 Poster: A snowHead
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OP skiing is like sex, all down to experience, do more of it and experiment and steep off piste becomes the norm just as previous thought depravity has one gnawing the bedside table for more.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Cynic wrote: |
| OP skiing is like sex, all down to experience, do more of it and experiment and steep off piste becomes the norm just as previous thought depravity has one gnawing the bedside table for more. |
This. 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I would be happy having sex as often as I ski!
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Frosty the Snowman,
But I didn't think you were skiing this year 
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Claude B, I'm not 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Quote: |
- later broke her back on a very icy and busy piste in St Anton and was helicoptered off the slope and in a full body plaster for months. She's a good boarder now, but had to learn her way, which meant 100% control.
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am I the only one to see the inherent conflict in those sentences?
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How did this turn into a discussion about sex?
I've had my fair share of fear, and I'd say if black runs scare you, don't do them! Enjoy feeling confident on blues and reds, and get some lessons to help build your confidence on the easier blacks.
I think sometimes it's down to a psychological fear about the colour of the piste markers. I've skied blacks which were more like easy reds, and reds which were tougher than many blacks (obviously that is often down to the conditions.) Certainly the run gradings in somewhere like Val d'Isere are pretty questionable at times.
Oddly enough I've conquered my fear of steeps, simply by buying skis that gave me the confidence to do them.
Good luck and enjoy your holiday!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Piccadilly, I must admit that if I am faced with an icy steep pitch on those I do, I also think about the good skis that I am using and these give me a feeling of confidence that at least my gear should support what I try to do.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I struggle with this every so often...less and less as time goes on as slowly narrowing down situations that make my subconscious take hold of my legs!! I know the easy thing would be to accept I don't like skiing steeper stuff but where is the fun in that? I want to improve! (And hate being beaten.... When I know that my instructor thinks I am well equipped skill wise to ski something I want to get to the point I too believe this!)
I have tackled this with targeted lessons (just couple of hours at a go but spread out), getting instructor to tell me where they think I should capable of skiing and then pushing myself every now and then to confront my fears and cement the confidence I have built up in the lessons.
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| quirkybird wrote: |
| I have been going every year since I was 11 for a week. However, it seems like every holiday since I was 13- I've been scared for the first 5 days of the trip, and unwilling to throw myself down anything, always the last one to the bottom- ect. However, once I get into it- the trip is nearly up and I'm gutted that I didn't make the most of my time! |
One obvious solution is to do a 2 week holiday!
But that's not going to help you for your upcoming trip.
I'd venture a guess (but only a guess): There's some serious flaws in your skiing. At least the first 5 days of your holidays. Maybe you're turning with your shoulder rather than your legs, maybe you're leaning into the hills, maybe something else.
If you only ski one week a year, the beginning of your week would usually be a year from the last time you skied. You might have forgotten how to ski properly, or at least some aspect of it. So it's possible you repeat the same mistake every year during the first 5 days of your holiday! And by the time you finally corrected it, it's time to go home and you never got the chance to really "muscle memorize" it for next year!
The solution for that could be a private on day 2 of your holiday, as Pam suggested. Or even day 1 so you don't give yourself the chance to ingrain the wrong habit again! Tell your instructor you need a full refresher so you can enjoy your week. If the instructor can help with the fear issue, great. But at least you'll get a faster path to regain your best technique so you'll be tackling blacks comfortably on day 3 instead of day 5!
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You know it makes sense.
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Hi quirkybird
Lots of good advice above - except, I'd contend, about going for black runs on day 1 (noooo...). I have a brilliant hippy ski-instructor friend whose sayings have engrained themselves in my family's skiing, the best of which is:
"Embrace ze down-'ill"
Where are you going? Downhill. Go downhill. Love the mountain! Love the travel on the mountain. I know I sound really tree-huggy here but after several years of late-starter skiing, during which I have taken it fairly steadily and slowly but always been gently challenged and moved on, I had a huge revelation about how it's not about black runs or being gung-ho or being pressured to be faster, but loving being in the mountains. I can now ski black runs (carefully!) and am very happy (and fast) on reds, love a nice curvy blue run or a wide, smooth green. I've started to go off-piste and learned that moguls are nothing to be afraid of if you've been shown how to ski them properly. It was about a slow build-up of good technique and surrender to the whole weirdness of sliding on two planks in one of the most astonishing and beautiful places in the world.
My instructor (Herve Klein) is based in Ste Foy/Val d'Isere/La Rosiere so alas you can't book him, but if you can add "Embrace ze down-'ill" to your inner monologue, it will definitely help!
Have fun and tell us what happened!
Violette
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Do you live close to a snowdome? I find that getting in a few sessions before a holiday helps me to get my ski legs back, and avoids so much shaking on greens/blues in the first day.
Private lessons have also been really useful. I've been emailing Charlotte mentioned above, and plan to have lessons with her (once an injury is sorted.)
I've also come to accept the fact that I'm always going to be happier cruising down a blue in control, and able to look at the view, compared to scaring myself on something steep.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Hey quirkybird, I have just returned to thread and see everyone disagreeing with my advice to just do the blacks, get down by hook or by crook and just keep doing it until you overcome your fear and carve in style. They are even suggesting you practice on blues.
My advice remains the same. You said you were good skier, so why not skip the blues. Fear is what is holding you back and one way to beat this is repitition, familiarity and experience. You must get used to being outside your comfort zone without freezing. How can doing a blue help you overcome fear of blacks? But abc may well be right and your problem is a serious flaw in your skiing technique you are not aware of so that should be borne in mind.
Of course, you don't have to do blacks but you sound like you want to
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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... --- ...
Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Fri 15-03-13 21:49; edited 1 time in total
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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quirkybird, do you know if you are doing your Pole Plants correctly e.g. they should be helping to initiate the 'twist' of the body to start a new turn? I didn't realise I was doing them wrong until last year, 7 years of skiing with the poles just trailing behind me in the turns had held me back tackling the steeper reds and blacks!!
As above I would recommend a few hours of private tuition and see if this helps; or if your budget can stretch to it how about a sightly longer trip so that you can spend more time in your comfort zone??
As for the Morzine area, bear in mind that most of the black runs are generally ungroomed so are more like skied-out off piste- at least they were on the Les Gets side when I went earlier this year. The red runs off Chamoissere, Ranfolly and Nauchets chairs are all relatively wide and of varying steepness. The run from the top of Nyon is twisty and tight, lower down wider but more likely to be icy, with similar wide but potentially icy runs to/from the Pleney cable cars. Mt Chery on the other side of Les Gets is excellent and very picturesque, particularly the Marmottes run which gives you the steep or less-steep options (right at the first junction, left at the second for the steep route!).
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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patricksh, I agree with everyone who has disagreed with your advice - personally I think your advice is a load of b$llocks 
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| kitenski wrote: |
| patricksh, so if someone was afraid of water and couldn't swim, would your advice be to just dive in at the deep end? |
While not making a comment on patrichksh's advice that's hardly a comparable situation.
| quirkybird wrote: |
I am a good skiier, I know I'm capable of going down any run |
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swiftoid, yeh I just came back to edit it and am too late 
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| swiftoid wrote: |
| kitenski wrote: |
| patricksh, so if someone couldn't swim and was afraid of water, would your advice be to just dive in at the deep end? |
While not making a comment on patrichksh's advice that's hardly a comparable situation. |
I switched the phrases about in kitenski's posting to highlight cause and consequence...
It's not entirely incomparable. If the OP was skiing with faulty technique at the beginning of the holiday, and he/she felt was lacking control on the black piste. The "fear" had a foundation just like the non-swimmer correctly fear WHY he shouldn't dive into the deep end of the pool.
Without correcting the cause of the justifiable fear, pushing on might indeed cause disaster.
More over, fear has a way of interfereing with proper technique. Some tuitiion to deal with fear-induced technical error will be a much quicker way forward.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Fear is a major barrier to progress in skiing and I think little is learned from skiing in situations where you are in survival mode. Without seeing you ski this is difficult but here are some ideas:
1) Most people are afraid of steeper slopes because fundamentally they have bad technique and cannot properly finish their turns to control their speed but the shallower gradients and runouts after short steeper sections mask this. You should be able to ski something even at almost walking pace, if you can control your speed like this steeper slopes hold less fear.
2) Learn good pole planting. Sounds very simple but (parallel) turns in skiing require you to topple over your skis out of balance knowing you skis will catch you (scary!) but a good pole plant means instead of just toppling out of balance into the abyss you have a pole planted there first there just as you do which seems to help no end. Watch any good skier in difficult snow and you will see strong pole plants.
3) Ski steeper things early in the day when the snow is nice and consistent, later there are mounds and hardpack patches meaning you have to compensate on every turn not sure how the skis will behave. Also ski alone for a while and slowly work up staying in your comfort zone rather than be pushed by faster skiing friends. Also remember fast does NOT mean good, loads of skiers ski fast because it is lazy and they have sloppy technique.
4) Get your alignment done on your boots (assuming you got them well fitted in the first place, most people have boots that are far too big which is an even bigger problem!) Increased confidence was one of the first things I noticed once I had this done because I guess suddenly my body was not compensating all the time.
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| abc wrote: |
It's not entirely incomparable. If the OP was skiing with faulty technique at the beginning of the holiday, and he/she felt was lacking control on the black piste. The "fear" had a foundation just like the non-swimmer correctly fear WHY he shouldn't dive into the deep end of the pool.
Without correcting the cause of the justifiable fear, pushing on might indeed cause disaster.
More over, fear has a way of interfereing with proper technique. Some tuitiion to deal with fear-induced technical error will be a much quicker way forward. |
Yes, if the op is skiing with faulty technique then you might be right.
However they said they are a good skier and it appears to be pure supposition on your part to suggest that it is faulty technique that causes the fear. Also they didn't say anything about feeling like they were lacking control. Their snowplough might be perfectly controlled.
Based on the information the OP has given (which is all any of us has to go on) you cannot compare them to someone who cannot swim. Even if your assumption is correct and they don't have great technique they still cannot be compared with someone who cannot swim at all - they CAN ski.
NB -I did point out I wasn't making a comment on whether or not patricksh's advice was correct.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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My advice is based on quirky bird being a good skier, but has a fear complex disproportionate to her ability.
Everyone else assumes she has serious flaws with her skiing. Maybe she does but she said she doesn't
And maybe she is able to finish turns/ pole plant etc on reds but her techniques falls apart on blacks for no good reason but fear
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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patricksh, I'm a reasonably good skier, but I used to be very scared on steep slopes. I don't think continually doing black runs would have helped. In fact I just needed better equipment, but I didn't realise this until I had it!
It sounds to me like quirkybird just needs some confidence-boosting time with an instructor with some pointers on how to conquer the nerves on steeper slopes.
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Piccadilly, yeh, I remember your thread on this a few weeks ago
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You know it makes sense.
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PS can't you tell everyone replying to this thread is over 40 ? (Just waiting for someone to ask what's wrong with that...)
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I apologise for this but I'd like to add a serious post
I am a very nervous skier, but I have skied a lot of very steep scary stuff., I'd like to throw in something that I absolutely swear by and has improved my skiing a lot:
No matter how much you look at something from another angle it will not look nearly as terrifying as when you stand above it, doesn't matter if it is your first red run or a sixty degree chute..
THE FIRST TURN IS ALWAYS THE HARDEST !!!
start before it gets steep/scary count down from 3, and then start, always start when you hit zero (don't think anymore, get into the mind set that at the end of the countdown there is no turning back). Do two/three turns on the easy bit and when it gets harder DO NOT STOP, keep moving, keep your rhythm, don't overthink it and you will be down in no time!
For the majority of us, skiing is a battle with fear and I would hazard the guess that almost all of us who learnt when we were older can remember traversing, not being able to do that next turn and ending up doing the backwards shuffle of shame, keep your rhythm and don't think, keep your second guessing brain out of it and skiing is easy!!!
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Poster: A snowHead
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I am over 40 so feel compelled to reply. I get scared too and interestingly the thread I saw after this was on falling over. Sometimes when I am just too scared I need to fall over to remind myself it isn't that bad.
My husband states to me I can 'turn on a dime' and can't work out why I will all of a sudden get spooked by a run (including ones I have skied competently before). But that is the difference of starting to ski at 11 (him) and 40 (me). I know there are a lot of people who started over 40 but I do think it is more difficult the older you are.
I don't think I will ever be fearless but I am confident that progressively some things will seem less scary. And what I do know is I love the feeling of swooshing down a lovely wide piste with a gradient that I feel comfortable with - its a great feeling.
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Sat 16-03-13 1:08; edited 1 time in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| patricksh wrote: |
My advice is based on quirky bird being a good skier, but has a fear complex disproportionate to her ability.
Everyone else assumes she has serious flaws with her skiing. Maybe she does but she said she doesn't
And maybe she is able to finish turns/ pole plant etc on reds but her techniques falls apart on blacks for no good reason but fear |
My "guess" is based on her (is that a female? I didn't see any mentioning of that) statement that by day 5, the fear was gone and the OP was able to ski and enjoy the black.
If it's a fear complex, it wouldn't just go away by itself. The fact more days on slope cures it is pretty tell tale.
When it's a technique issue, especially for people who don't ski a lot, more days on skis would help improve to the point it's no longer an issue by day 5. The fact most "holiday week" ends at day 6 means there's probably not enough time to consolidate the improvement to carry over to the next year. So the process re-starts again, with no permenent improvement.
Tuition would shorten that period to "get comfortable" with skis, and with steeps. So there's enough of the holiday left for the OP to enjoy, and to consolidate the improvement for next year instead of regressing back to the same as before.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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patricksh, it was actually a long time ago, but the thread was resurrected...
PS- I'm not out of my 30s yet!
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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I am not over 40 - have people I trust telling me I have skills that are well able to cope with situations that I still freeze in... So to some degree am with youpatricksh, ..... Fundamentally believing you can do it is far more important.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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To give a little background colour of where my assumption came from...
I was never afraid of the steep. Even when my technique was rubbish, I'd throw myself down the piste. Lots of side-slip, and a few slides on my bum, nothing injured except my pride.
At least that's what I thought I was, fearless.
That is, until I got myself video taped!!!
It was instantly obvious I was leaning back up the hill when the slope got steeper. And a host of other technical ills that got magnified when the slope got steeper! Many of those technical issues were not obvious at all at easier slopes, partly because I wasn't impeaded by fear and was able to execute them as it should be.
So you see, even though I was "brave" enough to ski down those slopes, my brain and my body subconciously thought otherwise. Inner fear basically magnifies some of the technical flaws and made me a less proficient skier than I really was!
I dare say there's a very big possibility the OP has a similar problem. Fear was interfereing technique at the beginning of the holiday. Time with a good instructor will fix that. All it takes is a few pointers on what to focus on to counter the subconcious fear so technique doesn't suffer as a result. Once technique is improved, the steep slopes would feel perfectly managable and fear will subside.
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I don't doubt that all of us pansies that get spooked could improve our technique - my main coping strategy is learning lots of new ways to approach things. I think some people over-back themselves (and risk ending up out of their depth) whilst others don't really trust their own abilities enough..... As a general rule females tend to be the latter camp rather than the former... I know I def am!
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| katedenhaag wrote: |
| others don't really trust their own abilities enough..... As a general rule females tend to be the latter camp rather than the former... I know I def am! |
A half way decent instructor can easily fix that!
A favorite trick many instructors do to get red skier to progress to black was say "follow me very closely" on a red piste the student is comfortable with. And then, after skiing a bit, points out to the student she's been led into a black piste without realizing it! Now that she's in the middle of it, she need to continue skiing exactly the same way (which she almost never does as well but usually she gets the point).
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Over 20 years ago, after a couple of very stressful trips, I swore I would never ski again - I loved the idea, but hated the reality and, even though I was vaguely competent, dissolved into a gibbering wreck at the top of every slope, even a green. Last year, for very complicated reasons, I found myself off on a skiing holiday again, but feeling physically sick at the mere thought of being on skis.
The difference from 20 years ago was that I could afford some private lessons, which changed everything. I am still a nervous skier, only really interested in blues, but I LOVE skiing now. We went twice last season and are just about to book our second trip this year.
This is what I now advise anyone who asks:
1. Talk to the ski school before you book. Make it clear exactly what your problem is, and that you are looking for a supportive instructor. Lots of the ski schools have English staff in the office, and a chat about it will usually help them decide who would be good for you. Make sure you book with a 'modern' ski school, who treat their customers as individuals - we particularly like Evolution 2, but they are franchised so may not be the same everywhere.
2. Book ski school well ahead, when they can assign you the right instructor. Maybe do a new thread 'names of good instructors for nervous adults' and get more people on the forum to help you ask for someone in particular.
3. If budget is tight, book short lessons. I find that 1.5 hours is enough to set me up for continuing in the same way without the instructor.
4. Book lessons for at least the first three or four days, that way you enjoy it repeatedly and stop getting that nasty feeling in your stomach before going out in the morning.
5. Make sure your first lesson is immediately you arrive, before you have the chance to actually get stressed on the slopes.
6. Ski on your own. This was inadvertent, but my other half was injured first day on the last trip. I would never have skied alone before, but my choice was either to waste my holiday or get on with it. I replayed my lesson in my mind as I skied alone, deliberately skiing the same runs as I'd covered with the instructor. Other half is incredibly supportive when he's with me, but I actually found that being on my own made me feel less pressured, even though that pressure had been in my mind. I think in the future I will ski alone for an hour or so a day, immediately after the lesson.
Hope you have a brilliant holiday!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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quirkybird, Mrs RR suffered exactly the same problem, she would not normally go for 'self help' type books but felt that 'Inner Skiing' by a guy called Timothy Gallwey helped a lot.
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| sj1608 wrote: |
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5. Make sure your first lesson is immediately you arrive, before you have the chance to actually get stressed on the slopes.
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I preferred to ski for a day first, especially if it was the fist week of the season. I wanted the instructor to see me once I had got myself back to my usual sate. Always seem to be a bit clumpy for my season's first runs - but then, I don't snowdome in the summer.
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FAQ
- I've already worked out that is all it would take, therefore I am in a great position to suggest it elsewhere, I didn't say I'd tried only that I am sure that is all it would take. 
