 Poster: A snowHead
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IncogSkiSno, 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Jonny Jones wrote: |
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Where does all of them?
(I'd be interested to ski there)
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Panorama. If you haven't been there, it's well worth a trip. |
Sorry, I meant "where in Europe?", since this is ise's claim
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Wear The Fox Hat wrote: |
| Jonny Jones wrote: |
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Where does all of them?
(I'd be interested to ski there)
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Panorama. If you haven't been there, it's well worth a trip. |
Sorry, I meant "where in Europe?", since this is ise's claim |
I was surprised you asked, as many Nor Am resorts could probably claim to do all those things. It'll be interesting to see if anyone can find a European resorts that hits the same standard.
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Jonny Jones, yes, I was interested to see if anyone can find a Euro resort that hits that standard, which was why I asked ise to tell us where. Hopefully we'll get a response!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Is there anywhere in Europe which has the 'in bounds' concept; you can 'safely' ski anywhere in the ski area, marked or not, other than roped off areas (a sort of British 'if it's not specifically forbidden, its allowed' approach as opposed to a European 'if it's not specifically allowed, it's forbidden' approach)? It makes for very enjoyable skiing (for me, at any rate). It would be difficult or impossible in larger resorts, I imagine, but I don't see why the small or medium sized resorts couldn't do it.
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richmond, I'm off to Val d'Isere tommorrow  and noticed in the blurb that Tignes has an area that is marked as controlled off-piste or something similar. Does anyone know what that's all about?
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richmond, I don't think there is anywhere like that in theory, but in practice the off-piste slopes which woulld threaten a piste if they avalanched are all like that.
However European off-piste slopes are all allowed, none is forbidden - It is just at your own risk.
Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Fri 31-03-06 9:38; edited 1 time in total
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What does it matter? Both the US and European system are mere indicators of potential difficulty or not as the case may be.
Any additional info is ok but not a requsite. People really ought to know that blues have such and such a gradient scope, reds are more and blacks even more etc etc. If people don't know that conditions can change in the mountains on a hourly basis then they must be pretty oblivious and they probably aren't the sort of people who will go out and get, or take notice of any additional info there may be.
And we ceratinly don't want to get to situation where we see people complaining about this tree or that bit of ice that wasn't marked, IMV. Next you will be roping off whole sections of the mountains
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| richmond wrote: |
| Is there anywhere in Europe which has the 'in bounds' concept; you can 'safely' ski anywhere in the ski area, marked or not, other than roped off areas |
safely is hard thing to define. Look around any ski stations and information is provided about hazards at acces points to popular off-piste areas. Gated freeride areas are appearing in places but it's my impression that they're not really catching on too much.
| richmond wrote: |
| (a sort of British 'if it's not specifically forbidden, its allowed' approach as opposed to a European 'if it's not specifically allowed, it's forbidden' approach)? It makes for very enjoyable skiing (for me, at any rate). It would be difficult or impossible in larger resorts, I imagine, but I don't see why the small or medium sized resorts couldn't do it. |
I think you misunderstand how European skiing operates, it is the case that since something's not forbidden it's allowed although I think the situations is slightly different in Italy.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| snowball wrote: |
However European off-piste slopes are all allowed, none is forbidden - It is just at your own risk. |
Actually, on the Sella Ronda last week there were lots of signs saying no off-piste skiing (avalanche danger level 2. I think these signs were there all the time.). I asked a few people, however, and discoverewd it meant, really, "at your own risk". It was just a way of absolving the resorts of responsibility. A bit sneaky, it seems to me.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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snowball,
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However European off-piste slopes are all allowed, none is forbidden - It is just at your own risk
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I think the situation can vary a little. Some wooded areas are out of bounds for the sake of new tree growth. I have also read and I don't know if it is myth or not that the local Mayor may ban it in some communes in certain circumstances. I have seen signs up in Montgenevre saying it is banned at a time of relativly low avalanche risk.
Edit: It is also banned in Scotland if you take up the Cairngorm funicular as is walking 
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| richmond wrote: |
| Is there anywhere in Europe which has the 'in bounds' concept; you can 'safely' ski anywhere in the ski area, marked or not, other than roped off areas (a sort of British 'if it's not specifically forbidden, its allowed' approach as opposed to a European 'if it's not specifically allowed, it's forbidden' approach)? It makes for very enjoyable skiing (for me, at any rate). It would be difficult or impossible in larger resorts, I imagine, but I don't see why the small or medium sized resorts couldn't do it. |
La Rosiere has developed one this season called "snowcross des Zittieux", didn't go in it so cant report what its like.
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You know it makes sense.
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JT, actually in Utah (have little experience elsewhere) the roped off, off piste areas are "controlled" so even though you can find some pretty challenging terrain, if you have a problem (and can contact them) they'll come and rescue you - as if you were on piste.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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We skied a run in Zell am See, which was marked as a dotted red line with a red diamond and was called " the off-piste adventure", it had piste markers, though not many, but wasn't groomed. It was great fun but we ended up on it by accident 
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Poster: A snowHead
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| richmond wrote: |
| Is there anywhere in Europe which has the 'in bounds' concept; you can 'safely' ski anywhere in the ski area, marked or not, other than roped off areas (a sort of British 'if it's not specifically forbidden, its allowed' approach as opposed to a European 'if it's not specifically allowed, it's forbidden' approach)?. |
Two come to mind immediately, from the limited areas I've been, other than Tigne's SPOT. There's a large off-piste area with an entry gate at Zinal (ise's and snowbunny's future stamping ground), although I've not actually skied it myself as the avalanche risk was too high at the time. The front side of Argentiere is effectively also what you describe.
Actually the only area I've seen the 'if it's not specifically allowed, it's forbidden' concept is in America, where you are effectively forbidden from going outside the ski area. In Europe it's always been the case that there's just a warning that past this sign it's not patrolled. I also find it interesting that I've met two guides this year who much prefer working in the Alps to in the USA, because of over-regulation in the USA. One of those explicitly refuses to work in the US, and the other actually lives in Summit County Colorado, but comes to the Alps to ski!
| David Murdoch wrote: |
| if you have a problem (and can contact them) they'll come and rescue you - as if you were on piste. |
but doesn't that apply everywhere anyway? The guide we had in La Grave was telling us about the Heli rescue there, which is a free service BTW. They frequently get called out by people who've followed tracks that end up leading to the top of a cliff and a long walk back. They are obliged to respond to the call, but funnily enough the heli is nearly always big enough to pick up the stranded skier(s), but just too small to take their skis/boards as well .
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| GrahamN wrote: |
| richmond wrote: |
| Is there anywhere in Europe which has the 'in bounds' concept; you can 'safely' ski anywhere in the ski area, marked or not, other than roped off areas (a sort of British 'if it's not specifically forbidden, its allowed' approach as opposed to a European 'if it's not specifically allowed, it's forbidden' approach)?. |
Two come to mind immediately, from the limited areas I've been, other than Tigne's SPOT. There's a large off-piste area with an entry gate at Zinal (ise's and snowbunny's future stamping ground), although I've not actually skied it myself as the avalanche risk was too high at the time. |
I'm not sure how popular it is though, I think it's a marketing tool really. The avalanche transceiver training area is a far more valuable thing IMO.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| ise wrote: |
| I'm not sure how popular it is though, I think it's a marketing tool really. |
You mean, designed to attract those Yanks that come to Europe to discover real mountains?
We certainly seemed to find enough off-piste without going anywhere near that gate.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| GrahamN wrote: |
Two come to mind immediately, from the limited areas I've been, other than Tigne's SPOT. There's a large off-piste area with an entry gate at Zinal (ise's and snowbunny's future stamping ground), although I've not actually skied it myself as the avalanche risk was too high at the time.
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But if it was genuinely an area secured against avalanche, and was open, you should have had a virtual guarantee that it was safe!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| richmond wrote: |
| Is there anywhere in Europe which has the 'in bounds' concept; you can 'safely' ski anywhere in the ski area, marked or not, other than roped off areas (a sort of British 'if it's not specifically forbidden, its allowed' approach as opposed to a European 'if it's not specifically allowed, it's forbidden' approach)? It makes for very enjoyable skiing (for me, at any rate). It would be difficult or impossible in larger resorts, I imagine, but I don't see why the small or medium sized resorts couldn't do it. |
I think Flims has marked off piste areas that are controlled, patrolled and on the piste map.
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I think ski itineraries (at St Anton, Zermatt etc) are a special case of semi-piste, not really an off piste AREA. Most were originally pistes but were regraded to protect the resort against being sued so easily if, for example, you fall on ice or a rock. That way they can also keep it open for good skiers when otherwise it would be closed.
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Fri 31-03-06 11:03; edited 1 time in total
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Les Arcs has plans for a controlled off piste area too. It also has detailed whiteboard messages with respect to piste conditions at the top of runs, and roped off runs that can occasionally be taken after a word with the pisteurs to verify. However once roped off, any descent is at your own risk.
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| JT wrote: |
| What does it matter? Both the US and European system are mere indicators of potential difficulty or not as the case may be. |
It matters to me because I don't have, and probably never will have, the ability to judge if an unpisted slope is safe. In N.America, I can reasonably assume that anything inbounds not roped off is safe (the resort may have got that wrong, but I'm prepared to take that risk), so I can potter about off piste reasonably happily; all I need to worry about is 'Can I get down there in one piece?' rather than 'Am I going to cause or be caught in an avalanche, and where the hell will I end up at the bottom?'. I can't do that in Europe, in general.
N.American resorts threaten dire consequences to anyone going out of bounds, which isn't the case in Europe. This is obviously because of liability issues and the different nature of land ownership and access rights between Europe and N.America. This may make N.America less attractive than Europe for accomplished off piste skiers who want to go off into the wild white yonder, but for the likes of me, the N.American set up works well. I believe that 'backwoods' skiing is popular in N.America, 'though, so presumably there are spots where you can just head off into the snow.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Okay, I'll rephrase my question: has anyone skiied the Tignes controlled off piste area, if so what is it like??
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| T Bar wrote: |
snowball,
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However European off-piste slopes are all allowed, none is forbidden - It is just at your own risk
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I think the situation can vary a little. Some wooded areas are out of bounds for the sake of new tree growth.
Edit: It is also banned in Scotland if you take up the Cairngorm funicular as is walking |
Yes, that's true, but these tree areas are usually very small and specific.
As for the Cairngorms - do you really mean that you can't ski off piste from the funicular? That sounds bizzarre! How could they police it? (I know they ban walkers from the lift in summer - I had to walk up to continue the walk beyond the lift top. Really frustrating and stupid cooping people up at the top, in the lift station, so they see hardly anything. Not worth the cost of the journey IMHO.)
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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snowball,
To be honest I have no idea how they patrol it as I haven't been up in winter. I believe it was written in to the planning permission to stop damage to the plateau. I suspect off piste within the actual area is allowed but venturing further afield is banned but am not certain.
My impression is that the ban on skiing within trees is increasing. I was in Austira recantly and there were quite a few signs without really designating which areas they were referring to. Judging by the amount of tracks the ban was frequently ignored. When permission was given for the Briancon lift system to be built in Serre Che the payback was that a large section of well sheltered larch forest that you previously had to climb a little to access was put out of bounds.
I don't really object to these measures but todo wish they could be a little more precise sometimes.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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St Anton has woodland all over the place and according to signs and the piste map you are NOT allowed in it. Apparently there is fox living there and to protect it, people found skiing in the woods will be SHOT and then FINED 5000 euros.
This seems to encourage the risk takers, because I saw ski tracks (lots of them) in all the wooded areas, when I was there in Feb.
I'd rather take my chances in an Avalanche than mix with Klaus and his big gun
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Methinks it would be more productive for the local budget to fine them 5000 Euros and THEN shoot them.
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I think they shoot first, so it's easier to catch the blighters. Thinking about it don't the yanks like to shoot first too?
Last edited by Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name: on Fri 31-03-06 13:22; edited 1 time in total
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Poster: A snowHead
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Sounds like the best plan, but I wonder what counts as a LARGE backpack. I don't consider my usual day-pack large, but it does (always) contain a shovel and probe, as well as some spare clothing. Id feel naked without it.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Quote: |
I don't consider my usual day-pack large, but it does (always) contain a shovel and probe, as well as some spare clothing. Id feel naked without it.
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I don't think they'd worry about that - I've seen boarders with shovels for making jumps and I have skied with a full day sac. Read the winterhighland thread it amost went as far off topic as this one.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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richmond,
My comment related to marked runs so you paraphrased the comment out of context or misunderstood
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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beeryletcher, why are they so worried about a bl**dy fox? What the fox is that about? We hunt them with dogs round here. Oh, is that illegal too??
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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David Murdoch, when's the Kings Road Hunt out next then?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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JT, richmond had introduced the subject of the "In Bounds" concept of off-piste, so he read your comment in the context of the current discussion.
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| JT wrote: |
richmond,
My comment related to marked runs so you paraphrased the comment out of context or misunderstood |
Yes, I see that now, sorry. Still, it gave me a chance to say why I like 'ski what you see' resorts, as if anybody cares.
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| richmond wrote: |
| as if anybody cares. |
We do care!
Someone go give richmond a hug.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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richmond,
No problem. My stance on all this is individual repsonsibilty in the mountains but I generally think that should also apply in whatever we may do.... but thats a whole new bag of worms...
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snowball,
I could have 'quoted' the post I was specifically answering to, but the thread moved so quick ... I'll be more conciensous next time.
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