 Poster: A snowHead
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I've found Italian adults to be perfectly pleasant in all my encounters, but honestly cannot abide by the pushing and shoving of their unsupervised infants. Hells Bells has it right that a ski pole or well placed boot is the only way to educate them.
| Zero-G wrote: |
| Chamexpress wrote: |
| @ Zero-G let's hope the Brits aren't going the way of the Russians? |
I don't get the whole anti-Russian thing. Yes, they are loud but I haven't seen them behaving in a way that is annoying. |
Go to Courchevel and see what happens when they try to close a piste / bar / restaurant, or traipse around town drunk with their whores and pimp in tow. I appreciate generalisations are low, and I'm normally quite defensive of Russians in these arguments as I understand their language is much more abrupt than European ones which makes them seem rude when they bark commands at us, but I do not miss them a jot now I've left the Tarentaise.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| albinomountainbadger wrote: |
| drunk with their whores and pimp in tow. |
Really? Whores? Like 'new money' in any nationality, the men and women sometimes tend to dress in a somewhat vulgar manner but to call the Russian women whores is unsavoury. Unless those were verifiable prostitutes who frequented the resorts you were in?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Zero-G, I think the polite term is "neices"
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| Zero-G wrote: |
| albinomountainbadger wrote: |
| drunk with their whores and pimp in tow. |
Really? Whores? Like 'new money' in any nationality, the men and women sometimes tend to dress in a somewhat vulgar manner but to call the Russian women whores is unsavoury. Unless those were verifiable prostitutes who frequented the resorts you were in? |
No I honestly mean whores, as in imported prostitutes. Ask anyone who's worked in an upmarket chalet in Courchevel or Meribel - they often take one chalet fro the men and another for the female company - and some of the scenes described by friends can't be repeated here.
p.s. How might one verify a prostitute?..
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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There we go again..... some Russians behave badly, but not all. some Brits behave badly, but not all. Some French people behave badly......
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| albinomountainbadger wrote: |
| p.s. How might one verify a prostitute?.. |
Well, if she accepts payment for sex... 
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And what they ask of the female chalet staff just reinforces the stereotype. For example a couple of female staff I worked with were offered 200€ each (with the cash waved in their faces) to serve the evening service topless.
Just because its a stereotype does not mean it's not true.
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Dwarf Vader, that happens in the UK - from British men - too (and I dare say plenty of other countries).
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I'm sure it happens everywhere too, but it's so common with the Russians that we now expect it, just as Greeks on the islands expect young Brits to be half-naked throwing up in the street at 6am. Sadly when your only exposure to a nationality is with it's worst elements, you don't form good opinions.
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| eddiethebus wrote: |
| i'd actually say that service in non-french establishments in chamonix is far better than those owned and staffed by local's. |
Based on a very small sample of two bars next door to each (Bar 1 is owned and staffed by Brits and Bar 2 is owned by a Cham local and staffed by a mix of Brits and French), here is my experience of these two bars after repeated visits to both:
Bar 1:
* Frequented by very drunk seasonnaires
* Bar staff spend most of their time behind the bar browsing Facebook on their smartphones (yes, I have seen this)
* Bar staff largely ignore customers who aren't their mates or certainly don't provide them with the same level of attention
Bar 2:
* Frequented by a slightly older crowd (I'm not talking geriatrics but the clientele is at least over the age of 22)
* Bar staff actually work - they move from behind the bar to clear tables, take orders, etc. And behind the bar they're always cleaning, cutting lemons, crushing ice...
* Bar staff are very friendly to everyone and seem to provide the same level of service to infrequent customers as they do to regulars
So you see, my experience is the opposite of yours. That does not mean that either of us can accurately describe the mean across all establishments in town.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| albinomountainbadger wrote: |
| I'm sure it happens everywhere too |
yeah well, you know, that's men for you 
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| Zero-G wrote: |
| eddiethebus wrote: |
| i'd actually say that service in non-french establishments in chamonix is far better than those owned and staffed by local's. |
Based on a very small sample of two bars next door to each (Bar 1 is owned and staffed by Brits and Bar 2 is owned by a Cham local and staffed by a mix of Brits and French), here is my experience of these two bars after repeated visits to both:
Bar 1:
* Frequented by very drunk seasonnaires
* Bar staff spend most of their time behind the bar browsing Facebook on their smartphones (yes, I have seen this)
* Bar staff largely ignore customers who aren't their mates or certainly don't provide them with the same level of attention
Bar 2:
* Frequented by a slightly older crowd (I'm not talking geriatrics but the clientele is at least over the age of 22)
* Bar staff actually work - they move from behind the bar to clear tables, take orders, etc. And behind the bar they're always cleaning, cutting lemons, crushing ice...
* Bar staff are very friendly to everyone and seem to provide the same level of service to infrequent customers as they do to regulars
So you see, my experience is the opposite of yours. That does not mean that either of us can accurately describe the mean across all establishments in town. |
I'll bet a lot of that boils down to pay and recruitment, the very topic of this thread...
Bar 1 is run by a UK outfit that has recruited a load of gap year Rahs with no real interest in working.
Bar 2 is staffed by local French or ex-pats, or repeat season workers on decent contracts who are actually earning their living.
Peanuts = monkeys.
Last edited by So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much  on Thu 21-02-13 17:25; edited 1 time in total
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| albinomountainbadger wrote: |
| Peanuts = monkeys. |
Yes, indeed!
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Zero-G wrote: |
| albinomountainbadger wrote: |
| Peanuts = monkeys. |
Yes, indeed! |
Nope, I accepted peanuts (with open eyes) and you would not call me a monkey and 90% of the guys I worked with I would not call a monkey either.
If your up in arms about nationalities been portrayed as stereotypes don't stereotype seasonaires
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Dwarf Vader wrote: |
| Zero-G wrote: |
| albinomountainbadger wrote: |
| Peanuts = monkeys. |
Yes, indeed! |
Nope, I accepted peanuts (with open eyes) and you would not call me a monkey and 90% of the guys I worked with I would not call a monkey either. |
You're in a minority, sadly, along with the Francophone Russian and the smiley Parisien waiter.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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eddiethebus, Ummm no they don't have right of way unless you're French national team or the liftie knows you They just think they do.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Dwarf Vader wrote: |
| If your up in arms about nationalities been portrayed as stereotypes don't stereotype seasonaires |
Not sure where you got the idea I have something against seasnnaires, I don't. But I do believe that if you pay peanuts you get monkeys (talking generally here, not necessarily about ski towns/resorts).
You and your friends may have been higher-than-average quality workers who were willing to accept peanuts for your labour but if you can't see the value in your skills/labour then that just makes you ripe for exploitation.
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| Dwarf Vader wrote: |
| Zero-G wrote: |
| albinomountainbadger wrote: |
| Peanuts = monkeys. |
Yes, indeed! |
Nope, I accepted peanuts (with open eyes) and you would not call me a monkey and 90% of the guys I worked with I would not call a monkey either.
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we do of course only have your word for that 
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dorsetboy, I don't know which company you're working for, but the one I do some work for have a number of non-Brits among their staff team. So don't be too sure that they couldn't go for local staff!!
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| Zero-G wrote: |
| but if you can't see the value in your skills/labour then that just makes you ripe for exploitation. |
“and being as wicked as any man who ever lived, he exploited his advantage to the full.”
― Winston Churchill
or to put it another way
" I know all about that stuff. I have been exploited all my life. " Elwood Blues
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Quote: |
in a minority, sadly, along with the Francophone Russian
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 maybe you don't know a lot of Russian history. There was a time when loads of French teachers in British secondary schools were Russian - my first French teacher was one, and insisted that we spent the first 6 weeks learning French pronunciation, before we got on to the verb "to be". We had to recite La Cigalle et la fourmi until she was satisfied with our diction, especially the rrrrrs and the other sounds not found in English. I remember a girl called Jean, who never distinguished herself in any other fashion, but who could do her French "r" so well she was constantly called upon to demonstrate. Even these days I think quite a few Russians speak French.
As for peanuts = monkeys, I think that's generally true but as I've pointed out before, some very young and not very skilled or qualified Brits are remunerated sufficiently to keep themselves and spend several hours, most days, on a very expensive recreational pastime AND get drunk several times a week. I don't call that peanuts - or exploitation, for that matter. Zero-G has costed out her season but that's not really the equivalent - she no doubt had to work some time to save enough to pay for all that. Seasonal workers can do all that and might, if they are slightly careful, even end up with more money than they started with (my son certainly did, but then he was paid a good salary, on top of his keep).
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pam w, speaking to my son's friends and other seasonaires in SC, many of them are subsidised by money from parents or savings and come home penniless. £60 (which is what some of them earned) wouldn't cover one night's bar bill in some resorts.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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pam w, if memory serves, your son is a trained chef who worked in a higher class chalet, so it's expected that he was paid appropriately for his skills. I don't know many seasonnaires so can't comment on how much they are or aren't able to save but the general impression (gleaned purely from this site, so it could be entirely wrong) is that they struggle. Of the few seasonnaires I know (six in total), they say they were are not able to save money from their wages and had to use savings or the bank of mom & dad to supplement their seasonnaire lifestyles.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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As I said, my son did earn a lot because he had relevant skill and experience. But £60 pure "spending money" a week, with your accommodation, food, skis and ski pass all paid for, still makes you a pretty comfortable dude compared, for example, to someone the same age working delivering groceries in Tesco and having to pay for their own accommodation. Some parents may be extra generous, but no way would I subsidize an offspring who had £60 a week to spend pretty much on booze. When my kids went skiing they used to stock up at the beginning of the week with Old Lady gin etc from the supermarket - they managed to get drunk pretty often without having to spend a fortune.
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Hells Bells, seasonnaires don't pay punter prices in bars. £60 on booze at seasonnaire's prices would get you in hospital!
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You know it makes sense.
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| pam w wrote: |
| As I said, my son did earn a lot because he had relevant skill and experience. But £60 pure "spending money" a week, with your accommodation, food, skis and ski pass all paid for, still makes you a pretty comfortable dude compared, for example, to someone the same age working delivering groceries in Tesco and having to pay for their own accommodation. |
But a lot less comfortable than the dude working in Spar in resort, who gets plenty of skiing, cheap season pass, discounted food and likely not living in a windowless basement.
I don't understand the 'it's ok to pay them nothing 'cos they can ski in their free time' thing. Should people who live in Scotland (pretty much any part) get paid less because they have awesome hiking/biking/climbing/kayaking all around them?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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clarky999, I'm not saying it's OK to pay them nothing, I AM saying that although the French courts don't take it into account, the fact that they get all their living essentials, plus skis, passes etc is in fact a pretty valuable part of their remuneration. I know a dude working in Spar in resort - she lives in the resort year round, she works all day (long shop hours, and the time off for lunch isn't a huge lot of use) and once she's home at night she cooks supper for the family. Like the folk who work in Tesco or Asda here in the UK she doesn't have much spare time for "leisure activities" or the money to pursue expensive ones. No youngster working stacking shelves in Tesco could afford many hours a week of an expensive leisure activities for many hours a week, pay for their accommodation and food AND have £60 a week pocket money to spend on booze.
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Poster: A snowHead
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pam w, supporting a family is probably the reason she has little time/money for hobbies! A single person with no dependents will have a lot more free cash (plenty enough, IME, to do fun stuff in time off, unless it's all squandered on booze). Skiing is only expensive when you have to travel a long way for it, but I have many friends in the UK working minimum wage low responsibility jobs precisely because it enables them to get out and do lots of cool stuff, or live in fun places (Aviemore, North Wales, etc - living independantly/not with parents btw). Even working fulltime leaves two full days (or one full day and two half days) a week to ski, and unless you feel the need for a car, lots of toys and nice accomm, it's also perfectly possible to get by working only 20-30 hours a week, so an extra day for skiing, and still be better off than most chalet hosts.
I'm not saying TO's shouldn't deduct costs from their staff for accomm and so on, but they MASSIVELY inflate them, and I'm fairly sure you won't find many of their staff being allowed to claim that money back as they found their own accomm instead, as it will cost the TO a lot more!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| pam w wrote: |
| I AM saying that although the French courts don't take it into account |
French legislation does allow for accommodation and food but probably not lift passes for a ski guide as that would be part of the job wouldn't it?
For example for food (on the old 2012 figures)
| Quote: |
3,44 € x nombres de jours de travail x 2 repas
Un salarié travaillant 5 jours par semaine et présent 22 jours par mois et a droit à 44 repas, soit : 3,44 € x 44 repas = 151,36 € |
There are ways round the Smic, for example employ people as "stagieres", even qualified lawyer will often do their first year or so as a "stage", which makes becoming a lawyer in France the preserve of kids with rich parents.
Some French season workers live in special accommodation but if you want to see where a lot of them live go to somewhere like la Daille in Val d'Isere. All those ropey old barely roadworthy camper vans in the car park there are where they live during the winter... and summer when they are on the south coast. You want heating? Get a dog to sleep with.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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davidof, there's an encampment of French seasonnaires in Monetier every winter . One camper van is so old it has a woodburning stove.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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pam w, history aside, during seasons in the alps and south of France dealing with LOTS of wealthy Russians, I've only met one who speaks French.
davidof, the majority of people living in those vans don't work, at least not seriously. They are the French equivalent of perhaps our trustafarians, people who have made a lifestyle choice to live in a van and wear hippy clothes. The French word for them is toffeurs, the verlans for fêteurs, which says it all.
Also your figures on food, what are you quoting there, I don't recognise it?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I suspect that the image of the comfortably-housed supermarket worker with plenty of time and money for skiing and boozing is a bit optimistic. A rusty camper van with a dog sounds more like it.
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| albinomountainbadger wrote: |
pam w, history aside, during seasons in the alps and south of France dealing with LOTS of wealthy Russians, I've only met one who speaks French.
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I know 6 Russians who have second homes down here in South of France in 2 families ... 4 of them speak reasonable French, 1 is fluent. Oh that the % of Brit ex-pats were even half of that.
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| albinomountainbadger wrote: |
Also your figures on food, what are you quoting there, I don't recognise it? |
The figures are the allowances you can make for providing food to your employees.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| albinomountainbadger wrote: |
davidof, the majority of people living in those vans don't work, at least not seriously. They are the French equivalent of perhaps our trustafarians, people who have made a lifestyle choice to live in a van and wear hippy clothes. The French word for them is toffeurs, the verlans for fêteurs, which says it all.
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I suggest you go and share your thoughts with the Trusafarians then. I'm sure the friends of Thomas who worked the winter as a perchman on the ski lifts of la Clusaz would be interested
http://www.ledauphine.com/haute-savoie/2013/01/03/la-clusaz-deux-saisonniers-perissent-carbonises-dans-l-incendie-de-leur-camion
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davidof, how dreadful.
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FAQ
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