 Poster: A snowHead
|
| xyzpaul wrote: |
| Okay, I'll rephrase my question: has anyone skiied the Tignes controlled off piste area, if so what is it like?? |
Yes, but only once (Feb 2005) when it was open as SPOT. Have skiied in that area a few times before SPOT was opened. Eg from Col du Palet drag, traverse towards top of Col de Ves chair. Then there are (were!) numerous off piste opportunities to rejoin the Signal piste or the Col de Ves piste.
Had a look at the Tignes website and the printed piste map. Have not found any description of what sort of "control" is performed on the SPOT area. Specifically, I have not read anything to say that the SPOT is an avalanche controlled area. Could anyone provide a link to such a description?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
|
There was a www.pistehors.com interview with Tuaillon, piste services director at Tignes, including some discussion on that subject. There's a link on SH somewhere....
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
|
It's here, but I can't see any details about avalanche control...
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
|
little tiger, stupid huh?
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
|
GrahamN, I'm not sure actually - I believe that recovery off piste in the PDS is more expensive than on piste. Although this does raise the questions of what applies to tourers?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
GrahamN, ha ha hadn't seen your earlier hunting reference!
I saw some foxes on the King's Rd as I was walking home this evening. I think they were Russian - they certainly had very long legs and fine spring plumage. I wouldn't mind hunting them down but that might get me in trouble.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| David Murdoch wrote: |
| little tiger, stupid huh? |
sounds like the stuff they do in Ireland.... are you sure they didn't get someone irish to help them set that up? 
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
|
nah, they aren't that smart.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Frosty the Snowman wrote: |
| Quote: |
I'll ask the piste security director at Les Arcs for his opinion - I'll be seeing him in a couple of days.
|
That would be excellent. Great to get the view of such a person. Is he a nervous novice . No seriously i think his views would be a excellent contibution to the debate. |
With a bit of luck it'll be a joint interview with him as well as Tuaillon, piste director at Tignes. Had brekkie with Serge Gilliot (Les Arcs piste director) yesterday. To sum up an informal chat on the subject...
- runs are classified not just according to prescribed gradients, but also other elements that affect the level of difficulty.
- Les Arcs is not best geared to beginners. Scope for greens is limited. Landscaping would be required as all blues have an element of difficulty that take them out of the green category.
- beginners slopes are available in each village of the domain - and mostly free - for first week skiers.
- because conditions vary, a broad brush erring on the pessimistic side is preferred. More gradings, narrower bands; might give an impression of facility when in fact conditions result in a higher level of difficulty.
- whiteboard messages detail piste conditions (unpisted, bumpy, icy etc) where relevant.
I also tested the system a little yesterday. At the top of the Comborcière chair in Les Arcs (top of the Molgovert red) I asked the lift attendant to tell me more about the conditions on said red, explaining that I had a two week skier with me who was on snow that day for the first time in two years. He didn't know - hadn't skied it today - but immediately, without pressing, called a pisteur out of the nearby cabin and explained the situation. His view was that it was bumpy, unpisted, and with its difficult narrow sections, it was in 'black' condition, and advised against a red 'debutant' trying it out today.
(Edit, there was a whiteboard message at the entrance to the run, stating that the run was very bumpy and 'difficile').
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
| PG wrote: |
- runs are classified not just according to prescribed gradients, but also other elements that affect the level of difficulty.
- Les Arcs is not best geared to beginners. Scope for greens is limited. Landscaping would be required as all blues have an element of difficulty that take them out of the green category.
- beginners slopes are available in each village of the domain - and mostly free - for first week skiers.
- because conditions vary, a broad brush erring on the pessimistic side is preferred. More gradings, narrower bands; might give an impression of facility when in fact conditions result in a higher level of difficulty.
- whiteboard messages detail piste conditions (unpisted, bumpy, icy etc) where relevant.
|
Interesting comments. I'm a bit surprised that he says the scope for greens is limited. The Forêt piste from the top of the Grizzly chair all the way down to Vallandry I think should be classified as the wonderful green run that it is, rather than the blue that it is currently identified as. Other pistes, such as Cascades below Arc 1950 and Gollet might also fall into what I think is suitable terrain for green pistes?
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
|
rob@rar.org.uk, thanks. I'll try and get an opinion on those three in particular.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
How does incresing the number of gradings make for a higher level of difficulty? 
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
|
PG, yes some of these zig-zag tracks through the trees over on the Piesey side would be greens in (for example) Serre Che and some other French resorts.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
|
I think it would also probably help if one knew that the marked colour was the maximum rather than average gradient.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
|
I would say les arcs is VERY suitable for beginners - as someone else mentioned cascades, the existing piste mauves, and even the runs up by the snowpark are very much easy suprise free and not that steep. Charmettoger is another one I think would fall into an 'easy blue' category with no problems at all and would be green some places! aj xx
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
|
eng_ch, that's the point, it's the maximum difficulty - not just gradient - as I understand the system. Which is why a pessimistic, broad-brush approach with less bands would be more 'accurate' in that it covers a run under a broader range of conditions.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
| PG wrote: |
| It's here, but I can't see any details about avalanche control... |
The SPOT is served by a single chair which is closed if there is a serious risk of avalanche in the zone.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
| PG wrote: |
| eng_ch, that's the point, it's the maximum difficulty - not just gradient - as I understand the system. Which is why a pessimistic, broad-brush approach with less bands would be more 'accurate' in that it covers a run under a broader range of conditions. |
But what of a run at the top end of the band, under a broader range of conditions, it will still be a more difficult run.
Less bands only works if all the runs are in the middle of the band.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
|
The broader the band, the more 'pessimistic' the grading, the less occasions a run will rise into the next category in terms of difficulty.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
How about a system of numbers with a modifier for current conditions?
1, 2, 3 would be green
4, 5, 6 blue
7, 8, 9 red
10, 11, 12 black
and then add/subtract points depending on condition.
ie. This run is a blue 6 but due to the condition of the piste it's skiing as a +1 so today it's a red 7.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| davidof wrote: |
| The SPOT is served by a single chair which is closed if there is a serious risk of avalanche in the zone. |
But what does "serious risk" mean? Where is it in the normal 1 to 5 avalanche risk scale? The piste map (plandespistes2006.pdf from Val d'Isere website) shows that much of the middle of the SPOT area is accessible from the Col du Palet lift. It also shows that the valley from near the SPOT information hut down to just above the Snowpark is easily accessible when neither Col des Ves or Col du Palet are running, but that valley is within the SPOT area - I have skied that area so I know the general layout.
Earlier in this thread (and in other Snowheads threads) the Tignes SPOT area has been described as "controlled" and "safe". (For questions and speculation about "safe" see the posts from richmond, GrahamN, ise and snowball on the morning of Friday 31 March in this thread.) I questioned what sort of controls, specifically avalanche controls, were applied as my reading of the Tignes website and elsewhere had not provided any details. PG provided a relevant link into Pistehors but I have not yet read any informed words about avalanche control within the SPOT area.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
FenlandSkier, unfortunately, that would mean regrading runs, which some one here are opposed to.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
|
Michael Jackson changed his colour-coding. Is it that controversial?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
PG,
Your summary makes perfect sense to me... and even if you dumb the whole thing down and load the system with this variable and that so it can be changeable daily.hourly - which will complicate things even more...you still have the skier having to evaluate their own capabilities. And you can see how that will go... I skied a black/red/white in so and so, so why can't I ski this one.
As most skiers should make a point of knowing how steep that countries classifications are, their next objective should be to get a feel of conditions. Its called experience and if you don't have it or can't get it, you need to be with someone who has... So its one for all those who preech lessons until such time as you can go out on your own.
And the example PG gives about asking the liftie, sounds eminently sensible to me.
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
| Adrian wrote: |
| davidof wrote: |
| The SPOT is served by a single chair which is closed if there is a serious risk of avalanche in the zone. |
But what does "serious risk" mean? Where is it in the normal 1 to 5 avalanche risk scale? The piste map (plandespistes2006.pdf from Val d'Isere website) shows that much of the middle of the SPOT area is accessible from the Col du Palet lift. It also shows that the valley from near the SPOT information hut down to just above the Snowpark is easily accessible when neither Col des Ves or Col du Palet are running, but that valley is within the SPOT area - I have skied that area so I know the general layout. |
As Ise said somewhere above, if you ski the SPOT you should be equipped with an avalanche beacon, probe and shovel and be aware of off-piste dangers - hence the location of the ARVA training zone.
Unlike the Naturides it is unsecured off-piste.... as is all the off-piste area in the Espace Killy ski domain. Common sense would say that if the Col de Ves chair is not running that the SPOT is considered unsafe to ski by the piste patrol. Either lack of snow or conditions where skier or snowboarder triggered avalanches are considered a serious risk... especially where it would be difficult to secure the Guerlan Chicherit run. If you want safety stick to the Guerlan Chicherit run that traverses the SPOT... but only when it is open.
None of the off-piste in Tignes is officially contolled for avalanche risk within the off-piste area itself. Some areas are unofficially controlled as they are in other French resorts and some areas are controlled because they have an impact on pistes or roads below.
Refering back to the PH interview (it is a long time ago now)
| Quote: |
PH: What role does the Le SPOT (Skiing Powder of Tignes) freeride area play?
JLT: It is a small thing but what we want to tell people is when you arrive at the bottom of a ski lift: open your eyes; you are going into the mountains not Disneyland. We explain about the environment, where there are dangers such as cliffs, where there might be at risk of avalanches given the current avalanche bulletin, the information is there, make use of it. On the ski slopes we try to address the dangers; off piste it is up to you to take care and ski responsibly.
|
Which seems fairly clear - the idea of the SPOT is a limited zone where the piste patroller at the freeride hut can explain what the dangers are within that zone in order to give people an idea of the risks of going off piste. As JLT says: off piste it is up to you to take care and ski responsibly.
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
easiski, I agree with your idea about some uniformity.
I find it amazing how even within a resort you can get runs marked as blue that are so obviously green and vice versa - the problem is, how do you specify difficulty for an entire run? They aren't a uniform difficulty down the whole length, so how can a single colour give you the information?
I would have 5 grades, but I would suggest an index from 1 - 100. Each run has the colour and then two numbers. The first is the index of the easiest bit and the second the hardest bit.
so you would have:
Green: 1 - 20
Blue: 21-40
Yellow: 41-60
Red: 61-80
Black: 81-100
Then you would know that if you had a green run that was described as:
Green 5 25
Then that would mean it was classed as a Green run, had some nice easy bits, but there were a couple of areas where it was a little bit more blue.
I think that would be much more useful for people to assess runs and assess how much they were improving while they were learning.
Or am I just being a little too scientific?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
kosciosco, a little over complicated,
I have started off on an “easy" black only to find the second half which is out of sight to be mogul hell (for me).
My answer on the slopes is:
Before I commit to the run I think it’s a Black and it’s a Black for a reason so it could get hard later on. Am I up for this?
If the answer is yes and I continue to find it turns nasty for me, I then call it a learning curve and take my time to get down it.
I think it’s a mindset thing. Accept the run might get harder than you are comfortable with if it does treat it as a learning experience.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
| Ray Zorro wrote: |
| Quote: |
ise,
We could do with rather less people who either fall into the "I do blacks after a weeks skiing" or 3 or 4 week skiers who can't tackle a blue run with any confidence.
|
I think that should be an "I" not a "We" beginning that sentence, as it certainly doesn't include me. I have respect for those that are still struggling to do a blue with any confidence after 3 weeks. If they are enjoying themselves and sticking at it then good for them. If they aren't doing any harm to themselves or others what's the problem? |
Exactly Ray, people who seem to believe that the slopes should only be for seasoned professionals need a reality check. Why should someone who struggles a little for confidence not be allowed out to play!?!
I ski a damn sight better than my girlfriend who has a lot more ability than confidence. She spent a week sticking to Blue and Green runs while I skied the reds in the morning and then with her in the afternoon. By your logic, she shouldn't have been there as I was spending a large chunk of my time side slipping and generally mincing around the slopes while she desperately tried to get her legs to do the parallel turns that her head and heart was asking for. She knows what she needs to do and with a little more confidence she would be fine, but comments like yours are exactly what less talented pleasure skiers need.
In Le Grand Bonard there is a blue called La Duche. It is fairly wide and damn steep and icy. There is also a red called Les Lanches. The lower half is quite narrow, undulating and very busy. She was quite happy to ski the lower Les Lanches and take an off piste cut through to another blue but would struggle down the shorter and apparently easier blue only because it leads to a fantastic cruising blue run.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
imull, Errr... look at the dates of the posts you are replying to 
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
|
I think he is "mulling"
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
and 4 years later someone finally responded to Ray's message 
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
|
It's a good bump, but I don't think its a record bump!!
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
stoatsbrother, I did not realise there was a time limit on thread posting. What is it please? 
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
Dwarf Vader, none at all... perhaps we should get pm RZ and get him to reply?
This is not the only old thread Mr Mull has restarted today. The other person who was doing this systematically a week ago was basically IMO shit-stirring - and rather successfully.
I suspect Mr Mull has done a search on black runs, come up with this and the Harakiri thread, and replied to them as though they were still live without realising they were dead.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
stoatsbrother,
| Quote: |
I suspect Mr Mull has done a search on black runs, come up with this and the Harakiri thread, and replied to them as though they were still live without realising they were dead.
|
I would agree but does anything really die on the web?
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Tue 5-01-10 20:59; edited 1 time in total
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Dwarf Vader, time, relationships, hope
I'll go and have that drink.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
|
Don't worry, if you'd started a new thread people would be queueing up to say "there's already a thread about this, use the search function, STFU n00b, etc.'
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I would like to see something introduced to indicate if a run involved any type of poling. 
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
FAQ
