Changes to SCGB Reps' Off-Piste Rules

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David Goldsmith, As a lawyer, I absolutely agree with all of your first (main) paragraph. As to the definition of 'in-bounds' in North America, there is no reason why those words could not be incorporated into relevant insurance policies: it appears (from what I have read, I have no on-the-spot knowledge) that this is an easily definable concept, so if the specific issue is whether the skiers were in-bounds or out-of-bounds, then that issue alone can presumably be resolved without difficulty. But, as I think most posters agree - even though this is a pessimistic and dismal scenario, one which perhaps we shouldn't be losing too much sleep over, lest it put us off skiing altogether - liability can sometimes attach to a third party irrespective of the location of the accident.

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David Goldsmith, ..."As a lawyer, I absolutely agree..." and that'll be £450 plus VAT and disbursements, thanks very much.

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Swiller, I see your disbursements include a month's research in St Anton, Chamonix, Jackson Hole and your new ski wig. Very reasonable. I'm writing out a cheque for £5450 as I type.
How do you find the wig on the slopes?

After all it is free

David Goldsmith, snowHead

keep it up...

Bode Swiller, Bog OFF. I gave up private practice some time ago, not least because I got seriously fed up with fending off comments like that. What I do as a lawyer now is so poorly paid it is pretty much pro bono. Skullie

David Goldsmith, Laughing

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admin, And you too (there, that's two for one seen off.) Twisted Evil

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Have any of the snowheads who have posted on this tread never skied off piste without an instructor or guide or accompangiateur (or anyone else who was- officially in charge and geting paid)?

If not- why worry about SCGB members skiing off piste with reps?

It is very kind harted of you to worry about our safety - but I have a horrid feeling that you all duck under ropes whenever the feeling takes you- using your jungement, alone, with mates, with a guy you just met on a ski lift. I certainly do.

So really why the worry about SCGB- is it the cravats - or is there some sordid sexual motive?? I'm guessing now- but a tasty rep who's pants you just couldn't get into?? A horsey upper class gal who would not give you a knee trembler round the back of Dick's T bar??

We must be told!!

edsilva, I do not ski off-piste alone (usually stupid, even for experts) I do not ski off-piste with mates unless I know and trust them, I have skied off-piste with a Ski Club rep because I trusted him. I have a strong feeling that, if I met you on a ski lift, I would not ski off-piste with you. I am not particularly worried about the SCGB - and would guess that most of the posters on this thread, SCGB members included, do not lose a great deal of sleep worrying about the health of the Club - that isn't, largely, what this thread is about. Nor is the thread about the safety of people skiing with reps, it's about insurable risks and also about the fact that, soon, there probably won't be any reps to ski with anyway, at least off-piste. Some people enjoy skiing with the reps; I'm not sure that the majority do this because they fancy them, but no doubt someone will correct if I'm wrong about that.

You talk about 'our safety' from which I infer you are a Club member. If so, why?

In short, what are you getting at?

You know it makes sense.

With regard to "A horsey upper class gal who would give you a knee trembler round the back of Dick's T bar", by strange coincidence, I heard a story just the other day... but no, I expect I'd get into trouble if I told Wink

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

For a start I am being flippant. This is an internet thread - not real life.

There's off piste and not so off piste- and there really is a difference- the pregnancy analogy is odd.

In Europe most resorts mark trails and those are the pistes, groomed or not. Away from this is off piste- be it under the lifts, from 1 piste to another , bowls to the side or way out the back- regardless of the avalanche control.

In North America they seem to have a much better arrangement, with inbounds and out of bounds areas. Inbounds- the ski area, controlled- skiable but hopefully with (empty) acres of ungroomed, as well as bashed pistes. Perhaps Baquera is going to / has this arrangement.

In my experience the SCGB skis the type of off piste which would be inbounds in NA. I think this is reasonable.

Off piste alone- well even crossing off the side of a piste by 30cm into some fresh in Europe is off piste- everyone does this (really they do- Hurtle- I'm sure you do- say you don't) cutting any corner beyond a piste marker is this. Likewise I would happily ski stable snow near the pistes (sight and sound) with lots of people (friends aquaintances- you I'm sure - I bet we'd have a great time). There is a big difference however in remote, uncontrolled off piste- eg Cugnai etc in Val D'Isere- which I wouldn't dream of doing alone- but would do with a guide.

Considering skiing is a sport with obvious risks it is odd that people get so upset about others taking more risks that them. Part of this thread is about that. When I was younger/fitter/lighter I was a reasonably active climber- every climber I have ever known is happy to solo within his capabilities (that is climb without a rope). Lots of hill walkers go scrambling- basically a walk where you have to use your hands but shouldn't really be able to fall off. But some sadly do have accidents, just like the many who get lost/ fall off etc sticking to the regular paths. But there would never be this sort of discussion about whether or not it is ok for a club to go scrambling / climbing etc without a 'fully qualified person' regardless of the outcome. This practice goes unchallenged when practiced by the Eagle Ski Club an dth eAlpine Ski club (although I think to even be in th Alpine Ski Club you have to have at least skied across Greenland blindfold & backwards)

I really do not understand the mentality which demands that others stick to a set of imaginary rules (which I'm really sure nobody posting here keeps to).

Maybe I'm wrong but I think that much of the thread goes; SCGB reps ski off piste with SCGB members, SCGB reps are not guides/ instructors/(as good as I think I am), people should only go off piste with guides/instructors (for different reasons- and really I don't think that the insurance / liability issue is at the heart of peoples ranting)- therefore IT SHOULD BE BANNED. Alot of the posts are about wanting to control what other people do - why?? Really- possibly because the posters feel like winding people up (why not?) - possibly because they feel out of control themselves in their own lives- I don't know- but really that posters who haven't skied with reps and who I'm sure themselves ski off piste (as strictly defined) all the time should want to rant and rave about this says far more about them (parsimony / obsessionality) than anything else.

Perhaps it's about not liking clubs, perhaps they don't get on well with other people in real life and spend too much time pontificating in cyberspace, perhaps it is the rather odd image of the SCGB, perhaps some sort of sordid sexual jealousy- which is at the root of quite a lot of problems I can tell you- that's my favourite and I'm sticking to it.

wink

A snowHead

Hurtle, hand on heart now- say you have never ever skied between 2 pistes alone. Not even a little bit

A snowHead

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

edsilva, There are some posters here who may not necessarily wish the clubs repping service well, but the issue actually is simply about the Club's liability to negligence and other legal claims, and very little more than that. I agree with a lot of what you say about a common sense approach, but because the club has assets it is a target for legal action and has to act with due diligence. As a Ski Club member, I am however pleased to learn that the motives of some who disagree with me may by sordid sexual jealousy on their part... wink

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edsilva, Yes, I have skied between pistes on my own. There are obviously different levels of risk and the sport is equally obviously not risk-free at any level. But I'm afraid I must continue to disagree with you about what this thread is about - it's mostly by and about people who WANT to ski off-piste (properly, not just poddling about at the side of the piste) not people who want it BANNED. As stoatsbrother says, the main issue is one of liability when and if something goes wrong, given that insurers tend not to take the - perfectly justifiable - laid-back approach that you do. Simple as that - people want to ski off-piste, insurers don't want to cover them, except in very specific and restrictive ways. Where you've gleaned all this stuff about banning, ranting, raving and controlling, I simply don't know. I suspect it may reflect one or more obsessions of yours, rather than of other posters on this thread.

PS I have met one or two quite fanciable reps in my time. wink

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Ha! I knew it! I'm too sexy for my (SCGB) shirt! Laughing

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edsilva, perhaps you need to re-read the thread. The raison d'etre is that the Club is, possibly, curtailling some of the Reps' off piste leading - an action apparently prompted by possible legal action being taken following a fatal accident in Switzerland - not that members want the repping to be changed - apart from DG of course.

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edsilva, I was largely introduced to off piste by skiing with reps long ago. I valued that and am still a member (largely for the holidays since I no longer ski with reps, except ocasionally on their rest day).
I think the main contact of most members with the club is the reps and the thing which distinguishes Reps from Package Company ski hosts is the off-piste. I believe substantial cutting of the reps' mandate off piste would damage the club by causing a long term reduction in membership and good candidates for the Reps.

And yes, I ski off piste with friends - and probably ski a few things the Reps might not. We take group responsibility for what we do, but I am now worried the police might take another view if one person knew the resort better than others.

After all it is free

what do these changes actually mean in practice??

From the reps I have spoken to / skied with the amount and nature of the off piste they have skied depends very much on the resort. So in the plusher resorts of Switzerland, with a very traditional SCGB membership (who really do turn up for drinks in cravats and pearl necklaces - not always worn together) off piste skiing may almost never happen. But in Val D'Isere, Verbier, Argentiere there is alot of off piste skiing- but in the many groups I have skid with this has been very much 'Inbounds'. By this I mean between pistes, easily accessible, no route finding problems, mostly visible from the pistes/ lifts, not threatened by uncontrolled slopes ( this bit is important)- but obviously with some hazards that don't exist on the piste- increased risk of slides, unmarked obstacles, terrain traps etc- but far less likely to get wiped out by some prat skiing out of control- which happens alot. The reps have very rarely if ever gone 'over the back' onto slopes with different characters - for example Grand Vallon in Val D'Isere - although easily accessible would be totally out- also Cugnai, etc, and that is when skiing with SCGB groups almost entirely composed of Val D'Isere seasonaires, with the remainder being strong skiers with really quite a lot of off piste experience. To do that they get a guide for the day. I think that this is a reasonable common sense approach. If some reps have been skiing a different type of terrain (lets call it Outbounds) and if that is why there is this change in wording then that actually might be OK. I don't think that the groups are strong enough to collectively tackle those sorts of routes without a 'leader'.

With TO reps even a foray into some fresh snow an inch from the piste is off limits.

so- having explained why I think what the SCGB does is reasonable, and why it just might be the case that some reps have been unreasonable and how firming that up might not be a bad thing I'm still convinced that some of the posters are making a point about something else- which says more about them than the topic.

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Hi all, followed a link from the SCGB board to this thread.

edsilva, I've skied with lots of reps too - especially in Val d'Isere - and what you say is true, all the serious stuff I did there was with a TopSki guide arranged by the rep. You could well be right that this change has come about as a way of reining in some reps who have been getting a bit too bold. So in that sense it's not really a change for the majority of members and reps alike.

I myself have witnessed members demanding to be taken here there and everywhere by the rep, only to bitch and moan when they've been turned down. They would then say that so and so had taken them there the season before. The rep would then make the point that they shouldn't have gone to where ever it was.

It's also been my observation that the most demanding members have actually been rather poor skiers, with technique seemingly based more on survival rather than skill. They would also be devoid of any real mountain craft. So in a very real sense, the reps had a real primary duty of care to them.

But I must say that I have been privileged to ski with some very good skiers over the years, who have also been great company and have gone on to be lifelong friends.

I'd like to see members keeping a log of their off-piste activities - bit like RYA does for chaps/gals who sail - so the reps can look at comments from other reps and guides about any particular member, just like a skipper would for an unkown comp crew. I'd also like to see the club handing out certificates of competence for transceiver use, as well as mountain craft in general.

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Welcome to snowHeads PJSki

Nice entrance Wink

edsilva, I am surprised that you say reps wouldn't go to Grand Vallon and Cugnai now, they certainly used to. This shows how the remit for Reps has already narrowed.

I certainly skied much more dangerous places than those with reps and (especially) party leaders - who are reps in another mode. The stairway to Heaven and Chardonay (at Tignes) were routine, and much hairier than that on occasions (veterans of the wonderful and wildly popular "Hotshots" holidays will have memories).

You know it makes sense.

snowball, the not so's, as they were rather unkindly known in some parts?

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

A snowHead

snowball, I think that skiing places like Grand Vallon and Cugnai with a random selection of SCGB members just met that morning really would be a bit of a problem- and I'm supposed to be the irresponsible one here!

Both are properly off piste and not at all avalanche controlled (as opposed say to Grand Mur in Argentiere- head down point de vue- turn left under the catex). Whilst some groups would manage the skiing without problem I'm not at all sure that the whole group would be able to ski these without being led and really relying on the rep not just for route finding and selection but also their basic safety. Many groups I've skied with would contain some members who would really struggle with both the skiing and not be able to look after themselves. These sorts of route are committing- once you've started that's it- if one member is in trouble with technique or fitness then there is no easy way out.

Party leaders on SCGB holidays are in a bit of a different position in that the abilities of the group should be more consistent.

PJski- do we know each other?? Puzzled

A snowHead

In fairness to edsilva there was quite a lot of stuff on this thread along the lines of "there's no such thing as a little off piste"/"if you go off piste with someone who doesn't have a badge YOU WILL DIE" before it reached what appears to be an equilibrium of chat about liability insurance

interestingly, i met a few Alpine Ski Club people last week and got the impression that "back in the day" the SCGB rep's course was quite a respectable thing to have even amongst such august company as the ASC

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

(sorry, double post)

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You'll find the answer to that question on p.14 of the accounts, though I don't think it's a current valuation (since it's unchanged from 2006).

The carpet-bagging (piste-bagging?) strategy you suggest is a real no-no, in my view. There's a job to be done.

After all it is free

achilles,

David Goldsmith, I'd really like to say that I have treasured the accounts, and kept them carefully as a thing of joy. I haven't. What's the value? Can't see the Club has any 'job' at all if the rep system folds. Holidays are available elsewhere, I for one don't insure with them, S&B is good, but many snowheads seem to prefer Fall Line (never read it myself). Skiing promotes itself perfectly well without the Club - arguably less popularity would mean less pollution anyway. As for the web site - well, there's a rival called snowheads which seems to be doing OK. And hasn't banned you. Yet. Nope. No off-piste repping, no point.

Hmm. Lets have a look at an office property for sale there. Ooo. I wonder of the White house is worht as much as £2million. Let's say it is. So that's £2 million/30,000 - roughly. Um that's, let me see, £67. Oh. Don't think I'll bother then. Just get out if the repping's down the pan.

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boredsurfin, I think the property is owned freehold - it was bought with the proceeds of the Eaton Square club house sale.

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Changes to SCGB Reps' Off-Piste Rules

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