 Poster: A snowHead
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Hang on ...
We're talking about probably the best racing driver the world has ever seen here ...
and we expect him to ski like a nanny?
I don't think so .. he's only 45 now ... he's still going to be a pumped up testosterone laden adrenaline junkie who wants thrills in the fast lane !
Off course he's going to do things that most of think of as stupid.
But because of this incident more people will wear helmets ...
That means he has made a safer world.
if a bit more boring.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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DrLawn, last version I heard was the "pumped up testosterone laden adrenaline junkie who wants thrills in the fast lane" was rocking at 20kph at the time of the accident.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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DrLawn, the same guy was happy to carry tobacco advertising.
The media hysteria surrounding this accident has made skiing sound highly dangerous. A really bad thing.
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nozawaonsen,
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was rocking at 20kph at the time
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See what I mean?
I've just had a chat with my misses about this ....
So next time I take the Ferrari out I'll wear a helmet
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Bode Swiller wrote: |
| The media hysteria surrounding this accident has made skiing sound highly dangerous. |
I'd agree with that. A catastrophic accident involving a non-incompetent on pretty innocuous terrain ... though it does look like skiing into a rock pool.
Maybe he buys new skis every day, or enjoys searching for shellfish at the seaside.
Joking aside though, the public would view this as a fate that any skier might tempt and experience. So, yes, not the best story for the sport/industry.
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nozawaonsen, What does your name mean ?
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No, do the maths, Swiller. The girls learned to ski when lots of parents put their kids in lids.
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No, CG, they clearly learned when the vast majority did not. My eldest daughter is 22 and did not wear a helmet till recently.
It is time to drop the sensory deprivation angle too as there is little or no effect of a helmet on hearing and no significant effect on peripheral vision - try it for a while and see for yourself - nor has the SCGB had any effect on helmet-wearing.
Wearing a helmet is generally a personal choice when skiing, but compulsory or advisable in some circumstances.
Michael Schumacher is lying in a bed and we pray he recovers. If he had not worn a helmet, he would not be in a hospital.
Let's just wait and see and hope.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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What are the most important attributes in a racing driver, I think...
reaction times
sense of balance
hand eye coordination
I don't know why I'm sharing this with you.
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| beequin wrote: |
It is time to drop the sensory deprivation angle too as there is little or no effect of a helmet on hearing and no significant effect on peripheral vision - try it for a while and see for yourself
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Not certain i agree with you here. Whilst I havent ski'd in every make of ski helmet, I certainly notice a loss of peripheral vision, and an effect on hearing, which means I make more effort than normal to see and look for people around me.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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micky,
reaction times
This is an interesting one, because apparently we all have the same reaction time; pretty much, on average. Elite sportspeople have the same reaction times as the general public. What they possess is the ability to read cues that the general public don't pick up on, ie an elite badminton player can predict where the shuttle is going from fore arm movements, not the shuttlecock itself. This reading of cues is limited to the elite sport in which they are well practiced. So whilst racing drivers may appear to have fast reaction times in racing, due to their cues; this is by no means a given when it comes to other sports
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Whilst there is a lot of boll**** on this thread, and the helmet thing has been discussed many times before, the discussion is made relevant because this is something that could happen to any intermediate skiier "between pistes" though looking at the vid, I suspect I would not have cut this particular corner.
What has come out of this is that if you are going to buy a helmet there are important issues to address;
Protection from rotational forces to the brain (MIPS)
Whether you should have a EPS or EPP helmet
Periferal vision and hearing
Having worn a cheap Giro helmet for a few years, I have found helmets to be no less convenient as a wooly hat, and I am less likely to leave it in a bar or restaurant, because by goggles are attached.
I have had a very detailed reply from POC on the first two points and I suspect that I shall be buying a Receptor Backcountry MIPS, if there are any left!
Ref. hearing, I take the point, but I can always hear snowboards coming up from behing, though I doubt that they can hear me, having iPods plugged into their ears.
I also think that resorts encouraging Folie Douce for apres ski drinking, followed by a long ski home, cannot be taking safety that seriously.
Finally, although I love the Ski Tracks app, I understand youngsters are now intent on clocking the fastest time possible on their phones ... as I see it making the pistes considerably less safe than any lack of balance or periferal vision from wearing a helmet.
Here is the reply from POC, my question related to the suitability of their helmets for reuse after an impact, given the high price;-
"thank you for your request.
Well, of course it always depends on the strength of the impact.
MIPS is a system used to reduce the rotational force to the brain in case of oblique impacts. Accident statistics show that the most common accident occurs in an oblique impact to the head, resulting in a rotation of the head and brain. The brain is more sensitive to oblique impacts than radial impacts.
In a helmet equipped with MIPS technology, a low friction layer separates the shell and the inside of the helmet. When subjected to an oblique impact, the low friction layer allows a small controlled rotation of the shell relative to the lining.
F.e. the Receptor Backcountry MIPS is made of EPP (multi-impact) material, which is also used in car dashboards and it will protect your head over and over again. The Fornix BC MIPS is made of EPS material, which will be permanently compressed, so we recommend to replace it after a severe impact.
Usually, if there's no scratches on the outside of the helmet after a fall, it should be good to go."
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gryphea,
Agree with most of that but not about being limited to the sport they practice. The people who were good at one sport at school were usually very good at other sports. My brother=in-law who was an international rugby player was always better at me at golf and any other sport we did. The people who were in the rugby team at school were also in the cricket team and athletics teams etc etc. I've done very low level motorsport and been reasonable - but you can see the very good people were also the sort of people who would be good at any sport.
There is something about having a combination of hand eye coordination, balance and also the ability to process peripheral events that translates to many sports. When I played rugby I could never really see gaps or people coming at me so just ran straight until someone stopped me. Very good players describe it as bit like everything going into slow motion so they can see all the things happening around them.
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You know it makes sense.
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gryphea, very good call. Yes, body shapes and there use as cues, and the intepretation of these through experiance.
The same thing must apply in motor sport, good wet weather drivers will have had more experiance in those conditions etc....
Glad this thread is back on track, dicussing the real points not just a slanging match.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Who would have thought 20 kph could cause so much damage when wearing a helmet? I see very few people skiing or boarding without a helmet from now on after this headline news story.
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Poster: A snowHead
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JLB, but average speed of a skier on a normal piste is more like 30kmh or more. Helmets are sold as a solution but in reality they are sticking plasters.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Interesting comment from The Guardian.
"A video purporting to show amateur footage of the accident has been circulating on social media, but the clip – titled "Video: Moment de l'accident de Michael Schumacher! (EXCLUSIF)" – contains a computer virus."
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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gryphea, Interesting, what you say. I was tested on a machine, many years ago, that measured reaction time. It may have been at a Motor Show and was run by the AA. You sat in a mock up drivers seat with a VDU in front of you. The screen displayed the rear end of a lorry that you were travelling behind (and too close to). When the lorry braked you had to brake. It then measured your reaction time.
I remember when I did it I focused in my mind that it was a real lorry and that I might die if I didn't brake quick enough.
I think the ability to concentrate would wildly affect the measured reaction time.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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I've just come back from Tesco's and having my first ever trip on a bike wearing a helmet.
I wore my ski helmet, its my wife's electric bike so I get funny looks anyway.
I parked up between the motor cycles and continued chatting to them about the subject we've been going on about here all morning.
Back in the day ... helmets, set belts, Corona bottles, Davy Crockett, etc .....
On the way home .. into the wind .. I decided to put the goggles down as well ... now I felt cool!
All was well till the phone rang and I had to answer it in a helmet trying to hold up a bike with no cross bar ....
The jury is still out.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| sev112 wrote: |
| beequin wrote: |
It is time to drop the sensory deprivation angle too as there is little or no effect of a helmet on hearing and no significant effect on peripheral vision - try it for a while and see for yourself
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Not certain i agree with you here. Whilst I havent ski'd in every make of ski helmet, I certainly notice a loss of peripheral vision, and an effect on hearing, which means I make more effort than normal to see and look for people around me. |
My goggles have far more impact on my peripheral vision than my helmet. If wearing goggles I cannot see the edges of the helmet.
My helmet also has removable ear pads so you can have completely normal hearing if you want. I usually don't unless it's hot because it keeps my ears warm!
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bobmcstuff, exactly.
We ski. Stuff happens. We accept risks. Schumi was very very unlucky. The reaction to his injury has been way OTT.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Quote: |
but average speed of a skier on a normal piste is more like 30kmh or more.
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Highly sceptical that this is true, but it is irrelevant anyway.
PS Not read much of the thread but I take it that it is the usual about helmets.
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Same arguments different names......
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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T Bar, Well, actually it's wrong (speed is typically higher than 30kmh) but not irrelevant - in about 2002-03 a study was done in Vermont by Shealy, Ettlinger, Johnson University of VT and it found (Vermont will differ from Europe but not by much):
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They took 650 speed data points from three resorts (170 in Utah, 278 in New York and 202 in Vermont).
Slopes were chosen to represent typical blue square, wide (30 to 80 m) groomed trails of moderate steepness (16o to 20o).
Used Bushnell Speedster radar speed guns (accuracy +/- 1 mph up to 200 mph).
Measurements were not made on:
– small children, or persons in the process of stopping.
– skiers or snowboarders taking a lesson.
– area employees such as patroller or instructors.
Mean for all observations for all conditions =
43.0 km/h (26.7 m/h); std. dev. = 11.2 km/h
(7.0 m/h); maximum 83.7 km/h (52.0 mph),
• This means 84% in excess of 31.7 km/h (19.7mph), 16% in excess of 54.2 km/h (33.7 mph).
Skiers faster than snowboarders; 3.5 mph
Skiers (44.5 km/h)> Snowboarders (38.9 km/h)
• Helmeted faster than non-helmeted; 3.0 mph
– Yes (45.8 km/h)> No (41.0 km/h)
• Good visibility faster than poor; 5.2mph
– Good (46.7 km/h)> Poor (38.3 km/h)
Males faster than females; 4.0 mph
• Average skiing speeds up by 4.9 mph since
late 1970s,
• Beginner skiers slower than Intermediate
skiers by 6.8 mph,
• Advanced skiers faster than intermediate
skiers by 5.1 mph,
Highest: Helmeted skiers under good
visibility conditions; 50.7 km/h (31.5 mph),
[84% are in excess of 37.7 km/h (23.4 mph), 16% are in
excess of 63.8 km/h (39.6 mph)]
• Lowest: Non-helmeted snowboarders under
poor visibility conditions; 34.5 km/h (21.4
mph)
For the 50 persons who were interviewed it
was found that they were only fair at
accurately estimating their true velocity.
• The estimates on the whole tended to under
estimate their actual speed, and the disparity
increased as speed increased.
Average speed of 43.0 km/h (26.7 mph) under all
conditions well above the design evaluation
criterion of 22.6 km/h (14.0 mph) for helmets.
• The kinetic energy at 43.0 km/h is 3.6 times
greater than 22.6 km/h.
• For the upper 16% of persons on slope, the
kinetic energy is more than 5.8 times greater.
Average helmet user; 25% more KE than
average non-helmet user,
• Average skier; 31% more KE than average
snowboarder,
• Better visibility; KE increases 48%,
• Average male; 62% more KE than female,
• Average helmeted skier; 69% more KE than
average non-helmeted snowboarder. |
There you go, some numbers.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Bode Swiller,
Well it is irrelevant because the speed that someone is travelling at is not really a very good representation of the likely speed of impact of the head ie most impacts are at an angle and not perpendicular to the direction of travel.
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T Bar, there are lots of factors but speed is most definitely a biggie, both in terms of potential to lose control in the first place and terminal head impact speed (oblique or otherwise). If you can't see that then I'm lost.
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You know it makes sense.
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Bode Swiller,
In terms of your overall stance ie ski helmets are pretty much a trivial affair in terms of overall lifetime risks I am pretty much 100% with you.
But although speed is relevant in accidents and head injuries the fact that the average skier skis at a given speed does not of itself make the arguments against helmets any less compelling.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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The helmet debate can never be won either way. In fact from all i have read on sh I'm not even sure a compromise is possible. Very frustrating indeed
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Poster: A snowHead
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jirac18, there is a huge mire of repetitive threads on the same subject in the archives. Normally several a season. Frequently the same people screaming invective at each other. Would be fascinated to hear if anyone had their position changed one way or another by the furious Internet debate, and a little surprised.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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T Bar, If you are only skiing at 30km/h you will probably get wiped out by someone coming from behind you rather than crashing into something and hitting your head...
You will be much safer if you speed up 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I suspect that the helmet argument will, one day, be settled/ won in much the same way that the seat belt argument has been settled. There will be a time, and I suspect in the next five years, when people will simply not believe there ever was an argument. Which way it goes I don't know, but there is a strong trend towards more safety devices.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| jirac18 wrote: |
| In fact from all i have read on sh I'm not even sure a compromise is possible. |
Sometimes I wear a helmet, sometimes I don't. Does that make me the comprise candidate, or hated by both sides?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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nozawaonsen, yes that would be a useful analysis. I suspect we would end up at the same fork in the road
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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T Bar, where am I arguing against helmets? Clearly, IF you are going to hit your head then it's better covered in foam and plastic. I think people should do exactly as they feel. My argument (as it always has been) is that they are promoted and sold on the basis of being a safety solution and the media are totally suckered into that too. Fact is, by the time your head is making contact with the tree, it's already too late - either you are toast or your life will never be the same. So, I'd like to see the helmet industry talking more about strategies to prevent the need for their product. Of course, they won't.
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foxtrotzulu, oh no you've mentioned seat belts.....here we go 
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the same fork in the road
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Can you tell me the way to the helmet debate please?
Certainly, fork right, fork left and fork off.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| jirac18 wrote: |
| In fact from all i have read on sh I'm not even sure a compromise is possible. |
Sometimes I wear a helmet, sometimes I don't. Does that make me the comprise candidate, or hated by both sides? |
What are the influencing factors as to do or don't wear one on any given occasion?
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In general what skiing I think I'm going to be doing that day. Pottering around, I'll probably not wear a helmet. Skiing at my limit, I'll probably wear one. Spending a lot of time off piste, I'll probably wear one. Teaching, I'll probably not wear one. Want to use a helmet cam, I'll probably wear one. No hard and fast rules, just some sort of vague risk assessment based on what I'm likely to be doing that day.
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FAQ
