tracking out fast and souther exposed faces are frosting over. There was still loads of pow to be had in the trees at Stuben this morning. It seems like all the faces with solar exposure are cooked...
Ciao,
Bob
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WHy the difference between France and Austria in relation to glide cracks?
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Quote:
WHy the difference between France and Austria in relation to glide cracks?
I don't know for sure but some guesses are:
- lower altitutde/higher temps in AT
- different grass conditions under the snow?
- heavier/moister snow in AT?
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
gratefulfrog, I don't think that stacks up. You can certainly say that in different conditions snow behaves in different ways. But the threat of full depth slides is also prevalent in France this year (and glide cracks are one of the warning signs in these conditions). Primarily because of the way the snow pack has developed this year. Austria does not have higher temperatures than elsewhere in the Alps.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
If "glide cracks" are a sort of deep crevasse with grass at the bottom, we've had a lot on the steep, south-facing, slope under our local chairlift this year. And some big slides when whole chunks have subsequently slid down the mountain, leaving bare grass/earth with a wall of snow at the top. It's been interesting watching them develop.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Are the full depth glides a result of the weakest interface in the snowpack being between the ground and the snow at the moment. Normally there would be other potential weak layers within the snowpack but as the snow came down in more or less one dump the snowpack it's self is quite consistent. I know this is a huge and simplified generalisation but may be the case on the lower grassy slopes where the glides are being seen. Can't really see why in France a glide would indicate something different than in Austria. I've certainly read that glides don't imply imminent avalanche release but that view seems to be in question. I'm off on a small ski tour this morning, near Schladming where I've not noticed any glides, and will cross some low altitude grassy meadows, if I have time I'll dig a pit and look at the snow pack. Somewhere safe of course.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
waynos, the risk of full depth slides does not unfortunately preclude other avalanche risks. The glide cracks are not an indicator of imminent avalanche activity. They are an indicator that the snowpack is under stress. They can increase gradually and then release suddenly. A grassy surface will make it easier to slide.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
nozawaonsen wrote:
A grassy surface will make it easier to slide.
Which is why they are more likely in Austria than France where (big generalisation) it is more likely to be a rough rocky surface than nice damp grass. McClung & Schearer The Avalanche Handbook 1993:
"When water is present at a smooth ground surface such as rock or long grass, the friction is reduced and the rate at which the snow glides increases. Two important mechanisms may promote faster gliding in this case: (1) The snow viscosity near the boundary decreases due to increased water content, thereby allowing easier deforation of the snowpack over the ground roughness obstacles, and (2) water reaching the interface may drown out the small roughness features there so that the snow can move over them virtually unimpeded.
The two mechanisms of promoting fast gliding sometimes combine to reduce friction over a region of the slab tht is probably at least 10 slab thicknesses long and just as wide or wider. When the downslope friction is reduced, the slab is forced to absorb the extra load above (upslope of) the region of reduced friction. The result is often the formation of a *tensile crack (called a glide crack) that starts at the ground and propagates upward at an angle of roughly 90 degrees to the bed surface. Once the tensile crack opens, slab release often occurs quickly, but it is also very common for slab release to occur after the crack has been in place for days or even months. This is in contrast to dry slab avalanches, most of which release quickly once a shear fracture starts. Since these full-depth avalanches are caused by the interaction of water and the group roughness features, they can be very unpredictable.
Glide cracks form readily on convex rolls, on slopes where the ground bed surface roughness changes, and below steps in rock."
[* i.e. the snow at the bottom of the slope wants to go down the mountain as it is lubricated underneath, the snow at the top of the slope wants to stay where it is. Therefore these two parts are pulled apart (in tension) so a crack (a tensile crack) develops.]
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Double post.
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Fri 13-01-12 10:53; edited 1 time in total
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
James the Last, as you say a massive generalisation... The OP was suggesting that glide cracks were less dangerous in France. You are suggesting they may be less common because the surface is sometimes different. Possibly so (though they have grassy pastures in France too) but it wouldn't make the glide cracks (or rather the potential slides) less dangerous on those slopes on which they do occur.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
An Update from Sidney
"So much of the off piste areas are very dangerous at the moment that great care is needed!!"
as the snow came down in more or less one dump the snowpack it's self is quite consistent.
around here (Beaufortain) the snow came down in three distinct big dumps. On the slope I mentioned earlier there were quite big cracks completely obliterated by the next dump - and others which slid, and the grass got covered up. It's a big mess now but it's been interesting for me, knowing nothing about avalanches, watching it over the weeks.
James the Last, French ski slopes are more likely to be grass than rock. There are something like 360 ski resorts in France and only a small minority are rocky.
great pic of the amount of snow on the barriers in Stuben on Sidneys blog!
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
waynos,
Quote:
Are the full depth glides a result of the weakest interface in the snowpack being between the ground and the snow at the moment
Have a look at the video which stanton posted earlier, starting around 1:12 in - looks like v. wet granular snow on the grass when that slide occurred.
With colder weather (large temperature gradient) there will be sublimation of the water-vapour through the snowpack leaving a very unstable granular layer (depth hoar) within the snowpack
Quote:
stanton, said
Even if you do not understand German Pay attention to the end of this News Report as this is the ground situation all over the place.
WHy the difference between France and Austria in relation to glide cracks?
I don't know for sure but some guesses are:
- lower altitutde/higher temps in AT
- different grass conditions under the snow?
- heavier/moister snow in AT?
If anything snow is drier and lighter in Austria, there shouldn't be much temp difference, and there are plenty of rocky and grassy slopes in both Austria and France, so I don't think any of that stacks up enough to support such a potentially dangerous statement!
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kitenski, Saw that earlier on Sydney's blog. I have never seen the snow so high at those barriers. You heading to stuben again this year?
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clarky999, The last big dumps have had a high water content. Someone explained it to me today that the crystals at the lowest levels deform and become rounder and like ball bearings. Hence the glide cracks, especially as this year in many places the base is not frozen to the ground beneath. This is due to the very mild November.
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