 Poster: A snowHead
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@a.j.
According to my car thermometer central London is 3-5C warmer than outer M25. Especially on sunny days. A proper urban heat island.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Sheffield and Paris - two coldest places in the world
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@foxtrotzulu, I've always kept a spade like that in the car as well, they are tougher than most things and don't bend at the slightest use. Mine is from an army surplus store and last in used for sand-castles on wittering beach so an "all season" spade 
A point made by others on that linked post about usefulness of winter tyres all year round, I've been a passenger in a car on Pirelli winter tyres that was being driven on dry tarmac at speeds and lateral loads that were so far above anything people would ever use and it was to all practical purposes absolutely faultless with astonishing levels of grip and composure. I'm not posting that to draw comments about behaviour but to illustrate that if you look at the whole thing from the opposite direction then it's clear that the winter tyre delivered very little compromise used outside it's supposed design parametrs when compared to a pure summer tyre confronted with snow at which point it can become all but useless.
Used within normal driving conditions and speed limits, a winter tyre should give no problems all year round.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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I'll stick my neck out and say that no-one who has tried winter tyres on Alpine (or Scottish!) snow covered roads has ever gone back to arriving on summer tyres. The arguments can only come from those who haven't experienced the difference. They also work very well as mentioned on cold wet UK roads for most of late Oct - March.
Having said that, I have also experienced booking a hire car with winter tyres (Milan - Sestriere), only to arrive at airport and be told the car was on summer tyres and that was all they had.
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Our winter tyres were very useful for a trip back from Kent to Surrey on Boxing day. Absolutely pouring with rain, about 5 degrees and masses of surface water on the A20/M25.
Sev112 - "Sheffield and Paris - two coldest places in the world"
I think the coldest I've ever been was in Montreal in Feb some years ago. About -20 and my face was hurting it was so cold.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@footsoldier,
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I'll stick my neck out and say that no-one who has tried winter tyres on Alpine (or Scottish!) snow covered roads has ever gone back to arriving on summer tyres. The arguments can only come from those who haven't experienced the difference. They also work very well as mentioned on cold wet UK roads for most of late Oct - March.
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I have and probably will continue to arrive at times in the alps and Scotland on summer tyres.
In fact I may well do so tomorrow.
In the alps I usually fly and rent a car and quite simply there are times when I have been unable to rent with winter tyres.
I live in Scotland and usually change to winter tyres for winter, however having just swapped cars I do not have them for my new car so will be heading up for my New Year sojourn after work tomorrow on summer tyres. If there is snow on Rannoch Moor I will obviously have to be a bit more careful but I have done it before.
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Fair enough - but having tried both, do you not think there's a huge difference?
By luck I started using winter tyres 4 years ago, just before we had the massive snowfalls all over Scotland, and haven't looked back. A Subaru Impreza on Nokians is pretty much invincible!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@footsoldier,
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but having tried both, do you not think there's a huge difference?
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Absolutely, I am in no way knocking winter tyres and agree completely that they are the best equipment for driving in snow and sensible cold weather equipment in general. As I say I usually use them myself.
I just get slightly irritated by the slightly smug absolutist attitude that has no sympathy for people who may not be using them.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Apparently 800 people in Albertville offered rooms for the night.
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@davidof, when I took my OH to a random doctor in albertville with an eye infection he refused to take any payment on the grounds that if he was ill in England he hoped he'd be looked after.
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You know it makes sense.
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| T Bar wrote: |
@footsoldier,
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but having tried both, do you not think there's a huge difference?
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Absolutely, I am in no way knocking winter tyres and agree completely that they are the best equipment for driving in snow and sensible cold weather equipment in general. As I say I usually use them myself.
I just get slightly irritated by the slightly smug absolutist attitude that has no sympathy for people who may not be using them. |
Having sympathy to someone who either do not know or do not care about their own and other's safety? Its the other way arround - try driving in Finland, Norway and Sweden and look for sympathy ... It is a common sense but for some saving several hundreds is more important than safety ... It is arrogant and iiresponsable, so what do you expect? No winter tyres, take train or fly in and take a bus
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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France should just do the same as Germany/Austria/Scandinavia and make winter tyres mandatory in certain locations during winter months. That might stop people thinking they can wing it and drive a snowy mountain road on inappropriate tyres, causing chaos and obstruction to hundreds of other road users who have taken adequate precautions.
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Poster: A snowHead
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The people who boast about doing Calais to the alps in 6 hours worry me a lot more than somebody who clutters up the road putting on their chains.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| pam w wrote: |
| The people who boast about doing Calais to the alps in 6 hours worry me a lot more than somebody who clutters up the road putting on their chains. |
That kind of distance in 6 hours, average and top spead would be on the edge for most winter tyres' spead index ... So I would assume those would be doing it in summer tyres anyway 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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No problem getting winters with higher speed ratings. Mine are V (up to 240kph) and I regularly do 180-200kph on autobahns when conditions are good. Although even then the average (in Germany only) is way below 200kph. I find it hard to believe Calais to, say, Albertville is possible in 6 hours. 6:59 to the nearest Alpine resort with some speed limit breaking and a lot of luck (good weather, light traffic, no speed cams and police), maybe.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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My winter tyres are rated to 130 mph IIRC. To suggest that anyone driving to the alps on summer tyres is showing a wanton disregard for the safety of their family and others is absurd. The arrogance of those who think speed limits are for others is much more culpable.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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mrs sunnbuels yaris has Vector 4 seasons on and it danced around stranded and spinning summer shod quattros and similar in snowy sheffield last weekend, really wish i had filmed some of them, twas very funny.
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| pam w wrote: |
| My winter tyres are rated to 130 mph IIRC. To suggest that anyone driving to the alps on summer tyres is showing a wanton disregard for the safety of their family and others is absurd. The arrogance of those who think speed limits are for others is much more culpable. |
Oh really? So why is it illegal in some countries to use summer tyres in winter? An argument that one or two weeks in a year does not make it worthwhile is absurd. Its danferious and irresponsible to drive with summer tyres in the Alps! You may advice your clients that it is OK to drive in summer tyres and take chains as a precaution, but you would be putting your interest first against those of a general public.
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| footsoldier wrote: |
| A Subaru Impreza on Nokians is pretty much invincible! |
For absolute invincibility may I recommend a battered Ligier microcar with a 74 plate. Driver must be hunched over the wheel, cigarette glued to bottom lip and for true snow god status, must reek of Marc de Savoie regardless of the time of day. Owning such a vehicle, no matter what tyres are fitted, ensures you will be waved through by every Gendarme on the mountain. 
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So why is it illegal in some countries to use summer tyres in winter?
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Tyre manufacturer lobby?
Let's face it, you all live in a temperate country and drive in the Alps for about five minutes once a year. You're hardly qualified to rant about it.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Surely, using summer tyres in extreme conditions is much the same as driving a car with bald tyres. You aren't just a hazard to yourself (and your family) but a hazard to others too. Personally, I wouldn't suggest that driving on summer tyres to the Alps is inherently "a wanton disregard for the safety of their family and others" but I would argue that driving on snow, slush etc. certainly is. From what we know a fair amount of the carnage last weekend was caused by motorists who were not properly equipped for the journey.
By all means drive to the Alps on summer tyres but if you find when you get near that the conditions are too poor then you get no sympathy from me and you should just find some chains or alternative transport. Worse still is those who make it into the resort but then think they can wing it on the way down despite fresh snow.
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| Flaine skier wrote: |
Chains should be left for situations like getting up steep driveways to chalets, not for driving on the roads with a bit of snow on. They are not a substitute for winter tyres. |
I put winter tyres on my RWD Jaguar as a matter of course each winter, and they have made a huge difference - in my summer tyres I couldn't even reverse up the small drop kerb into my driveway once. However, they still lose traction very easily given the nature of the car and the size of the tyres, and so I've needed chains at times at lot sooner than you suggest, although thankfully rarely. I agree though that for many FWD cars with narrow tyres, chains aren't generally needed nearly as soon.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Winter tyres being fitted tomorrow. Some pretty compelling views on here. Managed to get a set for £360 so not quite as bad I was expecting.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@Whitters,
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I put winter tyres on my RWD Jaguar as a matter of course each winter, and they have made a huge difference - in my summer tyres I couldn't even reverse up the small drop kerb into my driveway once. However, they still lose traction very easily given the nature of the car and the size of the tyres, and so I've needed chains at times at lot sooner than you suggest, although thankfully rarely. I agree though that for many FWD cars with narrow tyres, chains aren't generally needed nearly as soon.
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I picked up a v good value set of wheels and winter tyres that I now have on my BMW 6-series. It's still rubbish in the snow, but far better than before. Not completely sure I agree with your last sentence .......
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I agree though that for many FWD cars with narrow tyres, chains aren't generally needed nearly as soon.
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You may be right about the narrow tyres bit, but the FWD vs RWD debate is only relevant when trying to GO. No difference when trying to STOP.
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@mooney058, whatever are you talking about? Who, in your fevered mind, are the "clients " who I am selfishly advising to drive to the alps on summer tyres?
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You know it makes sense.
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| foxtrotzulu wrote: |
You may be right about the narrow tyres bit, but the FWD vs RWD debate is only relevant when trying to GO. No difference when trying to STOP. |
Fair enough....although I suppose if my RWD refuses to GO in the first place then stopping is never an issue!
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Lizzard wrote: |
| Quote: |
So why is it illegal in some countries to use summer tyres in winter?
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Tyre manufacturer lobby?
Let's face it, you all live in a temperate country and drive in the Alps for about five minutes once a year. You're hardly qualified to rant about it. |
you are joking right? I own two sets of tyres (winter and summer) - they both last a certain milage (25-30K) so what is the gain for the manufacturers in the short term? mechanical things have properties - summer tyres do not behave optimaly when the average temperature is bellow 7 celcius - many test done and is obvious from millions of km of drivers' experience. as for the safety - you only need one slip which is quite likely to happen if you only used to drive in summer conditions and you happen to be driving during these '5 minutes' - no experience, no skils and innapropriate equipment.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@pam w, appologies - you can replace 'clients' with 'friends' and 'snowheads'. Having lived in 'the North' and been driving for many years, after having taken winter extreme driving courses and seen many irresponsible drivers on Alpine roads I find it strange to suggest that you are ok to use summer tyres in winter conditiions. even when car is properly equiped, winter driving differ from summer driving - this alone can put inexperienced drivers and those arround at risk 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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After 2009/10 and 2010/11 the UK was one more bad winter away from a winter tyre law. Yes that was probably helped by lobbying by the tyre companies but it was seriously on the agenda. However, because the great British press would have labelled it as the tyre tax or some such phrase the government were delighted that 2011/12 and pretty much ever since have been relatively snowless and thus the decision was at worst postponed. It won't have gone away though?
I also agree re costs. If you buy and run a new car on a three year cycle most people would have to replace the original set once. If they buy winters right away and run on them 5 months of each year they probably wouldn't? So no real additional cost?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@Philip1972, And it went down - down -down.
But it is god with god tires! 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Lizzard wrote: |
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So why is it illegal in some countries to use summer tyres in winter?
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Tyre manufacturer lobby?
Let's face it, you all live in a temperate country and drive in the Alps for about five minutes once a year. You're hardly qualified to rant about it. |
I understand that France does not have any rules wrt mandating winter tyres, but what is the situation if you do end up in a crash? I imagine that any insurance company would be rubbing it's hands in glee at the prospect of not paying up because you caused the accident due to gross negligence, which imo you probably did. I also imagine ( but don't know ) that the as far as the law is concerned the major part of the blame would be attributed to the guy with the summer tyres.
For those reasons alone I wouldn't contemplate going near the Alps with summer tyres. Really!
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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@mooney058, you are not paying attention to what I am saying. I said that most of the time summer tyres are OK. A simple statement of fact. Roads are clear and dry most of the time. It often doesn't snow for weeks and when it does it is not often on a big transfer day. When a competent driver on summer tyres gets her decent snowchains on promptly she will still generally be fine.
Of course winter tyres are safer and will reduce the chances of having to use chains. Wearing a crash helmet reduces the chances of head injury. Rally drivers wear them but that doesn't mean the rest of us are stupid. Nothing is risk free. This morning I went for a walk through snowy woods on snowshoes on my own. That was a risk too.
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| Steilhang wrote: |
| I understand that France does not have any rules wrt mandating winter tyres |
Some roads, well practically all out of the valley floor, are signposted in winter as winter tires/chains only. Pam reports the signs are up all year round in the Savoie. They are not in the Isere. So the Savoyards have some issues with signposting.
The initial problem came the week before when cars went up to resort with summer tires only and no chains. That sowed the seeds for the carnage.
The police should have been checking people leaving resort on Saturday morning. However the prefect had 220 police for the whole of the Savoie, not really a huge force for the situation.
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The signs mean that you should have chains available. I have never been sure whether the signs mean that you don't need chains if you have winter tyres. Dunno what my gendarme would have done if I had had no chains. Sent me back down to albertville I imagine.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| pam w wrote: |
@mooney058, you are not paying attention to what I am saying. I said that most of the time summer tyres are OK. A simple statement of fact. Roads are clear and dry most of the time. It often doesn't snow for weeks and when it does it is not often on a big transfer day. When a competent driver on summer tyres gets her decent snowchains on promptly she will still generally be fine.
Of course winter tyres are safer and will reduce the chances of having to use chains. Wearing a crash helmet reduces the chances of head injury. Rally drivers wear them but that doesn't mean the rest of us are stupid. Nothing is risk free. This morning I went for a walk through snowy woods on snowshoes on my own. That was a risk too. |
Most of the time summer tyres are ok - sorry, this I can not agree with, because it is not in winter. It is not only snow, its the low temperatures. Your simple statement of fact is subject to many 'if' and 'but'.
Snow chains are not the replacement for winter tyres - if inexperienced person put thme on he has a chance of damaging the car. As to rally drivers wearing helmets,c'mon its not the argument, they also use rollcages ....  you put yourself at risk - your reponsability, even if your take a pint  but why would I have sympathy to those who endanger me and my family just because they hope 'it'll be ok, just 5 min/km'. So whem i drive and choose stoping distance from cars/obstacles infront of me, why would i have to worry if the car behind me will be able to stop in time - in no snow conditions, many drivers with summer tyres most probably have a false sense of control. Do you think it snows in finland and sweden all the time and people are stupid of driving on winter tyres? I'm paying attention to what you are saying, but it is the things you are saying are worrying me...
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@davidof, understood. So what is the situation wrt liability if you are involved in an accident with summer tyres on snow?
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FAQ
