Idiots without / who can't put on chains & think winter tyres will be ok

A snowHead

@Charliegolf Yes, any chainset will have a list of tyre sizes it will fit. But that is unrelated to whether there's enough space left behind the wheel - i.e. between the wheel and the wheelarch, suspension, brake pipes and (if FWD) steering - for the tyres and chains to spin without hitting or fouling something. It's only the Owners Manual, or your dealer's service department, that will definitively tell you whether that specific combination of wheel and tyre (and on performance models, the brake assembly) on your car leaves enough space to fit chains.

On many UK SUVs and performance models there isn't enough space to fit chains on the standard spec' out of the factory. So this is why I always tell people to first check their Owners Manual, and if that's ambiguous, ask their dealer's service department.

And even in Alpine countries and US mountain states, as I observed, many rental SUVs will be fitted with oversized wheels that can't take chains. I now explicitly don't rent SUVs, 4x4s or AWDs and won't take them if offered, unless they can absolutely guarantee chains are available. Even then, I'd be sceptical that on the day, I'd get a vehicle that really could take chains.

Basically, just because the chains fit the tyre, it doesn't mean they will fit the specific car. For example, this is my old Audi A3 wheel arch interior with its original equipment 'summer' wheels and tyres on and as you can see, there's not really the space free between the tyre wall and the suspension for chains to rotate at even modest road speeds. The blue thing half way down is the brake hydraulics pipe and connector and I doubt that would escape being hit, especially if the chians got a little loose.

A snowHead

The Roofbox Company are very clued up on which snowchains will fit your vehicle.

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It's not just SUV's. One of my cars has 265-40-R17 rear tyres. The owners manual specifically says to fit 235-45-R17's if/when using chains, but that needs a different set of alloy rims (two more the same as the fronts). So obviously that needs to be sorted before you leave home - no one carries two spare wheels.

I did try fitting chains to the 265's at home once. The issue is clearance between the inside edge of the rear tyres and the suspension shock absorber/strut. Thankfully of all the times we drove skiing in that car we never needed chains, or we'd have been stuffed. I don't use that car anymore for skiing - it's 30 years old. However, I expect it'll retain my personal record for the Tanrantaise to Calais for a long long time Very Happy

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I've said elswhere that I couldn't fit chains to my ordinary (i.e. not a sporty!) diesel Peugeot 306 because there wasn't enough space between the inside of the tyre and the suspension strut. This wasn't a problem whilst I was using the 306 on a daily basis around Chamonix because I had excellent Nokian snow tyres all round.

If I had thought that I might need to fit chains I would probably have bought a set of wheel spacers from a place such as https://wheelpartsdirect.com/ who sell 15mm thick spacers for about £15 each.
The usual caveat about checking clearance still applies, but with spacers and chains it would be the outside of the wheel on the arch and wing lip with full lock both left and right.

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@LaForet, As someone who has a 'front-fit-only-chains' car, I shoulda known that.

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..... and sometimes chains will only fit a car if you put on narrower winter tyres (as opposed to the summer tyre size). This means that fitting all-season tyres (instead of winter tyres) may prevent the use of chains.

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My Seat Alhambra is fitted with 17" wheels and the instruction manual demands smaller ones if the chains are to be used.

I instead went for Michelin Xclimate and RUD Centrax which are fitted externally. I can't be bothered buying a separate set of wheels (or tyres for that matter) for a car that I have no intention to keep.

I suspect this will be the case for many people these days, with widespread usage of contract hire and PCP.

After all it is free

I can recommend Maggi Traks if you have clearance issues.

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You know it makes sense.

@Judwin, " but if the rim has a different offset then you also have to work out whether the 30mm is on the inside, or outside, or (as is likely) shared between inside and outside."

The ET value can be positive or negative eg -30 to indicate which way the rim is being offset.

Mostly current vehicles use positive ET to place the rim mostly central over wheel bearings for geometry and load reasons.

A vehicle with a very deep front "dish" type wheel on front face would be a minus ET value as it sits so far outward from mounting face.

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A snowHead

A snowHead

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I've got 3PMSF tyres on my AWD Volvo... never had a problem... having read this thread, I'm now ordering snow chains as well...!

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Just to complete the comments, so to speak. If your vehicle's spec is such that it can't take (conventional) chains, then you're left with two options:

(a) get a second, new set of wheels and winter tyres¹ in a spec that can take chains or
(b) get front-fitting (i.e. on the front of the wheel) chains e.g.

• Spikes Spider Easy / Alpine / Sport
• Thule K-Summit
• Weissenfels Trak Auto / Trak SUV / Automatika
• König K-Summit
• Polaire (can't seem to get their website to render properly)

and various others (don't assume my list is accurate - this is just from memory)

Best thing is to go to the manufacturers' websites first, and get a list of the ones that are front-fitting. Most sites also have a configurator. Then do a web search for the specific products you're interested in. I know there are many good specialist chain distributors but not all are competent and some specialise only in certain manufacturers, so I'd always go to the manufacturers' site first.

Don't just go just by product names, like 'easy' or 'quick' - this may just mean that the chains self-centre or self-tension.

[1] It doesn't make sense to get a new, separate set of winter wheels and then fit new all-seasons. Even if they are all-seasons with the 3-peaks-and-snowflake designation. These still won't be as snow-biased as 'pure' winter tyres because they have to concede some snow capability in order to be usable in the summer. And since you're not going to use them in the summer, why make the concession?

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Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

Having been in Madonna Di Campiglio with a car with winter tyres on 3 years ago after an enormous dump of snow the day before leaving I found that winter tyres are great with just normal snow cover but it wouldnt go up the hill to get out of the village without fitting the chains ...I believe that if you are traveling round mountainous Europe in the depths of winter you ideally need both...I bought a set of Spikes Spider for my new 18" wheels ...I better look at the video again as its a year since I bought them ...

After all it is free

Even though i have winter tyres on their own rims, I have recently ordered 2 pairs of snow chains for my RWD car and will be practicing fitting them before we head out to the alps this winter...

@nbt,
Two pairs? If the 2nd pair is for steering/braking in bad conditions then my reaction would be to stay indoors until the snow ploughs had made their first pass!

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@nbt, RWD? Are you sure you need both? Check the manual of your car.

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During the winter of 2019, I think that was the year, we had our 4WD car with winter tyres in Austria and frequently had to use chains as well - as were local residents. Generally the winter tyres have been sufficient but not then, and when you need them you need them.

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@mooney058, oh dangly bits, I just assumed that 2 pairs would be neeed - RWD for power and front for steering. Manual actually says rear only. Just outside of the returns period too, grrrr, not had time to even test fit them with being busy.

Still they were only £50 a pair so not exactly breaking the bank

https://www.snowchainsandsocks.co.uk/ideal-9mm-black-snow-chains-9.html

@nbt Yes, you're fine with un-chained fronts on your RWD, because you've got winters on the front, so you will usually have enough traction to steer.

The problem for people with RWD cars and summer tyres is that when they put chains on the rear driven wheels, the fronts are still slick summer tyres and they can't steer in the snow. Snow socks will help with this, so they would first put their socks on, then resort to chains if the socks aren't enough. One reason why socks alone don't obviate chains. The problem is not quite so bad for FWD cars with summer tyres on, as when they fit their chains to the front it's the rear wheels which are skating over the snow. However, even then, there will be a tendency for the rear-end to oversteer badly on corners.

You know it makes sense.

I've been following this thread as I'm driving to the alps this Xmas for the first time, so thanks for the advice all. I've got a VW CC with 18inch rims and not much space above or behind the tyres for chains, in fact the manual said change the wheels to thinner steel wheels.

snowchainstore.co.uk website said I could use some Polaire sidewall fitting chains instead and I've put on some winter tyres also.

So for my first time driving to the alps I'm kinda hoping for a heavy dump to try them out in anger!

So now I've got winters and chains sorted is there a reason for socks also? Would they be better than just winters tyres on their own or am I over thinking it.

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@JohnF, in broad terms, socks are effectively trying to match a winter tire but for occasional use.

I can't see that they'd offer you any realistic advantage over your stated equipment level above.

A snowHead

@JohnF, don’t bother with socks if you have proper (3PMSF) winters. They are not better than winter tyres. Proper winter tyres are OK for most of situations, chains at low speeds, local access roads only.

A snowHead

There was a post in another thread about a tyre place near LHR that was renting out winter tyres for 10p a mile. Does anyone have the link as I thought this may be a viable option (for those of us who make a single trip per annum to the alps by car and don't have excess sorage space for a 2nd set of wheels).

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@ski3, @mooney058, aight the socks would be overkill on winters, makes sense. Ty

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My partner had an Audi A3 with no space behind the wheel and we bought Thule k summit and they fitted very easily and did the job
She had Michelin Cross Climate tyres as well but the police wanted us to fit the chains so we did. very quick job as you only place the chain on the road contact part of the tyre and lock it to a wheel nut and drive off slowly and it self centres itself

We used the same of a Land Rover Discovery 3 with Michelin Cross Climate, again at police request

I've since bought a Range Rover Sport and it has the same issue of big wheels with no space behind but due to big wheel sizes and the stupid price of winter tyres and wheels, we've bought another set of K Summit to fit this car

The times we have had to fit chains have been when it was still dumping snow on a busy transfer day when the police are out plus getting around the car park in the resort which they tend to leave until transfer days

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

After all it is free

@Judwin,
Very "off topic" but in the circumstances you cite of 1991, wasn't it all the fault of the tour opertors that so many coaches didn't arrive until the Tuesady?

I did a season in Val Thorens some yrs ago and just used winter tyres (pneus contact, they were called) on my XR3i Smile

Didn't even own or use any chains...

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Idiots without / who can't put on chains & think winter tyres will be ok

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