 Poster: A snowHead
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stewart woodward, Is that not just for peak weeks? Thought it was nigh on impossible without french equivalence...
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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heidiky, you can work for 3 (4?) years as a "stagiare" with a BASI 2 + the test technique.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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hi all , been working in Italy this week so didn't have a lot of spare time to stay on top of this thread. I have drafted a letter to the Legal Director of BASI and a second one to the CEO.
If any current BASI members would like to review the drafts with a view to sending in a jointly signed letter, or if someone wanted to add their own take on things sending in a separate letter would of course be fine but in my view the more signatories the better. Please email me at scott (at) insideoutskiing.com Please give me your full name, BASI number and confirm you are a current full member of BASI.
I don't think it is appropriate to debate the contents of such letters on a public forum so we can do via an email ring.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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we have about a dozen people signed up to this letter and have a final draft out for review and are now sending to a wider audience, if you are a BASI member and would like to participate please email me at the address above.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| stewart woodward wrote: |
| beanie1 wrote: |
Even in France BASI is working on introducing British training centres, which will allow L2s to work in France for certain ski schools. |
Currently in the Espace Killy we have the following ski schools which will employ BASI L2's;
3 ESF schools, 2 EV2, Top Ski, Snowfun, 333.
All these ski schools currently employ/have employed/will employ BASI members.
Why do we need British Training centers? |
Is Test Technique a pre-requisite?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| slikedges wrote: |
| stewart woodward wrote: |
| beanie1 wrote: |
Even in France BASI is working on introducing British training centres, which will allow L2s to work in France for certain ski schools. |
Currently in the Espace Killy we have the following ski schools which will employ BASI L2's;
3 ESF schools, 2 EV2, Top Ski, Snowfun, 333.
All these ski schools currently employ/have employed/will employ BASI members.
Why do we need British Training centers? |
Is Test Technique a pre-requisite? |
Yes TT is a pre-requisite for any training center in France including a British training center.
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slikedges, yes
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| stewart woodward wrote: |
| Why do we need British Training centers? |
Four reasons:
You have choice. In most other places the choice is ESF or ESF. There are good ESFs. There are bad ESFs.
You need "training centre" status to have staggieres in France. It's reasonable that a trainee should be "trained" by an establishment that oeprates within the same training system as they are seeking to gain qualifications and by people who understand the system and criteria within which they will be assessed. It's simply nonsense to pretend that a BASI L2 will be trained in the same way by someone who is a French Trainer within the French system - as opposed to a BASI Trainer. (I'm not arguing that they won't make the skiing better. Just that the BASI exams are criteria based.)
It's manifestly unfair that somewhere like BASS Morzine, which has a load of highly qualified BASI Trainers should be prevented from offering training.
The current system ensures that only French organisations can take super-numerate profits from their trainees (the punters pay the same in ESF - regardless of whether you get a staggiere or full cert, but trainees get paid less than full certs with the profits going to the full certs). That's just plain economic anti-competitve behaviour.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Just checking! 
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[quote="FlyingStantoni"]
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| It's manifestly unfair that somewhere like BASS Morzine, which has a load of highly qualified BASI Trainers should be prevented from offering training. |
I agree with you. If BASS, or others, fulfill the criteria for a training center they should be allowed to operate. Does Simon Butler in Megeve not already do this?
| Quote: |
| The current system ensures that only French organisations can take super-numerate profits from their trainees (the punters pay the same in ESF - regardless of whether you get a staggiere or full cert, but trainees get paid less than full certs with the profits going to the full certs). That's just plain economic anti-competitve behaviour. |
The profit from the staggieres are re-invested in the staggieres by providing free of charge training. If you are a training center you have a legal obligation to train your staggieres.
I undersatnd that British ski schools operating in Switzerland employ L2/L3's pay them less than L4's whilst still charging the client the same rate.
If British ski schools become training centers will they offer a differing pricing structure for L2/L3's 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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stewart woodward,
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If British ski schools become training centers will they offer a differing pricing structure for L2/L3's
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I am not aware of any ski schools who offer clients the choice of a variable rate. It is an interesting notion; does the qualification of the instructor matter that much to the client, especially when there is a cost implication?
If the client does become willing to pay more, at what point in their skill performance progression are they when they make that decision?
Perhaps Ski Schools should adopt a policy such as: pay the basic price and if you think the lesson was especially good then pay a little bit extra as a bonus, but then would the client pay the bonus to the instructor or the ski school?
The only situation that I do know where the client can choose to pay a high rate or a lower rate is in golf (but it may also exist in 'resort' tennis schools). The PGA pro will be full rate but her / his assistant is normally about 50-66% of the full rate. The assistants don't often find themselves lacking for business, especially for 'playing' lessons which I would reckon is in a similar vein to a ski lesson, ie on the course and on the mountain.
AND if it does get down to how much the client has to pay - is (having an instructor who has passed) the race test really worth that much more cash to the client?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Bindingcheck wrote: |
AND if it does get down to how much the client has to pay - is (having an instructor who has passed) the race test really worth that much more cash to the client? |
Bindingcheck, I'd pay more to have some full certs - like a staatliche... I'd expect to be charged less for a non-full cert... and certainly for non-ISIA level instruction... I got banned from skiing with anything less than ISIA a long time ago... it was making me ski worse to follow them around the hill even if I ignored the poor advice they gave me... My instructors would quiz me and often them(mine were trainers) on what they were doing... I was told quite clearly by a couple of race dept guys to avoid following the lessons around unless I already knew the instructor(I knew the full certs)... they got sick of seeing my skiing messed up just as I made the improvement they thought I needed(we often visited the race guys as they worked on the hill - they were friends of ours - and my instructors sometimes used them as sounding boards while they tried to work out how to teach me)...
You would struggle a lot to get me to ski with most PSIA instructors... I'm not sold on them in general at least from what I've seen... there are good ones but it s so hard to pick and the certs guarantee little...
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As far as i know the training centres never got off the ground because any ski school that took on the badge so to speak of Training Centre would have to cease any work they did until the (inevitable) french legal challenge was dealt with. That could put a whole school of ISTD's out of work for a season so none went for it in the end.
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You know it makes sense.
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jjc james, what i heard was that the Brit training centres couldnt find anyone with Test technique passes to come work for them.... why train SL for test technique when you can work in switzerland for same money and train for Eurotest and get that out of the way, I know one guy who had an ET pass and was a staggiere and was going to get the boot because he didnt have a TT pass (he completed his ISTD instead)...
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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jjc james, skimottaret,
I'm puzzled about this test technique thing. I can't understand why you need to pass the Test Technique to work as part of a British Training Centre which is located within Europe. I can understand why you need to pass the Test Technique if you want to enter the French Training system, their training system is their game so you have to play by their rules.
Is this another FEMPS thing that BASI have for some reason agreed to? The Brussels Agreement only mentions the Test Technique as being part of a solution for someone who wishes to commence the "Incorporation into the French curriculum of the First-grade sports instructor's certificate"
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Poster: A snowHead
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Bindingcheck, the training centres are nothing to do with FEMPS or the Brussels Agreement. I don't know the full details, but understand that having TT as the entry level was only a temporary measure, and once the precedent was establised L2 would become the level required.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| beanie1 wrote: |
| Bindingcheck wrote: |
jjc james, skimottaret,
I'm puzzled about this test technique thing. I can't understand why you need to pass the Test Technique to work as part of a British Training Centre which is located within Europe. I can understand why you need to pass the Test Technique if you want to enter the French Training system, their training system is their game so you have to play by their rules.
Is this another FEMPS thing that BASI have for some reason agreed to? The Brussels Agreement only mentions the Test Technique as being part of a solution for someone who wishes to commence the "Incorporation into the French curriculum of the First-grade sports instructor's certificate" |
Bindingcheck, the training centres are nothing to do with FEMPS or the Brussels Agreement. I don't know the full details, but understand that having TT as the entry level was only a temporary measure, and once the precedent was establised L2 would become the level required. |
Intriguing.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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beanie1, has a precedent been established ? are their any L2 or 3's working in France for the training centres of BASS or NewGen?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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The convenient thing about requiring the TT (from the French perspective) is that, unless you have a racing background, you're probably going to find the TT tougher than (many/most of?) the L3 requirements. Potentially fewer courses of course to get it, but it's not trivial even for a decent skier. While I'm broadly supportive of the ET as part of the full cert qual, the requirement for the TT as an entry threshold to even start the serious training process is pure protectionism. It may make sense for the way the French do their training, but not for the way we do ours. The French entry qual for "stagiere"s, i.e. instructors in on-the-job training, is the TT, ours is L2.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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skimottaret, no they all turned against it the second they realised they would be out of business until a court decision was made on the legal challenge that would come with having L2's and L3's without the TT. Hence there are no Training Centres.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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jjc james, fair enough , might a been a mixture of the two reasons perhaps. might have been easier to employ L2 3s with TT to avoid the situation you describe but if no TT passes around kinda too risky.
you know of many BASI TT passes. i can only think of one guy who got it...
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skimottaret, I know one (who now has her BASI ISTD) who did start out teaching using L2+TT.
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| stewart woodward wrote: |
| I agree with you. If BASS, or others, fulfill the criteria for a training center they should be allowed to operate. Does Simon Butler in Megeve not already do this? |
The ability to run a training centre in France is linked the ski school having ski instructors with French qualifications. Equivalence doesn't count.
| stewart woodward wrote: |
| The profit from the staggieres are re-invested in the staggieres by providing free of charge training. If you are a training center you have a legal obligation to train your staggieres. |
Could I amend that slightly...
| stewart woodward wrote: |
| Some of the profit from the staggieres are re-invested in the staggieres by providing free of charge training. If you are a training center you have a legal obligation to train your staggieres. |
| stewart woodward wrote: |
| I undersatnd that British ski schools operating in Switzerland employ L2/L3's pay them less than L4's whilst still charging the client the same rate. If British ski schools become training centers will they offer a differing pricing structure for L2/L3's |
I doubt there would be differential charging. But I also doubt that it would quite as inequitable as the ESF Morzine arrangements where:
- Everyone gets paid the same - 50 euros an hour.
- Everyone then "voluntarily" gives 45 euros back to cover running costs and into the profit pool.
- Profit pool is then shared out on the basis of qualification and time served.
- New staggieres can expect to get 5 euros back out of the 30 euros they put in.
- Top qualified old hands can expect to recover (substantially) more than they put in.
ESF Morzine has an awful lot of staggieres.
I understand, though, that not all ESFs are run the same way.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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skimottaret, I know 10 off the top of my head.
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Knowing the way things are "arranged" in France, I wouldn't be at all surprised if there were a fair number of stagieres working without TT.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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jjc, thats good to hear !!
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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skimottaret, yeah quite a few guys work for ski schools in france with the TT as they can make at bit more cash and be where they want to be straight away, all the ones i know wouldn't have a problem with the ET.
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jjc james, so all ex child racers then
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You know it makes sense.
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6-4 split out of the 10 i know,,,,6 that raced,,,,only 4 of them exempt from ET.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I have not been to a TT before but i have been told it is much easier than the ET?
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Poster: A snowHead
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| jjc wrote: |
| I have not been to a TT before but i have been told it is much easier than the ET? |
Ask R555MAC, he passed the TT last winter and took the ET at the start of this one.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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no danger JJC. TT proper hard. I saw one where literally only a small handful were passing. Loads of training required....in reality as hard, if not harder than ET. A country mile tougher than all isia courses...
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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hi all we now have 18 members signed up to the letter to the BASI Legal Director
Plan on finalizing this week and sending off probably monday, if you are interested please act now.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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skimottaret, have sent you a PM 
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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booooo long live the Eurotest!!!
hehe 
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long live the Eurotest!!!
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Here here!!!
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Re Test Technique. According to a GB former World Cup racer the Test Technique is harder to do but easier to pass. Seems to be an oxymoron but the explanation goes like this.
The techniques required for Slalom skiing are more specialised than the techniques required for GS, ie, GS skiing is more like 'normal' skiing than slalom is except of course for the speed. AND course management and tactics for Slalom skiing is much harder than GS. AND the fact that gates are constantly coming at one 'full face' makes it much more intimidating. AND there is a much greater variety in the way that a course can be set which makes it more challenging for the athlete. To become competent at Slalom you need to have had a lot of experience going through gates and courses.
BUT once you have the techniques and the management and the tactics and the experience and have overcome the intimidation then passing is easier due to the fact that the pass mark is 'slower'
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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heidiky, So are you happy to repeat the ET once every 3 years and loose your licence to teach if you fail?
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kevindonkleywood, on that basis should we have to redo every course we have done every 3 years, teach, tech, MS, Coaching, 2nd disc? That would be $$$$$$$
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FAQ
