 Poster: A snowHead
|
|
jjc, not sure, but given the numbers attempting their tech in Hintertux at the moment I'd say a good few hundred at least.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
beanie1,I recall you posting that info before and although they may be a year old or so i am surprised Alpine isnt the vast majority of members.
ps could you confirm how many BASI members have passed the Eurotest to date?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
I love the fact the there are more ISTD"s than ISIA's! Must be a few people feeling a bit silly after some obviously flawed posts!
| Quote: |
If ISTDs don't have this confidence then isn't it saying the market doesn't really recognise the need for higher qualifications
|
Isn't the fact that all the ski associations in Europe are saying the ISTD is relevant enough. If they though otherwise there would not be this thread.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
jjc james, Not flawed at all, It actually validates what most are arguing here. Judging by the numbers it appears there are a lot of people who look at the huge amount of training and cost to get to ISIA and figure why bother, unless you are cracking onto ISTD it doesnt really stack up. 1 week for an L1 , 2 weeks for an L2 and what 8 more weeks for L3
The ISIAs are either career instructors working towards L4 and will leave that pool or they are old guys who are unlikely to pass the ET and are F***ed 
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
skimottaret,
| Quote: |
ps could you confirm how many BASI members have passed the Eurotest to date?
|
I've asked.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
| jjc james wrote: |
I love the fact the there are more ISTD"s than ISIA's! Must be a few people feeling a bit silly after some obviously flawed posts!
|
Hardly.
As a BASI member I find the fact that there are so few current* ISIA members worrying, and view the number as an unhealthy sign for the association.
It seems to show holding the ISIA qualification on it's own isn't worth the trouble. Anecdotal evidence seems to point to the status of the ISIA qualification seems to be becoming eroded within Europe, with pay and working opportunities decreasing as a result.
I'm certainly questioning whether it's worth it.
* don't forget these are current membership numbers. Presumably a lot more people have passed their ISIA but are no longer members.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Every ISTD is an ISIA to and they have been an ISIA solely at some point.
So in addition to the members that have retired or moved on, there are all the ISTD's that have done the same.
145 ISIA and 298 ISTD is really 443 ISIA's not just 145.
This has affected me before trying to get summer work, I wanted to work for Hemel and they said your too highly qualified we only look for L1's now. I said thats fine I have a 3 L1's so should be perfect for you! Didn't work that way. Just because you move on doesn't mean you loose the qualification you've moved on from. Was a bit put out by that, if your willing to work for the same money as everyone else and be higher qualified they should jump at the chance. Not worry about devaluing a higher qualification.
It works the other way around too.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
skimottaret, i think what James is implying is that a major complaint on here is that BASI are looking after a small % of instructor interests when in fact there are more ISTD's than there are ISIA. You seem dissapointed that in some countries a level 2 is able to do the same job as an ISIA but is this again not proof they are acting in the best interest of the higher % of the membership?
So it now appears to me that the message is you want a smaller % of the membership represented (the current ISIA) at the cost of a larger % of the membership, unless of course you are happy for both level 2 and 1 to be eligible for the jobs?
The benefits of the ISIA were posted in the other thread. I guess it is up to the member to decide if these benefits suit their personal goals. If the goal is to work in France etc with no restrictions then it is clear early on that you will have to reach level 4 and it is unlikey the goal posts are going to be moved for a minority.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
jjc, no dont get me wrong I am definitely not disappointed that L2's have opportunities, it just seems to me that L3's dont have any additional benefits than L2 after all the hard work and courses, unlike L4 which can work wherever without any restrictions. L3 have in effet the same restrictions as L2 and no additional beneft..and in some cases are not wanted by ski schools as they would have to be higher paid than L1 or L2 as James found out..
My point was that BASI has spent loads of effort and time on ISTD recognition and they should now move on to helping L3 and L2's. Again i go back to the Pyramid structure that BASI has signed up to and it makes loads of sense to me...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Quote: |
it just seems to me that L3's dont have any additional benefits than L2 after all the hard work and courses,
|
I currently take lessons with an excellent L2. Will he be putting his prices up when he gets his L3, I wonder?
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
| Quote: |
My point was that BASI has spent loads of effort and time on ISTD recognition and they should now move on to helping L3 and L2's. Again i go back to the Pyramid structure that BASI has signed up to and it makes loads of sense to me...
|
I agree with this, I think they should however not undo the great work they have done. Maybe BASI should focus on building on the already good set up offered to ISIA's in Switzerland.
To me it seems silly to set up a really good system that instructors have built their lives around and then change it about face.
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
| Quote: |
Alpine Level 1 574
SSS/BASI Alpine Level 1 5
Alpine UK Adavanced Instructor 13
Alpine Level 2 2066
Alpine Ski Teacher 95
Alpine Level 3 ISIA 145
Alpine National Ski Teacher 65
Level 4 ISTD 298
TOTAL ALPINE 3261
|
Alpine National Ski Teachers are also ISIA (old grade 1s who have not "upgraded" their qualification to ISTD (by doing EMS and Eurotest). Alpine Ski Teacher are old grade 2s who haven't upgraded to ISIA.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| jjc wrote: |
Why does the ET have no relevance to day to day skiing? What is so different between what you do in a gs turn and what you do in a general piste performance long turn? Why won’t a client benefit more from a ISTD than a ISIA standard instructor at every level? What is a better non subjective test of someone’s skiing ability? Why shouldn’t instructors be expected to be able to make a clean turn and do more than traverse a bumps run? Why shouldn’t we expect a reasonable level when so many achieve it across Europe (I assume your reference to a small % was for British instructors)? Why should we lower the standard for in the grand scheme of things a relatively small group of instructors? What will it achieve for the clients having less qualified and less trained instructors? Why do the ISIA also suggest a GS test if it is so irrelevant to the job? Finally what is the standard of an ISIA and why is it appropriate across the board, why not level 2? |
The ET is excessive because the level is elitist if less than 5% of those certified as competent to instruct achieve a pass (whether the limitation be ability, time, effort or financial). This would not matter but for a pass effectively being required to work freely. Most clients are learning low level skiing and an ISIA can easily perform at a high enough level for pretty well all non-specialist clients, when the average L2 would be found wanting for a significant minority. What matters is an appropriate and justifiable level, not what level is supposedly achieved by those places in Europe where in any case rules are inconsistently applied, the system does not transparently declare their low level instructors and the job protectionism structure is entrenched.
| jjc wrote: |
You say its all about job protectionism and high wages in France but is it not also the £££ that’s the real reason for all these complaints? As it has been mentioned many times there is ample opportunity to work elsewhere as a ski instructor with an ISIA. If France etc have a system that works and is sustainable whilst maintaining such a high standard then why should we expect them to change? Their current system looks after both the instructor (they can have a career) and the client (they recieve quality lessons)
| slikedges wrote: |
The market should decide the premium a customer is prepared to pay for a higher qualified instructor.
|
We all know this wont happen, the ski school will just make a bigger margin on their instructors. The only people to benefit are the ski schools and the instructors on retirement plans, gap years or doing it as a hobby, who dont need a stable income. It certainly wont help the client or anyone who had spent large sums of cash training to do the job. The price of everything else in resort dictates the high price of lessons. |
In respect of prices, I do think that prices for the customer would come down if the skiing level required for mainstream teaching was set across the board at ISIA. I don't think most clients would suffer from significantly poorer quality and those who needed higher level or specialist instruction would have to pay more. Actually, most everyone on this thread has their own particular perfect solution to suit their own particular personal situation! Some just want a small age handicap, some want a big one, some might want the ET to go altogether, some just want to be able to work in France, some want more money/less competition/cheaper instruction etc etc. Some just want to see fair play. This discussion has been around the justification for the ET in its current form and latterly the justification for the privileged employment position of the ISTD level. In balance I don't think they are justified but like anyone else I have sympathies and allegiances and the situation is as it is. I suspect that if certain things had not been too overstated or presented a little too speciously I might have been inclined to have remained more of a spectator.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
| Quote: |
The ET is excessive because the level is elitist if less than 5% of those certified as competent to instruct achieve a pass (whether the limitation be ability, time, effort or financial). This would not matter but for a pass effectively being required to work freely.
|
Remember we are a nation without a decent ski area, i know scotland has been better over the last few years. We will struggle with the ET purely due to time on snow growing up and access to training. It is important to remember that the ET is set up to deal with thousands of French, German, Austrian, and Italian skiers that do have a greater access to snow and training than BASI instructors. It has been decided that the BASI membership have extra help by being able to attend an unlimited number of tests per season.
The ET is designed to work as part of the system for much bigger nations than ours. The test won't change but the BASI membership might, with snowdomes and more kids skiing in clubs it should mean that the number of people passing will start to increase. The amount of training people are doing is going up also, and hopefully the standard of that training is starting to increase. Hopefully at some point we can get near the 40% that the french achieve. It has been mentioned that a large group of members are coming through with the ability to do well. Some older people may think this unfair as they seem to have missed to boat but that may just be the way the cookie crumbles with this one.
Then it comes down to those that have worked hard and got to where they want in the current system. Quite literally thousands of people and their families are currently basing their lives around the way the system works. They can earn the money to be there season after season and supply the area with a quality service.
As i stated earlier Warren Smith has managed to build a massively successful company with his ISIA so whats the problem with the ISIA?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
jjc,
Pedagogy - just means the science of teaching, rarely used in the real world except by academics who want to make themselves sound superior and I've had quite enough of them in my time thanks very much.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
He's back!
Bindingcheck, where you been, we missed you!
No one argues quite like you do!
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
jjc james
| Quote: |
| Remember we are a nation without a decent ski area |
oops James be careful not to alienate us scottish based instructors!
England does not have a decent ski area - perhaps that's what you meant 
Paul
www.TREKnTRAIL.co.uk
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
pfairbrother, But don't forget the Shropshire Hills, skiable for several days this year 
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
|
Bindingcheck, a bit like Krebs cycle then, only ever crops up in the real world when trying to impress the hot young trainee teacher in a junior science class
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
pfairbrother,
In the context of the discussion we are having (places to work) its a fair comment. If I was saying there was no decent skiing then that would be unfair. However i do know that there is not the structure to employ and sustain ski instructors season long, season after season.
No dig at scotland intended. But i don't see it solving the employment situation of the current ISIA's any time soon. Which is what is being discussed here.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
jjc james, goalposts move all the time. This affects older young people who have jumped through hoops that are later no longer required, as much as younger old people who struggled in vain to comply with stringent demands only to find new facilities/techniques/equipment/opportunities etc make the demands more achievable but alas too late for them. I think Warren Smith may be qualfifying/have qualified through IASI now but was unique and unparalleled in his success as an ISIA.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Bindingcheck, Haha thanks, I had googled it already. It is a shame it is not used more regularly. I must say if this thread does not succeed in anything else it is certainly improving my English and my potential Christmas scrabble scores  I am not ashamed to say I have been running most of slikedges posts through a thesaurus.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
| Quote: |
England does not have a decent ski area - perhaps that's what you meant
|
Not since the good old days of High Wycombe. 
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
jjc, was that since you discovered that it wasn't a kind of dinosaur?
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
jjc james,
Such warm welcome back, I'm quite touched.
I've been training and working..... someone has to teach the great unwashed how to make their skis change direction.
Debates, not argues.
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
slikedges,
You have got a long memory, that was more than 11 pages ago.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Bindingcheck, thanx for the compliment but I once knew more than a bit about Krebs cycle so it stuck
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
beanie1,
(also posted on your new topic - BASI statement......)
Can you shed light on who was present at this meeting, ie, which bodies were represented?
Was there any representation from the European Commission or was it solely made up from representatives of European Ski Instructor Nations (and possibly branches of their national government bodies, eg, Jenuesse de Sport)?
Can you request clarification on the reasoning which lead to the ISIA test being dismissed as 'not appropriate'?
The BASI statement makes reference to an EU draft report: I am unable to locate this draft document on Europa.eu. Could BASI provide a link to this draft report or post a copy of this draft report?
Hurtle -
Can you follow up on this, ie. the green paper and the draft report? Not sure if enshrining in legislation that there is only one possible manner to achieve a qualification for all EU citizens is permitted within the Lisbon Treaty. Doesn't seem to fit with the principles of an open market.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
The meeting was chaired by a Dutch or Belgian guy from the EU commission. It was stated first off that the EU would not by using a system put forward by an international body. It was mentioned that this had been attempted by other professions international bodies ( there are thousands of professions under review for a pro card). The solution would come from within Europe with agreement from European nations. There was quite a lot of support for the euro test and euro security. Concept exists (ET) just needs to be run in a fair and consistent way.
My feeling is that the Euro test will form the basis for the professional card for ski instructors.
PSG
Ps. I was not at the meeting however was updated on the phone during the day by our representative who was present (Ireland). We had been invited by the Irish government EU department for recognition of qualifications.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
My fear here is that this new professional card will mean that BASI instructors without it wont be able to work anywhere in europe, apart from in the country of whatever association they are from, ie uk for basi. That way france/austria/italy can keep all their trainee instructors "in-house", and there will be absolutely no chance of the thousands of non-istd basi members moving through the system, who work hard seasons for little money just to pay for exams and get some "on snow" time, ever achieving ISTD status without bankrupting themselves in the process, coz there sure isnt enough work in the snowdomes. If thats the case with the new card, then BASI has let down its members big time. The BASI website deems the ISIA a qualification for working full time in international ski schools.
I believe that it is right to have a level above ISIA, I dont know whether the L4 technical is a sufficient test of a skiers capability or if the eurotest is a better marker or if both are necessary, but they demonstrate a high level of both ability and determination by the candidate and that should rightly be rewarded. But all these istds were once lower level instructors learning their trade in places like austria spain and switzerland, and there needs to be places like that for lower level instructors to work seasons and get up to the required standard, and BASI has a great responsibility towards these instructor (who make up the vast majority for the membership) to ensure their continued acceptance of their qualifications.
As a side point, if the eurocard is adopted, will basi move away from the isia pyramid and drop some of the courses that were added to achieve isia stamp, coz they wont be that necessary for anyone just wanting to work in europe?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
gilleski,
Thanks for taking the time to give an update.
Did the IASI make a submission to the Commission on the Professional Qualifications Directive? We know that BASI did but currently BASI claim that they cannot reveal the content of their submission as it is 'confidential'. (in fact a condition of making the submission is that it can and will be published on the EU portal - not yet though, I have checked)
Agreed about the need to be fair and consistent (which, as it was mentioned, seems to be / have been a concern of some nations) but could I impose on you to enquire if there were any opinions voiced regarding it being an appropriate standard of test for the profession of ski instructing?
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
Bindingcheck, Standard is an issue, remember the standard of Alpine nations will be higher than many brits deem applicable simple because of culture. They like me grew up doing training for the ET. Where i work the kids are out 2-3 times a week skiing gates if they can. Same thing in Italy, Austria and to a lesser extend Germany.
Will be a big ask on basi to have the level lowered, especially with the % difference in pass/fail between French etc and British participants. Their % being substantially higher therefore justifying the current level.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
While I am very aware the Gilleski was the messenger and I resubmit my appreciation of his post, but it should be noted that the EU does accept proposals, submission and standards submitted by International Bodies. Just think about the International Atomic Energy Authority.
The situation is now that the Commission will reflect on the submissions and proposals that it has received, the Commission lawyers will then review the existing Directive and take into account any recent judgements made by the European Court of Justice (ECJ), and then send to the Committee for the Internal Market and Consumer Protection a Green Paper (which in this case will be an amendment to the Professional Qualifications Directive) that outlines what the Commission feels should be the new position of the EU. The Commissioner for Internal Market and Consumer Protection just happens to come from Haute Savoie (Bourg St Maurice), but don't let that depress you too much.
It is indeed a shame that BAI did not inform the membership of its intention to make a submission to the EU Commission in March, I am certain that many members would have welcomed the opportunity to express their opinion to our Association.
I suspect that the long game (which France, Austria and Italy are expert at playing) will lead to a situation not dissimilar to that which Skifluff has outlined in the preceding post.
If you want to make your opinion heard at a political level your only recourse now is to lobby an MEP now - they are the ones who will be able to question any recommendations put forward by the Commission.
The questions are:
If what has been reported is correct how can BASI continue within ISIA?
Does BASI have a long game which is to the best advantage of its membership - not those who are currently ISTD's? (non elected members of the Association may wish to research the qualifications of the Board members)
What exactly is the significance of "The UK delegation will take the lead on a review of test sites." ? A Eurotest can only be conducted on a FIS homologated piste so what is there to review? Unless it could lead to France being forced to drop their illegitimate objection to a nation organising a Eurotest in a resort which is not within their home nation?
Does BASI still have a policy of pursuing training centres for BASI members within the FEMPS nations?
JJC & JJC James plus a couple of others - We are quite a bit away from the "Is the Eurotest a good thing or not" debate. (temporarily) But hopefully you can see that the past 2 or 3 posts are indicating a increasingly greasy pole that is looming for anyone who does not currently have a ISTD. The implications are 'If aspirant ski instructors can't get the work / experience / on the job training without entering the FEMPS nations systems, how will people be able to progress up to ISTD?' And 'What will be the point of BASI?'
Hurtle - Where are you when we need you?
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
If it ain't broke, don't fix it!
I'll make a few calls tomorrow and see whats going on.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
jjc james,
With you to an extent and I do appreciate that, in general, the standard of non recreational skier is much higher in the Alpine nations.
You might want to consider the basis for your percentages. While it is a statistical fact that a greater percentage of the French, as an example, who take the Eurotest are successful, (compared to the Lowlanders) the statistic of the 'French who take the test' is already a loaded statistic.
What does that mean? Well in the French system those who actually take the test have already been 'selected', the stagieres who are not good enough will have already been 're-directed', culled is too strong a word. Plus, as you are aware, in order to become a stagiere you had to go through a selection process. The Lowlanders and the Antipodeans don't have this weeding out process consequently anyone (almost) can enter a Eurotest and this skews the statistics.
Agree about the kids racing 2/3 times aweek, but are they doing it because they want to be an instructor or is it because they want to be a racer?
Agree that 'lowering' the standard will be a big ask. But is the standard set to keep the number of passes low or is the standard set because that is the absolute minimum required to work as a ski instructor? Would 1 or 2 percent really be that much of a difference to a ski instructors ability to do his/her job. If the time really is that important perhaps there should be a super ISTD or a génial Diplomé for candidates who manage to complete the Eurotest within 10% of the 'time'.
Remember that there never has been a justification in law that "this is the minimum standard required to be a ski instructor".
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
skifluff, That was my interpretation of the possible outcome too.
Bindingcheck, Good questions. I also wondered, how the BASI \ ISIA link could continue.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
The fact that a bunch of Alpine kids throw themselves down hills thrice a week from year dot and therefore more of them can hit a mark of dubious relevance is of no consequence to anything other than having to set an artificially high bar to stop more people falling into the occupation. Though even I think that a timed GS of a more appropriate level is relevant and indispensable I was only half-joking about what a rate-limiting "Eurotest" for instructors should really entail - not racing but advanced pedagogy.
As an aside, where's that glut of ex-racers in Austria? I see a lot of Anwarters who are weaker skiers than most level 2s. Why is there room for them if there're all these ex-racers queueing up?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
That's because with their current sytem there is not a attractive career in austria. Same as america they all become ski coaches or look for a completely different career so they can make a decent income.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
FAQ
