 Poster: A snowHead
|
stanton,
| Quote: |
Off Piste that early (9th December) in St Anton is unlikely any season, the base is never deep enough & to many obstacles.
|
I don't know the topography of St Anton and I'm doing an off-piste course there in early January. I think you posted about the dangers of lots of snow on an inadequate base and would be interested in your thoughts in whether there will - assuming the snow does actually arrive during December - sufficient safe off-piste areas on which to keep oneself amused for a week. Or do you think that most of the (lift-served) areas will be unsafe?
For the avoidance of doubt, I'm assuming that there will be some decent snowfalls before I arrive. I understand from what you say above that, if it doesn't, there won't be any off-piste at all, safe or otherwise.
(I wasn't sure whether to post this in the St Anton thread, but the quote above is from this thread. Sorry if it's thought to be O/T.)
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
|
Pedantica, I've skied offpiste in St Anton in November. There were pics of guys touring there this September posted on TGR. There are lots of places in the Arlberg that can be pretty avalanche prone, but there *should* be plenty of safe places. I'm sure you understand that avalanche danger really can't be accurately predicted that far in advance (although weather conditions at the time of the first [and subsequent] snowfalls can affect how layers build up, other weather conditions can help consolidate [or further destabilise] the snowpack too).
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
clarky999, thanks and I do understand that one can't predict avalanches in the absence of knowledge of specific conditions on the day, and of the weather that led to up to those conditions. Perhaps I should have asked: are there a reasonable number of not-too-steep lift-served slopes without the 'obstacles' referred to in stanton's post? That said, I'm not entirely sure what he meant by 'obstacles.' Sorry, my ignorance is showing...  Anyway, it doesn't matter too much at the end of the day: I am assuming that the guides/instructors won't take us anywhere unsafe (I hope!) and if we end up having to ski on piste, then so be it, it's still better than Clapham Common in January!
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
I just read that the lack of precipitation during the autumn has been so marked that the level of water in some rivers - including the Rhine - is exceptionally low. If the level drops any more, it's possible that it will become unnavigable. That puts our ski holiday concerns into perspective... 
It would take an awful lot of trucks to carry the cargo which is carried by boats on the Rhine - and no doubt other rivers too.
And more parochially, low river levels won't help with snowmaking, either.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
|
pam w,
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Where are the 'don't worry' brigade now?
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
| Pedantica wrote: |
stanton,
| Quote: |
Off Piste that early (9th December) in St Anton is unlikely any season, the base is never deep enough & to many obstacles.
|
I don't know the topography of St Anton and I'm doing an off-piste course there in early January. I think you posted about the dangers of lots of snow on an inadequate base and would be interested in your thoughts in whether there will - assuming the snow does actually arrive during December - sufficient safe off-piste areas on which to keep oneself amused for a week. Or do you think that most of the (lift-served) areas will be unsafe?
For the avoidance of doubt, I'm assuming that there will be some decent snowfalls before I arrive. I understand from what you say above that, if it doesn't, there won't be any off-piste at all, safe or otherwise.
(I wasn't sure whether to post this in the St Anton thread, but the quote above is from this thread. Sorry if it's thought to be O/T.) |
They are running a business, they have to operate & hope there is snow all season. They know in reality that it not possible to satify all groups maybe due to to much snow (dangerous). If there is no Off-piste your be skiing On Piste. They will not take you anywhere that is going to put them at risk or beyond your ability (they will assess that).
Of course folk get out in the snow all over the place in November, they normally know the safe routes but the real Off Piste in the Arlberg is best Mid February to the April & then touring in May.
The prognosis which is changing daily is for a temperatur drop on the 6th & signifcant DUMP starting on the December 7th
http://www.meteoprog.ch/en/weather/StAntonamArlberg/6_10/
Last edited by You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net. on Thu 1-12-11 9:37; edited 2 times in total
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
stanton,
| Quote: |
They are running a business, they have to operate & take the risk (hope there is snow) all season. If there is no Off-piste your be skiing On Piste. They will not take you anywhere that is going to put them at risk or beyond your ability (they will assess that).
Off course folk get out in the snow all over the place in November, they normally know the safe routes but the real Off Piste in the Arlberg is best Mid February to the April & then Touring in May.
|
Thanks for this information. Unfortunately, none of it actually addresses my question. No matter.
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
|
Pedantica, from what I saw of the St Anton/Lech area and from my even more limited knowledge, I would have thought there was plenty of suitable terrain that you would be able to go on, assuming it snows before then!
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
| Pedantica wrote: |
| assuming the snow does actually arrive during December - sufficient safe off-piste areas on which to keep oneself amused for a week. |
YES
| Pedantica wrote: |
| Or do you think that most of the (lift-served) areas will be unsafe |
?
It takes a day or two for new snow to settle down before they allow you to ski the inbounds lift served off piste.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
cathy, stanton, thanks. Good to know we'll probably have somewhere to play.
stanton,
| Quote: |
It takes a day or two for new snow to settle down before they allow you to ski the inbounds lift served off piste.
|
Fair enough, I was thinking more of the long-term (and widespread) danger, due to an insufficient base, which you yourself have described. Also, what is 'inbounds off-piste'? I didn't think that concept existed in Europe. I have skied very little in Austria, though.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
Worryingly the weather forecasts seem to be following a very similar pattern to last year. Long range forecasts that show decent snow on the horizon, which fades as the short range forecasts are produced until there is no longer any snow forecast.
Last year it was bearable as there was a lot of snow early in the season (November and December) so there was plenty of base for the piste bashers to work with, maintaining decent pistes, despite no snow in a lot of French resorts after boxing day.
If a similar pattern of snowfall from now until March happens this year as last the pistes will be bare for the whole season.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
| Pedantica wrote: |
cathy, stanton, thanks. Good to know we'll probably have somewhere to play.
stanton,
| Quote: |
It takes a day or two for new snow to settle down before they allow you to ski the inbounds lift served off piste.
|
Fair enough, I was thinking more of the long-term (and widespread) danger, due to an insufficient base, which you yourself have described. Also, what is 'inbounds off-piste'? I didn't think that concept existed in Europe. I have skied very little in Austria, though. |
St Anton has a few "ski routes" which are "marked, avalanche controlled but not groomed or patrolled" according to the piste map. Actually some of them do get partially groomed sometimes. This is as close as you can get to "in bounds off piste" I guess. There is also a lot of very easily accessed off-piste, such as Backseite and the big slope above the Ullmerhutte (above run no. 14). These slopes are directly above very busy pistes so I would assume they are controlled. However, there is no guarantee and you should treat these slopes as if they were not controlled.
As StAnton says, these routes (and indeed some of the high lifts that access them) can be closed for a few hours or even a day or 2 after a big storm.
As for you concerns about an "insufficient base"... yes, a thin snow pack is an issue. Thin snowpacks are more likely to slide as the temperature gradient is much steeper*. This remains a factor all season in some areas to be honest. The fact that there isn't a lot of snow right now is not necessarily a problem for later in the season so long as we get a decent covering, but a thin snow pack is never going to help.
* - yes, I have just been swotting up on this as I'm booked on a course in January 
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
In the Austria Snow Report 2011/12 threadI have posted a photo showing the current situation at the Areitbahn I in Zell am See.
I am taking a ski course in Kirchberg (Kitzbühel) starting next Monday and that seems to be going ahead. I'm not sure how! On the Bergbahn Kitzbühel web site all that is mentioned is that there is free skiing for kids on the Mockingwiese this weekend. Here we say Nomen ist omen. Sounds all a bit too true in this case. The Hahnenkammbahn is scheduled to start operation on 9th December, otherwise the lifts will operate as and when weather and snow allow 
Hopefully the forecast snow will appear from the weekend.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
sah, thanks, that's very helpful. I didn't realise that 'ski routes' still existed in Austria, as in France (itineraires) they seem mostly to have transmogrified into well and truly un-patrolled off-piste, presumably with the avoidance of legal claims in mind.
Assuming it snows at all (!) I feel reassured that there will be some safe off-piste to be found. Are you doing a Snoworks course, by any chance? (Edit: sorry, on re-reading your post, I see that it could be anywhere, not necessarily St Anton.)
Well done for swotting up: my laziness leads me to asking daft questions on snowHeads instead.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
|
Pedantica, No, I'm doing the AIARE avalanche course in Chamonix. If they did this in St Anton then I'd certainly do it there instead, but I think ChamEx in Chamonix are the only folks who do the AIARE syllabus in Europe (it's an American course, but highly rated and appeals to me as it is more about decision making than just how to use a beacon etc).
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
|
Can anyone remember when the snow (generaly) accross the alps has been so late in coming, and how did it effect the season?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I recall 2009 being similar? You'll get different opinions/memories from country to country even resort to resort. I was in France for Christmas 09 and the chalet lad showed me a picture on his camera the home run which was a green pasture 2 weeks beofre we arrived and then it proceeded to dump, and dump, and dump. Actually it was the worst white out week I'd had-ever. For some too much snow can be a bad thing too...... 
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Solden has had 24 cm in the last 24 hours and around 30cm due in Western Austria nd eastern Switzerland. Iscgl has 82 km of piste open and Zermatt is bosting a whopping 116km of piste open. Up to 55cm fell in various sacndinavian resorts. a few resorts have delayed opening by a week or so.
It aint good at the moment but fingers crossed.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
| Renry wrote: |
| Can anyone remember when the snow (generaly) accross the alps has been so late in coming, and how did it effect the season? |
2 come immediately to mind,
1989 - heavy-ish fall before Christmas, nothing for (?) 8 weeks, perfectly fine thereafter, if patchy lower down. Triggered much investment in snow making. Not a "classic" season but chums were loving knee deep powder in mid April (Avoriaz)
2005 - skied one open man made run in Lets Gets weekend of dec 3, skied almost every weekend thereafter until Feb 28 in good, if not excellent conditions.
Probably many more if I put my mind to it.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
bobmcstuff, Just reciting what the guys who drive the big red things are saying. Clearly they dont know what they are talking about and I bow to the superior knowledge. They have usually had that level of snowfall by now.
Oh and another Bluebird day of perfect conditions on the glacier just superb skiing today, Down side was it was warm enough to be making bigger brown patches at the mid station levels.
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
These are the stats for Vienna.
It is pretty much the same for Austria & large parts of Switzerland.
The previous driest November in Vienna was in 1841:
- 1982: 8 mm
- 1953: 7 mm
- 1920: 2 mm
- 1902: 1 mm
- 1895: 8 mm
- 1891: 9 mm
There has always been at least 10 mm (usually alot more ) registered. In other words, there was not a November without rain since the last record and the November with less than 10 mm were very rare (6 years in 170)
-2011: 0 mm
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
we skied one year probably about 5 years ago on the milkyway resorts where most runs were surround by green in late jan.
8C outside at the moment at 480m in Switzerland...forecasts for something to happen from friday onwards still but less so then it was yesterday.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
|
robboj, that happens with monotonous regularity
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
To puts Stantons figures into a UK context, Skye has a November average of 164mm 
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
|
here's one for Pam, Meteo France says it is the worst start to winter for 50 years and maybe since 1900. They had l'Alpe d'Huez on the TV tonight where the piste director was whinging that it was too warm to run snow canons with the low of -1C overnight. However they will open the top of the domain next weekend with 25% of runs scheduled to open.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
| Renry wrote: |
| Can anyone remember when the snow (generaly) accross the alps has been so late in coming, and how did it effect the season? |
IIRC it was Xmas 2004 (though could be 2003) when we were in courchevel 1650, started skiing on the saturday of Xmas week; 2 days previously the nursery slopes were literally green runs...
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
|
2005 - Alpe D'huez was really bare when we turned up on the second or third week in Jan. Temp dropped on the first night and it snowed for the next two days, which made us very happy campers, all in accordance with the forecast, which is why we booked on the thursday before we left.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
|
mountainaddict, maybe super high on the glacier? Was pretty chilly in Innsbruck this morning, but it's warmed up now again. Crazy how bare the mountains are. I'd hoped to be skiing this week, looks like I'll have to wait 'til next trip on the 20th for that though. Probably a good thing really, should probably concentrate on the dissertation for now. Which is why I'm on SH of course...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
REMINDS me of a saying we used to have: "if she smokes, she pokes". 
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I'm looking forward to hiring a car and visiting Milan, Zagreb, Munich, Verona and Lichtenstein from my base in St Anton. Then, I'm less looking forwad to my mid January where I'm going to be stuck in the middle of the Dolomites, but anyway am going to explore Northern Italy as much as possible.
I'm actually quite excited about going on a holiday with no skiing.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
| James the Last wrote: |
| I'm actually quite excited about going on a holiday with no skiing. |
... and I'm quite excited about going on a holiday with plenty of skiing, on Saturday
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Glacier skiing for the Peak Xmas/New Year Holidays is a nightmare, everyone will have to line up for 2-3 hrs (not uncommon) to get up the hill, then possibly only get one or two runs in before having to line up for the transportation down.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
FAQ
