slikedges, I have not managed to convince him to write the book yet
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Oh, where are my manners?... I should have said - thanks hugely for all that info, guys. Fair bit of it I sort of knew/suspected already, but it's always good to have it spelled out in B&W to make you think about it again, and get the order of importance of it all.
rjs, I'm sure I remember one of the courses at the Olympics had a huge flat bit right in the middle of it, where it was vital to carry good speed onto it - or was that a GS course?
BTW something like the power skate was what I was trying out three weeks ago and got a bit wrong (tip of inside ski a bit down I guess, which didn't combine too well with a bit of slightly looser matting) - and hence the cast on my right hand currently making typing a little awkward , and preventing me being at training with rob@rar tonight .
(This - 10 days - is now the longest I've been off skis for just over two years...grrrr!)
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
GrahamN wrote:
... training with rob@rar tonight .
Not that I managed to ski until the end of the session. Retired injured, having discovered how mean plastic can be!
Oh dear - nothing more than a bruise I hope. Time to break out the wallet for a bit more armour?
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
GrahamN wrote:
Oh dear - nothing more than a bruise I hope. Time to break out the wallet for a bit more armour?
Nothing bad, just a lump on my head and a very stiff neck this morning. All part of the learning process I suppose. I just wish I knew how I managed it!
Did you get spat out, perhaps highsided, or an unexpected buildup of pressure sortof event?
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Too much thinking about Newtonian physics meant that I missed the first gate in the hairpin, then got tripped up by the second one which spat me out sideways! I blame all you guys in this thread
After all it is free
After all it is free
rob@rar, serves you right, Einsteinian mechanics is the real deal!
Hope you're not too bruised.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
laundryman,
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
rob@rar wrote:
FastMan, thanks for that. I think my two main problems are dropping back on my heels making everything a bit more difficult, and not enough experience to read a course to know how to use my limited technique to best advantage. I'll look at the Mahre video although I fear that I have trouble with every word in the phrase "linked athletic recoveries"!
I have some balance drills that can help fore/aft balance, and moving forward at the transition.. Like I keep saying, "Coming soon". Dang, life is busy these days.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
GrahamN wrote:
FYI: I think it may be useful to give our racing experience for a bit of context:
rob@rar has done a few weeks intensive GS training on snow over the last few years. Is a nice tidy skier. Has recently started SL training on plastic.
GrahamN started SL training on plastic just over two years ago, 1-2 1-2 hour sessions a week, and has completed about 20 races at Regional level, and this year a couple at National. Started from a much lower technical base than Rob - certainly as far as piste skiing, as is/was primarily an off-piste/backcountry skier. Has had 3-4 days SL training on snow, and one of the same GS weeks as Rob.
Yep, thanks, that's helpful
Quote:
FastMan wrote:
The goal after getting late is to get back on line with a little speed dumping as possible. Sometimes there will be room to stay clean on the edge, though low, and gradually get it back together within the next few gates. That should always be the first option to be explored and pursued.
I've been told that "that works fine for GS, but for SL you need to do whatever's required to get back on line by the next gate".
Yes, pretty much right. The more vertical distance between turning poles, the more time and space you have for creative line usage. In downhill you see some pretty interesting lines employed at times. In slalom it is very much a survival thing,,, do what you have to do to stay in the course. But as your base skills improve, you will find that not only survival will be a goal, but doing so without dumping speed. You'll find that as your base skills expand, new means by which you are able to save yourself, and your speed, spring forth kind of on their own, and you find yourself occasionally standing at the bottom of the course thinking, "what the hell was that and how the hell did I do it?"
Quote:
I guess, as with most things, it depends on circumstances. If you're just coming up to a flat section, dumping speed is the worst possible idea, as you'll get punished for that on every gate until you hit another steep bit, so staying late for another gate or two is probably the less damaging opion.
Yes, and the importance of not dumping speed going onto the flats is something that needs to be considered and planned for well before getting to the flats. Sometimes courses will straighten out as you go onto the flats, and you can straighten the line just before leaving the pitch, to milk a bit of extra speed off the pitch that can be carried across the flats. But other times there will be a tricky gate at the bottom of the pitch that doesn't allow for that, and must be skied with a disciplined line to avoid dumping speed at such a crucial point. These terrain change points are key areas during inspection.
Quote:
Question I really ought to know the answer to: what's the rise line ? If the projection of the fall line above the gate you're about to turn around, isn't that way too late to start your turn? We did an exercise last year where we had to start the turn as we went through the fall line below the gate we'd just passed - made a huge difference. This may be specific to the typical dryslope corridor course spacing - typically 2-2.5 metres offset - but shouldn't you still be starting your turn no later than a couple of metres prior to the (SL) gate? - and even that sounds a bit late to me.
YES, EXCELLENT OBSERVATION.
"Projection of the falline above the gate". That's a good description, very simple. I've always said the same thing you just did. That in arc to arc skiing, the rise line is too late to begin your turn.
The advice of "waiting for the rise line" is simply a mental cue coaches use to help skiers who are starting their turns too early, and then double turning, to delay the start of their turns so they can make a single clean arc. If, however, you literally did not start any engagement until the rise line, you would be in the trees. More accurate would be a statement such as, "prior to the rise line you start to develop edge/platform/arc,,, at the rise line you get on it".
Coaching cues are not always completely accurate, but are more designed to implant a mental suggestion in an athlete that will foster a particular change.
This cue can also be used to look for extra speed, as delaying the start of the turn can encourage a straighter line. If you can still be clean with this straighter line, your speed be given a nice boost.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
FastMan, thanks for those insights - always very useful. As for putting a tough gate/combination before a flat section, that seems to be an unwritten rule at one of the dryslopes in our summer series - half the course is virtually flat and there's always a real stinker (if you don't get the line just perfect) to take you on to it .
Also the point about different recovery techniques as your skill base improves rings very true: last year, and very early this season I'd brace, skid until back in control and then resume (i.e. typical recreational reflexes), hopefully with enough space to make the next gate; through this season I've been starting to get the reflexes in place to up the edge angle, rebalance the weight distribution and ski through the problem. Still doesn't always work though .
That difference in coaching cues is also something that comes up in several of these technique threads - and I guess relates to the instruction/teaching/coaching thread. Different people have different faults and so need different cues/drills/exercises to resolve them. If you've a tendency to turn too early you need something to get you to start turning later, if you're a bit late on the turn (which I guess is more common - it certainly is in our club), you need something different. It's amazing the difference in some people's skiing when one of us is there yelling "turn...turn...turn" at them.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
slikedges wrote:
FastMan, there's one it doesn't answer: What happened to applying pressure early? Firstly, do you even recognise it? Should it have never existed and has been debunked? Was it misguided and got superseded? Was it spurious and got subsumed? Is it still there but been set into a new philosophical framework? BTW do feel free to redirect me to a book to buy or webpages etc if there's just too much miscontrued to know where to begin!
Hmmmm,,, how to go about addressing this. Let's try it like this.
What is pressure? Basically it's just the load we're applying to the snow through our skis.
Where does pressure come from? A few common sources exist in skiing. Just the act of gravity attempting to drive our body down into the ground is one. Otherwise known as our body weight.
Another is the byproduct of turning. Turning results in pressure being applied to the snow in levels greater than that which comes from our body weight alone. The faster we travel, and the sharper we turn, the higher the pressure will be.
And the final source is one which has been discussed here already; extension. By extending our leg/legs, we can produce a temporary spike in the amount of pressure we're applying to the snow. I say temporary because extension creates a change in the direction of the momentum of our Center of Mass (CM). That new direction is away from our feet. When extending comes to an end, the away from the feet momentum it created results in a temporary lightning of pressure on the snow. This can be easily witnessed by extending while standing on a bathroom scale. As you extend, the scale reading rises. When extension stops, the reading falls.
And how do we manage where pressure is being applied? Easy. By moving our CM (Center of Mass) we can change how pressure is distributed on our skis. If we move our CM to the right, our right foot/ski will support a greater portion of the existing pressure than it had been. If we move our CM to the left, the left foot/ski receives an extra dose of pressure. If we move our CM forward, pressure moves closer to the front of our foot, and the shovel of the skis bite into the snow more firmly. Move our CM back, and our heels feel more load, and our ski tails start doing more of the work. This is a very important concept for everyone to understand, as it's the principle behind which balance skills are developed.
So then, let's talk about "early pressure" By early, we're referring to the period during, or immediately following, the transition from one turn to the next. It's a period before any significant turning of the skis into the direction of the new turn has taken place. This early pressure thing is an important concept to understand and master. If one wants to successfully execute arc to arc carved turns, or even high quality steered turns, one will need to employ early pressure. As I've stated here on Snowheads before, non-pressured pivots into the falline are the nemesis of the intermediate skier. Developing early pressure and edge engagement before employing any twisting of the skis downhill is an evasive skill for the average skier.
OK, so how do we do it? Well, first we have to get our skis flipped from their uphill edges (as they were in the previous turn) to their downhill edges (as they will need to be for the coming turn). This is easy to do. By either relaxing your downhill (old outside) leg, or very slightly extending your uphill (old inside) leg, you will disrupt your state of balance (more on this in a thread to come), and your body will instantly begin to tip downhill, automatically flipping the skis on to their downhill edges as it does.
Now here's the tricky part. As your body tips downhill, and your skis flip edges, you will need to change the state of flexion in your legs. In the previous turn, because you were tipped toward the inside of the turn, your inside leg needed to be flexed more than outside leg so that both feet could maintain contact with the snow. Now that a new turn is beginning, the roles of the legs will reverse. What in the prior turn was the inside leg now becomes the outside leg, and their states of flexion will have to change accordingly as tipping into the new turn commences. Subtly extending the uphill (old inside) leg as tipping takes place keeps the foot/ski in contact with the snow as the CM gradually moves further away from that foot. It also keeps enough pressure on that ski to keep it bent and engaged until the turn starts and the elevated pressure turns produce serve to provide the pressure needed.
One thing to keep in mind when extending early in the turn; KEEP IT SUBTLE. Just enough to keep the ski in contact with the snow as you tip into the new turn is all that's needed. It takes very little pressure to flatten a ski to the snow. As long as you keep the ski pressed lightly on the snow, it will engage into the new turn, and the turn forces you need to temper your tipping and re-establish your balance will emerge. Over do the extension, make it too aggressive, and you will loose the pressure you seek, just as on the bathroom scale.
The other tool you can use to maintain that early pressure is angulation. Angulation is the act of moving upper parts of the body toward the outside of the turn, as lower parts of the body tip into the turn. As I explained earlier, moving the CM toward a particular foot moves pressure toward that foot. That's what angulation will do for you. As the skis flip to the downhill edges, and the lower body tips down the hill, if you angulate with your upper body up the hill you will direct more pressure to your uphill (old inside/new outside) foot. This will help maintain that early pressure you seek. Perhaps little tiger will share her experiences with riding her first pair of full blown GS race skis, and how she had to use a little knee angulation to get the puppies to engage at the beginning of her turns.
Yikes, this post got a bit windy. Hope it didn't get too boring or too technical. Happy trails.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
FastMan, Question put by someone who is patently a better skier than I am. Answer perfectly understood by me. Good result.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Hurtle wrote:
FastMan, Question put by someone who is patently a better skier than I am. Answer perfectly understood by me. Good result.
Thanks for letting me know, Hurtle. I was hoping.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
FastMan, thank you, I really appreciate your taking the time to answer my simplistic questions! It's as I understood it to be really, early pressure on the new edge gets the skis engaged and set for the turn. How about the extension though: would one go slower if there was only very little extension? Which direction to extend in? Also, maximum extension at what point of the turn? When to start to angulate? I know I have a tendency not to extend enough and also not progressively enough, together with a tendency to angulate too early (all a legacy of old style skiing I think). On GS skis I had to be very patient, try to feel a platform with ankles and knees but with weight forwards, then extend but kept on feeling like I was going to fall over into the turn and really had to fight my instinct to then rotate. So many questions, so little time!
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
FastMan wrote:
Yikes, this post got a bit windy. Hope it didn't get too boring or too technical. Happy trails.
I'm with LT, you should just write it all in a book. It'd be easier to find that way, and I wouldn't have to go looking all over the internet to get a good read...
Later
GREG
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Yikes, this post got a bit windy. Hope it didn't get too boring or too technical. Happy trails.
I'm with LT, you should just write it all in a book. It'd be easier to find that way, and I wouldn't have to go looking all over the internet to get a good read...
Later
GREG
Dang, a guy just can't hide.
Hi Greg, and thanks. Everyone, I'd like to introduce HeluvaSkier. He's a past student of mine. He's an excellent skier, and has developed into an very knowledgeable technician of the sport. Hopefully he will share some of that knowledge with us here. Welcome to Snowheads, Greg!
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
HeluvaSkier, Welcome to s. Lucky you, to have been taught by FastMan!
Hurtle, makes you kind of does it not? Spend a season skiing with Fastman 6 days a week... Including pre-season training...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
I have just started to take SL lessons on plastic and one thing has struck me with regards to race technique vs general skiing
I am tall (6'4") and spent a lot of time last year on snow trying to improve my angulation and eliminate banking in long radius turns. On plastic the race coach is telling me to stay taller and reduce the angulation to get my feet moving quicker through the turns.
I can understand not getting too low and getting stuck in the turns but thought more angulation was a good thing for taller people to shorten turn radius.
As a race technique for SL skiing does staying tall and inclining as opposed to lower and angulating make sense?
After all it is free
After all it is free
skimottaret wrote:
As a race technique for SL skiing does staying tall and inclining as opposed to lower and angulating make sense?
Not to me it doesn't. If you incline rather than angulate surely you're going to have to move your upper body a long way in a short space of time to make each gate? Will be interested to see what the more experienced skiers think...
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
skimottaret, You are trying to derive general principles from some very specific dry slope instruction.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
skimottaret,
Quote:
As a race technique for SL skiing does staying tall and inclining as opposed to lower and angulating make sense?
Staying tall certainly makes sense, and if you can get away with less angulation then transition from turn to turn can be performed quicker. You should be able to reduce the amount of angulation required on the dryslope by getting your hips up and forward through the transition and therefore being able to stand on the ski more in the top part of the turn (i.e. - if you pressure the ski earlier, it'll be more bent for longer instead of a lesser amount of time spent at greater angulation).
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
Quote:
You should be able to reduce the amount of angulation required on the dryslope by getting your hips up and forward through the transition
That makes sense as this is a big problem i have and may be the specific area being worked on by the coach. I tend to waist break and the inner hip lags. thanks..
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
skimottaret, I would have thought - just a guess - that as you're talking about plastic SL where the courses are very straight (have to be) then to angulate from one side to the other simply takes too long! I think everyone uses more knee on plastic, and if you're 6'4" and I'm 5'5" it's going to take that much longer to mover your hips all the way over there .... SL racing doesn't bear much resemblance to regular skiing IMO.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
skimottaret, as one of the coaches at Gloucester, I guess iblair is the expert here. I do have to say I'm a little surprised though, and would tend to agree with rob@rar. Possibly it's that you've worked on the angulation quite hard and have overdone it? My take on all this, and what I have generally been told, is that you would angulate more on plastic and incline more on snow. The majority of input most get at our club is to angulate more and incline/bank less - but that is starting from a typically stiff recreational skier's base. But when I did a GS (OK different scenario, so not a fair comparison) course on snow I was told to stop angulating and start inclining much more, but with a broad ski base to allow for balance adjustment. One of the other instructors though (who had passed his Eurotest the previous season) was very much in the "angulate" camp, with a fairly narrow stance, and adjusted balance by changing the amount of angulation through the turn.
The discriminator here is probably the "plumb line" test. Hang a plum line from your belt (or maybe a bit higher), and the bob should always point between your feet. When your body is aligned linearly your centre of mass is pretty much in the centre of your body, i.e. where the plumb line is attached. As you go round a corner the centrifugal force pushes it out, and you incline to keep the combination of weight and centrifugal force (which points along the plumb line) pointing between your skis. If you need a higher edge angle though to achieve the turn radius you want, and do that by angulating, unless you go faster the plumb will fall inside your skis and you'll topple to the inside of the turn. So you need to do something to move the COM further out, which you can do by moving your upper body toward the outside of the turn - i.e. angulating. The difference between snow and plastic is that you'd generally be going faster on snow, so more inclination there and less angulation.
This doesn't seem to me to have much to do with breaking at the waist though. I've definitely found that staying low helps, in that the COM is lower and so you have less distance to move it to get from one edge to another - but I get roundly criticised for it from some quarters . As I've got better though I've managed that more with ankle/knee flex and can keep less of a forward angle at the waist - minimise the up/down movements of the hips and get as much as possible done with just the legs. At higher levels it may be much more of a problem, but at my level staying low allows my legs to move into the turn way quicker. By far my fastest runs have been by keeping low as possible consistent with allowing free leg movement and keeping the upper body as still as possible - sort of like that description of a swan: all serene above the waterline and all hell going on below. Now I think of it, at the last race I was at looking at your star Dan going round the first corner (quite sharp) and into the opening combination and I doubt the top of his head was more than four feet from the ground.
I'm also interested you find your inner hip lags with the waist break - my problem last year was the exact opposite in that my inner hip led very strongly and I sort of left the outer hip and leg behind - fortunately I mostly got that sorted out last winter.
That's a bit of a ramble I'm afraid - and probably full of misconceptions - but it's sort of where I am at the moment. One of the projects for the winter is to get myself to do basically what iblair talked about around the transition.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
FastMan wrote:
Hi Greg, and thanks. Everyone, I'd like to introduce HeluvaSkier. He's a past student of mine. He's an excellent skier, and has developed into an very knowledgeable technician of the sport. Hopefully he will share some of that knowledge with us here. Welcome to Snowheads, Greg!
Thanks for the intro Fastman. I try to keep tabs everywhere. I have actually been registered here for a long time so I could read the threads, but haven't posted until now. For those reading don't let Fastman kid you I'm still a student and have much to learn, that is for sure. This place is cool. I'll have to swing by here more often.
Later
GREG
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
GrahamN wrote:
...My take on all this, and what I have generally been told, is that you would angulate more on plastic and incline more on snow. The majority of input most get at our club is to angulate more and incline/bank less - but that is starting from a typically stiff recreational skier's base. But when I did a GS (OK different scenario, so not a fair comparison) course on snow I was told to stop angulating and start inclining much more, but with a broad ski base to allow for balance adjustment. ...
I've been told the same thing - incline on snow. Not bank though.
GrahamN wrote:
...I've definitely found that staying low helps, in that the COM is lower and so you have less distance to move it to get from one edge to another - but I get roundly criticised for it from some quarters . ...At higher levels it may be much more of a problem, but at my level staying low allows my legs to move into the turn way quicker. By far my fastest runs have been by keeping low as possible consistent with allowing free leg movement and keeping the upper body as still as possible - sort of like that description of a swan: all serene above the waterline and all hell going on below. ...
Do you feel you're crossing over or under?
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
GrahamN wrote:
Quote:
I do have to say I'm a little surprised though, and would tend to agree with rob@rar. Possibly it's that you've worked on the angulation quite hard and have overdone it? My take on all this, and what I have generally been told, is that you would angulate more on plastic and incline more on snow.
Just to be clear, I'm not advocating inclination on plastic (and definitely not banking). Just that you don't need as much angulation as on snow and often you won't need to use much at all if you can get the ski onto the new edge and working high in the turn. Ofcourse, any really good racer will be able to use some pretty extreme angulation as a useful tool for when things do get tricky
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
GrahamN,
Quote:
from a typically stiff recreational skier's base
I think that sums it up I have been very skiddy on my first couple of goes on the plastic and perhaps trying a bit too hard by getting low and "stuck" and then breaking away. I definately dont angulate too much!! I agree with the above comments regarding inclining versus angulation. I recon the coach is perhaps just simply trying to get me to feel the edges more on plastic and start to get the turn started earlier..
iblair,
Quote:
You should be able to reduce the amount of angulation required on the dryslope by getting your hips up and forward through the transition and therefore being able to stand on the ski more in the top part of the turn
I think that nails it for me....and is where the coach is coming from
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
slikedges wrote:
FastMan, thank you, I really appreciate your taking the time to answer my simplistic questions! It's as I understood it to be really, early pressure on the new edge gets the skis engaged and set for the turn. How about the extension though: would one go slower if there was only very little extension?
I assume you refer to the extending of the uphill (old inside) leg during the transition?
If yes,,, then yes, you're right. This will all be covered in detail when I start the ILE (inside leg extension) thread. But for now I will tell you; the slower you extend, the slower you will tip into the new turn. Why? Because extending the old inside leg during the transition transfers weight to that extending leg. That transfer of weight/pressure is what creates the disruption in ones state of balance which causes the body to tip downhill into the new turn. The more/faster you extend that old inside leg, the more/faster weight is transferred from the old outside (downhill) foot to the old inside (uphill) foot. The more weight transferred to the old inside foot, the more out of balance one becomes, and thus the faster the body will tip.
Try this:
- Stand up, with all your weight on your right foot, and feet hip width apart. This simulates the normal weight distribution during a left turn. Racers call a left turn a "right footed turn", because their weight is highly concentrated on their right foot when turning left.
- WITHOUT moving your hips to the left, slowly push down on your left foot until you feel a bit of weight transfer to that foot.
- Feel how you immediately tip to the right as you start to press down on the left (what would be old inside) foot? This tipping to the right mimics the tipping that occurs on snow when transitioning from a left turn into a right turn. The effect can be created on snow in the same manner; via extending the old inside leg.
- Now play around with how fast you extend (how hard you push down on the unweighted foot). Experience the differences in how fast you tip, and how very little transfer of weight will actually initiate tipping into the new turn.
Quote:
Which direction to extend in?
Push straight down on the foot,,, extend straight up in relation to the angle the leg is inclined at the moment. There is no left or right component to the extension. The extension is not intended to move the body laterally on its own. It just disrupts the state of balance so that the forces of the prior turn are allowed to move the body in the manner we desire. This is how we harness and manage the forces acting on us to do our bidding, so our muscles don't have to do so much of the work.
Quote:
Also, maximum extension at what point of the turn?
No stead fast rule on this, but ideally no later than maximum edge angle, where the forces you'll encounter will be at their highest. This is for an arc to arc turn. Fully extended earlier is fine, but it does limit the man made supplemental pressure that can be applied if needed. Requires more refine balance and angulation skills. In a pivoted entry turn you'll generally want to be more fully extended at the time of post pivot touch down, because you will be experiencing a sudden blast of turn forces that must be resisted.
Finally, understand that fully extended does not mean leg locked absolutely straight. There needs to be a degree of flex in the knee in a fully extended leg. Allows for adjustment to and absorption of sudden changes is terrain, forces and snow.
Quote:
When to start to angulate?
Generally, the higher the edge angle, the more you'll need to angulate. As such, you start immediately upon tipping and just kind of fold into the tipping,,, adding more angulation as you add edge angle.
Remember too; angulation is about maintaining lateral balance in the manner you desire. Each turn will require a different amount of angulation, depending on speed, side cut of skis, shape of turn, etc. Learning to use just what is needed in every turn, and at every moment, is the art component of the science. Learning to perform skillfully in any state of balance allows you the luxury of being able to produce a masterpiece even when you accidently smear the paint.
Quote:
I know I have a tendency not to extend enough and also not progressively enough, together with a tendency to angulate too early (all a legacy of old style skiing I think). On GS skis I had to be very patient, try to feel a platform with ankles and knees but with weight forwards, then extend but kept on feeling like I was going to fall over into the turn and really had to fight my instinct to then rotate. So many questions, so little time!
It's common for the body to require a bit of an adjustment period when a person goes from a slalom type sidecut ski, to a GS sidecut ski. Typically, it's just as you describe; the body moves into the new turn as it had on the slalom skis, but the GS skis don't seem to want to come along as they should. We end up falling inside and wondering, "what the heck?". This is what I was talking about early when I said every sidecut requires a different amount of angulation. GS skis require more because the same edge angle produces a bigger radius turn, thus less centrifugal forces to balance more inclinated postions.
When turning on GS skis, include a bit more angulation early in the turn, and be more patient with how quickly you move the upperbody in the direction of the turn. The skis will arc in the manner consistent with their sidecut, and it will be more gradual than your slalom skis. Gotta wait for them. After a few runs the body will get the feel of the different turn shape, and will adjust to a more appropriate lateral movement pattern.
Also understand that the speed you're traveling will also play a role in how aggressively you can dive into a turn. The faster you're traveling, the greater the forces available to provide lateral balance during an aggressive dive into a new turn. The first couple turns, until speed is attained, may even require a bit of knee angluation.
Here's a helpful hint you may already know; when starting from a standstill, start off going straight down the falline, getting a bit of speed, then starting your first turn. Makes the first turn, and getting into a good rhythm, much easier.
Hey guys/gals, I have a request. Could anyone provide me a link to some dryslope racing video? I'd like to have a look-see for myself how people ski on plastic,,,, how tactics/technique differs. Right now all I have to go on are my suppositions, having never seen it, much less personally experienced it.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
FastMan wrote:
Hey guys/gals, I have a request. Could anyone provide me a link to some dryslope racing video? I'd like to have a look-see for myself how people ski on plastic,,,, how tactics/technique differs. Right now all I have to go on are my suppositions, having never seen it, much less personally experienced it.
Search for "happycoach" on YouTube. I think this should link you there. This video probably gives you the best views of slalom on plastic.
FastMan, If you've now seen the video you'll see that there's a fair bit of difference in the way the courses are set compared with snow. When you only have 150m or less to play with it's a little difference. The misting system was well in evidence on the second video, which will have helped keep the speeds up, but basically dendix is a slow surface so the courses do tend to be very straight and with no space in between gates! The only slope I know in the UK that can (and has) run a sort of GS is Hillend in Edinburgh. Even that would be very 'small'. Basically knee angulation works well on plastic, but you'll have noted one of the skiers overdoing it and coming out of the course. In the bad old days of straight skis there used to be a lot of 'stamping' on the poles to get an even straighter line - the judges didn't always spot it either.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
easiski wrote:
The only slope I know in the UK that can (and has) run a sort of GS is Hillend in Edinburgh. Even that would be very 'small'.
Videos of GS-type racing on plastic can be seen here.
After all it is free
After all it is free
easiski wrote:
there used to be a lot of 'stamping' on the poles to get an even straighter line - the judges didn't always spot it either.
...and is still alive and well, and frequently demonstrated (i.e. in nearly every race) by one of my regular rivals!!!!
I actually found the 2006 Irish Champs vid, also on that page, a bit easier to watch - less trendy cutting about and less irritating music!! That also showed some of the less hot, and much younger, skiers too. Plastic racing is primarily for the kids - the majority being I would say aged 11-16 - but there seems to be an increasing number of us old gits getting captivated by it too (the 40+ agegroups may not be as fast but we're just as competitive as the young bucks). We can probably find out a bit more about the skiers in shot if you like.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
rob@rar, Couldn't watch that - trying too hard to be 'artistic'.
GrahamN, some things never change
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ask and ye shall receive. Thanks, rob@rar. The skiing on plastic actually looked more similar to snow than I thought it would. I really didn't think they'd be able to carve as cleanly as they do on that stuff. As easiski says, the setting is very down the falline, but on snow courses sections that flat would be set with less offset too, so slope pitch does have something to do with it. I thought for the flatness of the hill, the speeds were reasonable. Misting must really help.
I did see a bunch of end of turn diverging (skate) stepping happening, especially in the Irish 2006 vid. But there were also a good number of fast skiers who were carrying speed while skiing more arc to arc too. The Dublin 05 vid seemed to display less stepping,,, more arc to arc. Some of the stepping I saw was functional,,, well timed and utilized reverse camber release energy to take speed into the new turn. But much of it was ugly. Just a fall onto a diverging inside ski that allowed all the potential energy stored in the reverse cambered outside ski to just dissipate (translation; be pissed away). Much of the speed there to be had is wasted when that happens. The skier leans in too soon,,, falls onto the inside ski,,, and just kind of stalls. The guys who ride a clean arc all the way through, don't step, but release in the right manner and at the right moment, use the energy stored in their skis to propel themselves forward with each turn completion, and ski faster than the "fall to the inside" steppers.
I do see a lot of tail riding too. I attribute that, again, to the flatness of the hill, and making an effort to stay off the tips, which if pressured too strongly can be a drag on speed. Not a bad tactic, but some stay back constantly,,, never making a transitional move back to center/forward for the engagement of the new turn, and thus get themselves in trouble; off line, harsh initiations, sloppy carves, blowing out, etc. Even if they work the tail at the middle and end of the turn, there needs to be a re-centering at the transition to produce a quality entry into the new turn.
One thing really nice is that there's less course deterioration on plastic than on snow. Plastic is much more fair/kind to the last guy to run than snow is. And wow, what a full out sprint those courses are,,, so short and flat. The times must be pretty close. All in all, looks like good fun. A few of those youngsters were ripping it up pretty nicely too.
Oh,,, and easiski, that stomping on the gates thing,,, brings back memories.
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
, and preventing me being at training with 
? If the projection of the fall line above the gate you're about to turn around, 
.
Let's try it like this.
s. Lucky you, to have been taught by 
does it not? Spend a season skiing with 
