 Poster: A snowHead
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jjc james, nope, only those that are critical for the safety of our clients.
After all your First aid allready needs retaking every 3 years.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Why would someone become unsafe within 3 years?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I dont think re validation is a bad idea. You could possibly do a 2 day job for example ET in the morning and tech analysis in the afternoon with a bit of teaching the following day.
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kevindonkleywood, What makes you so sure that somebody who had passed the ET wouldn't pass a few years later ?
There was a post from jjc here that described why people don't pass. People don't take it seriously enough, I am always struck by how few trainees are in the gym in Tignes in the autumn, plenty of the trainers will be there as they know what level of fitness is required to do their job.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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kevindonkleywood, Well no, but I think if you want to be an ISTD you should have to be poo-poo hot, maybe they should have a freestyle option too though for non racer types. You don't get asked to re-take your driving test every few years do you? The reason you have to re-take first aid is because we never really use it. (well, unless you drag beginners off piste...) We use what we learn in the teach/tech courses etc on a far more regular basis. You do have to do 3 yearly refreshers don't you? This should be enough to be taught about new changes etc.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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heidiky, all great points!
The refresher system would work great for the ET, every 2-3 years basi could run a race for members and that (fun not serious!) can count as a refresher. Or you could just go and do a couple of days GS training.
There is no point saying "ET needs re-validation", refreshing would do the trick and not put up yet more walls for older people. I think the aim has to be to make it fun not a burden.
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jjc james, Cheers, I would agree with a refresher type fun GS or training every few or maybe 5 years. Like you said, we don't need more walls!!! Defo should be an option to to do eurotest in other capacities ie fis skier x, moguls, freestyle etc. The industry is moving that way anyway!
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heidiky, only problem i see is cost!
The ET costs BASI masses of money each year! So to add another 3 disciplines for zero $$$ (ok would be some adim costs i suppose) as it would all be run by FIS does seem to make sense.
Although my Job Protection Sense (oh yeah JPS) is tingling slightly as i type this!
^ joke obviously i have no JPS..... that i know of hehe!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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jjc james, true, everything basi is money money money! But hey, what's new? I think it would be important to include other disciplines, we're only human! And hey...there's always people keen for race training... your job's a good'un!
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I've been reading this with interest; First some background...
I've been a keen skier since school years(30 odd years ago); did a little racing but nothing serious but did a little over the last few years since I started training as/being an instructor about 3 years ago after being given a grubby envelope of cash to leave my job in The City.....
Previous sporting focus was sailing (catamarans) and I was part of the Olympic development squad (Hurricane-Tornado) for the '96 games, did not make it, ran out of money and probably talent!. I now only sail for fun.
Given that we CURRENTLY have the ET; Some may argue that it should not be part of the requirements to get to ISIA / ISTD / equivalence in France.
We have it as a hurdle to jump:
Is it fair?
Is it achievable?
Is it a barrier to people progressing to the level they could/should be at?
Given my 30+ years of SAILING I have the skills I developed deeply engrained in my brain and muscle memory, but I'm not as fit as I was and I do not train as much for sailing.
Can I stay with the current crop of the ollies squad? Nope;
If I wanted to be a sailing coach, do I need to be able to? NOPE.
Now to skiing…..My view….
Is racing a requirement for being a good ski instructor? Depends….
If someone wants a “lesson to improve my racing skills” then yes; but could/should they not engage the skills of a race coach?.
Does a good instructor need to be able to ski gates - SL and GS?
YES; it’s a skill we should have, even if we cannot go as fast as the current crop at the front of the fleet.
In my view the ET is here to stay; the French want it; and we (BASI) have a very small boot in the snowdrift so I doubt we(BASI) are going to get rid of it; we are just too small. Perhaps a better plan is to work to make it more achievable to those who do not spend their youth skiing gates every weekend in the Alps!
Could someone tell me why the %ages were set where they are?
Anything to do with the cut-off for senior squad in the alpine nations?
Thus those that are going to FIS or Europa cup are already better than this and so those that do not make the cut as a top-flight racer can “easily” pass the ET and so have a route into the instruction business?
What age does the average “alpine nation” instructor enter the business vs us Brits?
Back to the point of is it achievable?
Well people pass it; so it must be.
But we struggle as we do not have the infrastructure to manufacture the volume of people to perform at the highest level and so we don’t have the depth of talent and so none of the the “shared learning” that comes about by performing “with the fleet”.
So; is it a barrier to entry? Yep;
I get the feeling it’s there because people want it (other nation authorities). We have to play by their rules because they have bigger boots in the snow-drift.
Would age allowances be fair; yes please; I cannot perform at the level I was able to when sailing in 96; so can I have some help please to pass a test that will be much harder now than it would have been 15 years ago…..
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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scooby_simon, As has been pointed out several times in this thread, you do not need to pass the Eurotest to be a race coach so analogies with other sports don't really help.
In racing terms the pass standard for the ET could be described as "starting to get the hang of it", the standard for national teams is a lot higher, for France you would need to be around 20 FIS at age 18 to get into the B team.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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is the ET testing the level of fitness more than it is testing the level of skill?
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We encourage the fitness side so much more for the summer and pre season training than the actual 50 seconds at a ET. You need the fitness so you can spend long effective hours at 3000+ meters for several weeks, learning the skills you need to pass. On a whole us brits tend to have spent a lot less time on snow, so when we get the chance we need to make the most of it. If for example you are on our 6 week camp and you do 2 to 3 less runs a day because you have not trained hard enough before coming on the camp, you will loose out on a potential 100+ runs which could quite easily translate into 1 second + on test day. You may also only have spent the same amount of time in the gates as someone who has paid for 4 weeks. (You could work this out against the cost of a monthly gym membership  )
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There is a huge degree of polarity in the ET argument and very little middle ground. Time, technique and technology move on and it is important that the qualification mix that is required of the trainers at the top of any sport should be reviewed regularly. It is not about 'lowering standards' but about keeping them relevant to this century, that may mean a boarder skill set, but then many hate the idea of a ‘freestyle’ test.
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I agree with this. I think the Euro Test will remain relevant though for some time and as long as technology keeps improving and the 18% remains the same it is only getting easier. I think there will be additional tests added to meet the demands of the industry.
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3 years is a fairly common revalidation period for most industries especially for 'safety' related matters. Given that the only justification given by FEMPS was on safety grounds then 3 years seems a good interval.
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I also agree with this. If you get your ISTD in your early 20's sit back and relax and don’t try to improve with the industry then there is a large chance by the time your 40+ you might not be "poo poo hot" (i love that saying ) I have no opinion on if it should be 3 years or 10 years but i do think you should be required to maintain standards and that it shouldn't be to demanding for someone working full time as a ISTD ski instructor. If someone attended one of James’s "refreshers" and was quite clearly along way from the standard should they be able to keep the qualification? I would argue no, if we truly believe (and I do,,,Not so sure about James with his JPS  ) that the current tests are in place to keep safety, standards etc high then you should be required to maintain that level or the tests were a pointless exercise in the first place.
jjc james, With regard to the FIS freestyle points idea, it wouldn’t work because the point system is terrible. Its pretty tough to really tell how good someone is by their points because your points are determined by position and nothing to do with time. So if you have 5 really good people at a race giving a maximum penalty and no one else there (it happens a lot in America and southern hemisphere comps) you can come last and score more than someone who has come top 20 at a world cup.....crazy i know!! We have Canadians, Americans etc come to Europa Cup ski cross comps who are ranked in the top 15 at the event and are then 7 seconds off in qualification.
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You know it makes sense.
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jjc, JPS was for Opening, why need openers if they use FIS scores. But i forgot the whole Freestyle system was a bit wobbly when it comes to facts! 
CPD is there already in ski instruction so the question is, "Is it good enough?"
When you can keep your ISTD valid by doing a snowboard Level 1 as i have done it seems a bit silly, where is the relevance? Well it is there i learnt a lot about being a learner again. I learnt to ski so long ago that i can't ever remember struggling with anything. Being back to basics helped me more than say re-sitting the ISTD.
But that will not be the case for everyone, those that effectively scrape through the ISTD (i've seen a few!) will need to more high end skiing in future to sustain ISTD level for any period of time.
Last edited by You know it makes sense. on Thu 14-04-11 13:26; edited 1 time in total
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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CPD is there already in ski instruction so the question is, "Is it good enough?"
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It is for BASI - but I don't think it's the case for all qualifications?
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Quote: |
against the cost of a monthly gym membership
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Can I take the extra 2 weeks above 3000m please
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Works for me
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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and me
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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jjc, assuming someone arrives relatively fit for one of your 6 week camps, they are an ISIA level skier training towards ET and havent done any previous racing. I know it is all down to the individual etc. but give it a good guess...
How many 6 week camps would they have to do to be in a position to be at or near the level of the test?
How many tests do skiers from a non racing background usually have to take before success?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Mr skimottaret...totally reckon you should satisfy you curiosity and go do one of these bad boys....! No. of tests entered is not really relevant - its how hard you train on and off hill and just generally programming yourself to become a ski racer whos looking to improve all the time in terms of technique and tactics such as line choice etc.. Thinking of it as a standard basi course wouldnt help imo. Always young guns who sicken and ace the bloomin thing after 4 wks after seeing a gs panel..For good strong isia passes I reckon the average brit would be 2 - 3 seasons. For some others a lot longer. A guy I trained with passed at ADH a few yrs ago and did 6wks x 4 plus ad hoc days during the seasons and only did the first couple of tests every yr. He had the simple and straight forward point of view - when I'm good enough I'll pass. He found a bit extra speed every yr, didn't get down about his poorer days and nailed the thing aged 41 I think.
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Jonnie, the point i was trying to make was that you need to spend huge amounts of time and money to even stand a chance if you haven't raced as a child. I recon your 41 year old mate is a good example. He did roughly half a year on a glacier longer than all his previous BASI training combined, which probably cost 10-20K Euro just to get near the standard. i applaud his persistence and positive attitude but does all of that effort make him a much better ski teacher?
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skimottaret, the amount he will have learned he can then pass on to others. Therefore and extra half a years knowledge better than he was before.
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skimottaret, I think Jonnie pretty much sums it up.
Remember we have spent rather large sums of money and made a lot of sacrifices as racers as well We just did it at a different time in our lives.
I appreciate it is a massive decision and a tough one to make. As Jonnie, says it is probably worth you having a go, seeing where you are at and what you are going to have to do to meet the mark. Then you can truly make an informed decision on if that is what you want or not.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| jjc james wrote: |
| skimottaret, the amount he will have learned he can then pass on to others. Therefore and extra half a years knowledge better than he was before. |
Isn't this an extra half a year's knowledge in something very specific i.e. how to go fast, racing tactics and headgame. Good if he wants to be a high end race coach, limited in application for the very great majority of ski school pupils. How much wider would the knowledge base be if someone spent a similar amount of time skiing everywhere and condition on the mountain including digging avy pits etc. It strikes me that if you were designing a programme from scratch to create the very highest level of ski instructors you could do a.great deal with the luxury of that time to make them the best possible all rounders and that while racing would feature it wouldn't be everything
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| fatbob wrote: |
| Isn't this an extra half a year's knowledge in something very specific i.e. how to go fast, racing tactics and headgame. Good if he wants to be a high end race coach, limited in application for the very great majority of ski school pupils. |
In a highly specific context, yes, but the skills developed within that context are highly transferable. I would say over 50% of what you'll get out of that year and a half is a refined sense of (dynamic) balance, which combines with pressure management and other associated technical aspects to just make you a better skier. That may not sound much, but it's the key to good skiing, and what almost every recreational skier falls down on - so no it is not limited in application as you believe. The course and clock are just the tools appropriate to make those improvements. The clock is the simple solution to the problem of your sense of what you were doing differing from what the coach saw, and your corresponding unwillingness to accept his advice/strictures - don't underestimate the power of that unbiased and incontravertible judge. Remember it's GS, which is essentially normal skiing, just fast and precise. I would agree with you more if you were arguing against a slalom test - the headgame argument is way more important for SL than GS.
I know I'm an infinitely better skier - both on piste, flat or bumps, and off - now than before I started regular race training, but I know I'm still way off the ET standard, and I can feel the deficiencies that cause me to be that far off when I'm skiing. Passing the corrective measures on to students is a difficult job, and doesn't happen quickly, but I doubt you have a hope if you haven't felt how to get through the problems yourself.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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GrahamN, If we can ever afford a community manager/spokes person, you have the job
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Isn't this an extra half a year's knowledge in something very specific i.e. how to go fast, racing tactics and headgame.
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I think this is a massive miss conception as most people that have come to us have had issues in their general technique. ISIA and ISTD skiers will not all have the fundamental skills that are required for good technical skiing (if they should is a totally different convo!) but they are all good skiers! The amount of work done outside of the gates just improving their skiing before then trying to apply that to gates is massive in almost every candidate.
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I know I'm an infinitely better skier - both on piste, flat or bumps, and off - now than before I started regular race training, but I know I'm still way off the ET standard, and I can feel the deficiencies that cause me to be that far off when I'm skiing. Passing the corrective measures on to students is a difficult job, and doesn't happen quickly, but I doubt you have a hope if you haven't felt how to get through the problems yourself.
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GrahamN, That is exactly what i mean (i didn't have the time earlier to go more in depth), the technique is improved and that then transfers to every aspect of skiing. Thats why you can see high level racers doing slow drills every morning before training and races, it all transfers to high speed skiing. Its also why we find things like bumps, variables etc easier as its just a question of applying different timing, pressure control etc as the basic position and movement pattern is the same.
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Still the best thread on snowheads with lots of interesting views & comments .
Would appreciate comments on the following:
The pass rate for Eurotest is 18% of 0 FIS points which equates to 156 FIS Points (F factor 870 x 18% =156.6 points) correct yes or no?
So why is the exemption 100 FIS points(men) ? (approx 6 seconds faster)
Why not give exemption to anyone who has less than 156 FIS Points?
This would enable anyone to plan a racing programme and achieve the exemption at any FIS approved race rather than have to do Eurotests.
James/Craig what do you think??
If my calculations are incorrect please feel free to correct
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You know it makes sense.
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stewart woodward, I think the exemption is now 80 points? It might have changed.
It is a good question. I think they do it to stop anyone going to a give away race where the points they score are not genuine. This happens quite a lot in a season, there is usually a race in Iran or Turkey http://www.fis-ski.com/uk/604/610.html?sector=AL&competitorid=110219&raceid=57894 (check out 16th usual scores) Its always somewhere not many racers are likely to turn up and they pay a decent racer to come and ski slow (give away their points) It happens a lot around the Olympics etc so some of the less likely nations can get athletes in.
This is why I feel the ISIA test is not great. It is much harder to score 50 points in Sud Tirol with really high start numbers than it is in say America where you can start 50 bibs closer to the top guys. You will find just because two athletes have 50 points they are not always the same speed.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| jjc wrote: |
| stewart woodward, I think the exemption is now 80 points? It might have changed. |
Why 80 points if 18% = 156 points?
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| It is a good question. I think they do it to stop anyone going to a give away race where the points they score are not genuine. This happens quite a lot in a season, there is usually a race in Iran or Turkey http://www.fis-ski.com/uk/604/610.html?sector=AL&competitorid=110219&raceid=57894 (check out 16th usual scores) Its always somewhere not many racers are likely to turn up and they pay a decent racer to come and ski slow (give away their points) It happens a lot around the Olympics etc so some of the less likely nations can get athletes in. |
You learn something new everyday
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Poster: A snowHead
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stewart woodward, Hey sorry for not getting back to you re morzine. had a crap connection and only spotted the pm feature after i got back from Abetone a week later.
100 point exemption helps stop people trying to rig races i think. Rigging can cost $$$$ but sometimes a group of mates will make a great race and a ski slow. Why? to help a buddy qualify for Olympics or Worldchamps or possibly the ET. Heres an example of a rigged race, 25-02-09 in Iran http://www.fis-ski.com/uk/604/613.html?sector=AL&listid=&competitorid=110219&type=result
This was how the guy from Ghana got to the 2010 olyimpics! Notice its his best ever result by over 100 points!
Having the exemption a fair bit lower makes it harder to sneak through. Don't know for a fact thats why it is the way it is but its my opinion.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Because 156 points when the penalty is 0 at a world cup is likely to be different to 156 points at a CIT FIS race somewhere with a 30 point penalty which has been made by guys who quite possibly no longer ski to their points.
Our calibrations ensure its 18% (roughly 156 points) comparable to a 0 point penalty. My guess is 80 points is so they can be on the safe side if candidates started seeking give away races possibly.
I think the start numbers at an ET make it slightly easier than 156 points. For example if you made a penalty from the opener’s times, because of the French guy’s points it could be around 20 sometimes. I ski much closer to them (sometimes but rarely quicker) than i would at a FIS race purely because i am starting the same time and not 60-70 bibs later, meaning i would score much better than i ever did on the FIS circuit.
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GrahamN, All good points and I can see my devil's advocacy struggling here.
So I guess what we're really talking about in practice is that people are going into ET prep as some level below ISTD tech because of the lead time in getting the ET locked down.
jjc james - I guess I'm a bit shocked that ISTD tech passes are still lacking in fundamental skills for technical skiing or are we talking practice in application of those skills?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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fatbob, its hard to explain without showing you but i hope this helps.
ISTD
(Steeps = Pass) + (Long turns = Pass) = Doesn't equate to great long turns on a steep pitch
Application and understanding of when to use skills is important. But some do not have the right skills to put together a decent long turn. Long turns down a normally fairly flat an un undulating piste can be passed with a fair amount of pressure management + technical issues (esp on sl skis!). It is at a high standard for a recreational skier turned instructor. Its possible to pass the ISTD with all 5's (may have changed now).
If i think back to where we did long turns on my tech and then compare to say the ADH stade the ADH stade is much steeper and requires a higher level of skill. Technically with a 5 someone should be able to replicate a performance in steeper conditions but this is not the case in reality. These problems become magnified and it is harder to hide them so to speak.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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jjc james, That makes it clearer - because the rest of qualification is modular participants can get through individual elements without having to blend them in a "stressed" situation (although presumably at ISTD at what would be a high recreational speed). Hence a race element has a general purpose in pulling them together. I'm coming round to the idea (but still not convinced the bar need be so high).
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Did they drop the whole, "you need to be on 17m radius (men) 15 radius (women)" thing??
You can understand the exemption cut off being fairly low, otherwise the ET races would be empty - everyone would be traveling round to cit races and iran to get points!!
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| heidiky wrote: |
| You can understand the exemption cut off being fairly low, otherwise the ET races would be empty - everyone would be traveling round to cit races and iran to get points!! |
I don't think anybody is worried about ET races being empty.
The GBR quota for CIT races is only 8 male and 8 female, entry is allocated to those with best points so it can be hard for somebody on 150 points or more to get a start. The quota for other FIS races is smaller.
In most CIT GS races the girls go first down the same course as the boys, so a male racer with no points could have a bib of 240, at least in the ET you know you will get a better start number than this.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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rjs, i think that was more a comment on fixed races, although fis races are run in scotland where we get our big quota's!
doubt anyones gonna trek back for one when only 5 people signed up for ET in scotland last season!
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Hi All. Been reading this thread with interest as I am about to take my Alpine 2 and have been wondering how far up the ladder I can realistically progress at 42 and without a pile of cash to spend. One of the earlier posts mentioned a training regime that works well as preparation for the ET - could this be sent on to me please? Also, is it possible to take a ET without being ISIA? This would be really useful for someone like me to gauge just how far off the mark I am.
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FAQ
