 Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Assuming we are talking injured not life threatening, I'd expect them to call the piste rescue and stay till pisteurs arrive. If I didn't have a mate in the group I'd expect them to help me try and fetch one to meet me somewhere (phone friend etc) and stay with me and provide a bit of moral support/translation until I have been carted off the hill OR see if anyone else in the group would volunteer to do so. If I am conscious and the group kicked off about their day being interrupted I'd probably expect to be left once pisteurs arrived though - no friends on a powder day and all that. I'd expect them to remind me about insurance and to phone any friends I'm staying with, and offer to do the latter for me with my phone if I'm a bit too fraught to do so. I'd expect them to make sure the hotel rep/chalet staff and resort manager are informed so if any of my party or I ran into any reps/managers I'd expect them to know about my accident and ask if I'm ok. I wouldn't expect the original rep to check in on me pro-actively to be honest, but I would expect them to remember what happened and ask how I'm doing if they see me again. I'd imagine the resort manager would send SOME rep (maybe not the same one) to check-in with my party sometime in the evening to see how we are, probably during/just after dinner, but perhaps not if in self catering.
It depends what you did though, some things (sprains, simple breaks, twists etc) are pretty normal and not life threatening, I wouldn't expect the rep to think of me much once out of sight bar telling resort manager there was a problem. If I was talking-in-tongues, bleeding all over the snow and passing out last time they say me, I'd expect them to be a bit more assertive in tracking me down and making sure I am on the road to recovery.
aj xx
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Quote: |
until they appear in the hotel lounge with their crutches 8 hours later?
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8 hours!!! 
No wonder the OP felt he's been neglected (if not by the "leader" at least by the medical personnel?).
Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Tue 29-01-13 1:04; edited 1 time in total
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| On the rocks wrote: |
| Hopalong, If the leader/rep did everything necessary to put you in the safe hands of the medical services then surely job done? |
No, job not done. From what the OP says it sounds like a tour operator host/rep. The OP was a guest and should have been treated like a guest. Even if the injured person doesn't need any help, it's the simple act of asking and showing some concern that might make them feel better about the situation. Of course, chances are, they will need some kind of assistance and the rep should help - most do.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Hopalong, How did you get back to your accom?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Ibex wrote: |
| Hopalong, How did you get back to your accom? |
ChamExpress
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Masque, 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Masque,
Hopalong, why don't you tell us what happened (without naming the tour op)?. What did you injure, are you OK? Is that you out for the rest of the week? If so, I'm sorry to hear that and I wish you a speedy recovery.
After the accident I would expect the ski host to make sure you're being looked after by the ski patrol, and make sure your family has been contacted, then for them to look after the rest of the group.
I'm not really sure I'd expect much after that. If he/she saw you in the hotel bar later, I'd expect him/her to come straight over and ask after you - but until you return from the medical centre and appear in the hotel bar/lounge, how would they even know where you were?
I also think a lot depends on the severity of the accident.
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Missing for 8 hours should be a red flag for any resort rep/manager . . . this appears to be very shoddy on the surface so the story needs to be told.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Some secret filming would have helped us.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Hopalong, welcome.
I think we are all (or most of us anyway) are missing the clue in this post. The rep/leader is the same person for this group and is sharing the leading of the group with a ski instructor.
'One group has a ski instructor while the other group is lead around by the leader and then they switch roles'.
Unless I am much mistaken, the only company that does this is 'Fresh Tracks holidays' or in other words the business side of the SCGB.
They do not have resort managers or any other staff out with there groups normally, just a 'ski club leader' who also forfills the role of the Holiday Rep for the group. They (the leader/rep) are expected to do everything for the group both 'on the snow' and 'off the snow'. When there is a problem they should inform the London office and if necessary get instructions. If necessary support is given at a distance to the 'leader/rep' from London or they might send someone out from the UK if it is serious enough.
Unless the terms and conditions for the Leader/Rep have changed in recent years, they are expected to follow up after an accident and make sure everything is ok with the guest after the 'Leader/Rep returns at the end of skiing. While on the mountain as mentioned earlier, once they have handed over the injured person to the pisteurs they could if needed arrange for someone to go with the person, but it would need to be serious for that. Otherwise when they return from the day out, they should follow up what has happened with the guest and make sure all is ok re Insurance etc. These instructions are written in their 'Leaders/Reps handbook manual'.
If the person just went in the bar for apre ski when they returned from the days skiing and did nothing to help you then they have not followed there own guide lines for the 'duty of care' they have for each member of the group. If this was the case then you should complain to the Head office. They have a Holidays Manager/Director.
Hope that helps and good luck.
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snowcrazy, I did think that from the wording of the OP's first two posts . . . but we'll see. There will be much wailing and gnashing of teeth if it is 
Dam bad show, wot!
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You know it makes sense.
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Hopalong, would expect different treatment depending on the injury. Head/chest/spine trauma - would expect a much higher level of involvement/contact from the rep/leader. Injured limb? If they get me on a stretcher they should go and look after the rest of the group. A ski rep phoning a hospital isn't going to help a broken leg. Sure, it would be nice, but I wouldn't see how it might benefit?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Bode Swiller wrote: |
| From what the OP says it sounds like a tour operator host/rep. |
Actually, it sounds like the Ski Club. The OP said "Ski leader" not ski host or ski rep which is what most companies call them. (I could be wrong.)
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Poster: A snowHead
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I've twice had guest stretchered off while instructing, one twisting a knee in a pile of slush, another twisting a knee coming off the top of a drag. After making them/the rest of the group safe (skis crossed uphill of them, jacket over them to keep warm, etc), I called the rescue services, who came and took them off the mountain - their responsibility from that point, until arriving at the doctors. Meanwhile I skied down with the group, carrying their equipment, which I stored in a safe place for the rest of the day. After finishing the lesson, I called the 'victim' (I always take contact number and accommodation details) to make sure they were ok and find out what was going on, then arranged to come and drop their skis off at their accomm. I would expect a rep to do at least that much, probably not much more though.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| maggi wrote: |
| Bode Swiller wrote: |
| From what the OP says it sounds like a tour operator host/rep. |
Actually, it sounds like the Ski Club. The OP said "Ski leader" not ski host or ski rep which is what most companies call them. (I could be wrong.) |
Yeah, maybe. These lines made me think it was a tour op rather than a club (but, there again, SCGB is also a tour op I guess):
| Quote: |
And the reason I wanted other peoples' perspective on this is because I do not want to complain to the company concerned only to be told that I should take my mother with me next time!
Thanks very much to everyone who replied. There's no benefit to anyone in naming the tour operator and I don't want to be sued. I'm not being coyly evasive and it would be a poor show if I claimed a company's rep had been over-casual if in fact such behaviour is entirely normal. |
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Hopalong wrote: |
| I wouldn't expect a leader to jettison her / his duty to the other group members for the rest of the time... |
Which means the leader concerned was a "her" otherwise people always say his/her. Typical eh?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Hopalong, the days of me using a TO are thankfully long gone. My experience of company reps are I'm afraid littered with tales such as yours. Don't get me wrong they aren't all bad but my expectations of them were and still would be very low. However, I suppose you have to bear in mind I was buying mainstream. I suspect many of the high end TO's are much better, though I've still seen a good few disatisfied customers on here. Which end of the market were you buying in?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Bode Swiller wrote: |
| Hopalong wrote: |
| I wouldn't expect a leader to jettison her / his duty to the other group members for the rest of the time... |
Which means the leader concerned was a "her" otherwise people always say his/her. Typical eh? |
could be a feminist? Thinking one gender deserves to come first?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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I've been around a couple of occurences of this nature and once the victim was with the local help the rep kept on with their charges (victims friends took their kit down for one and the piste rescue the other) but at the end of the 'shift' the reps were straight down to the med centre to check on the guest. In this case it appears the guest was just abandoned . . . and that is beyond bad form it's downright bloody insulting and if it is a ScGB 'Leader' then another reason to have nowt to do with the club.
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| Masque wrote: |
| I've been around a couple of occurences of this nature and once the victim was with the local help the rep kept on with their charges (victims friends took their kit down for one and the piste rescue the other) but at the end of the 'shift' the reps were straight down to the med centre to check on the guest. In this case it appears the guest was just abandoned . . . and that is beyond bad form it's downright bloody insulting and if it is a ScGB 'Leader' then another reason to have nowt to do with the club. |
That's what I would expect a decent rep/leader/whatever-you-call-them would do.
But that's not to say they have a "duty" to do so. The latter would depends on the exact contract term between the guest with the operator and the contract between the rep/leader with the operation that hire them.
| Thornyhill wrote: |
| A ski rep phoning a hospital isn't going to help a broken leg. Sure, it would be nice, but I wouldn't see how it might benefit? |
Depends.
If the guest gone missing for 8 hours since being stretchered off the mountain, it could potentially be a problem. A quick phone call to the hospital might have the benefit of clearing something up. Or, if the guest has other complication not known while on the mountain, the changed status might warrant contacting their family back home, etc... Again, a phone call to the hospital would be benefitial, even for a broken leg.
Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Tue 29-01-13 1:00; edited 1 time in total
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abc, there are basic manners inherent in every situation that have nothing to do with 'duty' of care or otherwise. . . the leader/rep whatever appears to have behaved disgracefully.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Thornyhill wrote: |
| Bode Swiller wrote: |
| Hopalong wrote: |
| I wouldn't expect a leader to jettison her / his duty to the other group members for the rest of the time... |
Which means the leader concerned was a "her" otherwise people always say his/her. Typical eh? |
could be a feminist? Thinking one gender deserves to come first? |
Nope, he typed her (because the leader was a her), and then thought "I'd better anonomise it by also putting / his ", otherwise people ALWAYS write his/her - always.
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| Masque wrote: |
| abc, there are basic manners inherent in every situation that have nothing to do with 'duty' of care or otherwise. . . |
That's a different question.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Most people, even if they weren't the rep/leader/host/whatever and just one of the skiing group, would still be interested to go see if their other group member was OK and needed any help. Most of us would, yeah?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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abc, I'd argue that someone with a lack of basic concern or manners is not suited to the responsibilities of shepherding anyone around a mountain or representing an organisation . . . though at this point the tale is only half told . . . so caveats apply.
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| Bode Swiller wrote: |
| Most people, even if they weren't the rep/leader/host/whatever and just one of the skiing group, would still be interested to go see if their other group member was OK and needed any help. Most of us would, yeah? |
Most of us would.
So why none of the mate of the OP bothered to check on him is also a question that I'd rather not speculate on...
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You know it makes sense.
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The OP is SimonXXXX and I claim my Free Bus Pass
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Masque wrote: |
| The OP is SimonXXXX and I claim my Free Bus Pass |
make sure you get a booking reference
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Poster: A snowHead
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So, in a nutshell, a possibly double-bluffing, maybe feminist, probably not troll provokes often indignant, sometimes self-righteous, mostly bored snowheads to definitely condemn but sometimes explain away the decisions or the non actions of a tour operator ambassador or perhaps a SCGB leader.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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moffatross, yep, you got it in 23.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Masque,
Good way to divert the flak
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Hopalong, I am sorry that you have been injured I hope it isn't too serious?
It sounds like you are travelling alone from what you have said? Are you travelling wit a TO which is geared up for single travellers (I get the impression from posts on here some are setup like that?), yes I would expect more from them in terms of checking up on you once they are off the mountain etc than I would if ski hosting with a different TO for example. Luckily I was able to convince hubby to give skiing another go when we weren't long married (after a bad experience on a school trip) so I have always skied with him or my family.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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To be fair we are lacking in information. For all we know the 'Leader' might not have known which clinic or hospital the injured party had ended up at and even if the did they would have had no right to information about the patient, well that's unless they were Australian radio presenters.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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It's interesting to go back to the three posts by the OP and re-read carefully. OP doesn't say what the injuries were nor that OP ever went to hospital, or if he did, whether he was detained there. I have been in position as a rep when an injury has occurred. Clearly not serious, but casualty has been stretchered off. It's a precaution.
I would be interested to know what info the rep / leader was given. The rep / leader has a responsibility to the group as a whole (as the OP acknowledges) and once the casualty has been handed over then I can easily see circumstances in which the rep / leader would stay with the group.
Yes, I would expect enquiries to be made later but those would again depend on the circumstances. If the rep / leader was told that the casualty would be taken to a doctor in town 'A' then I can easily foresee casualty being delayed there and then going for a precautionary X-Ray in town 'B'.
This can take time. If the accident occurred at 10.00am then casualty would have returned 8 hours later by 6.00pm. We simply don't have enough information to criticise the rep / leader who may have tried to trace where the casualty had been taken and received reassurance that he was OK and about to be put into a taxi to return to the hotel.
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8 really hours doesn't seem that long to me, assuming a standard sprain type thing, and that I am not on holiday alone. Accident at 10-11am, first time I'd expect them to check in is around 8pm (dinner service, when they know where I'll be). Perhaps I'm just used to uk a&e but it would never occur to me to try and ring someone in the med centre, or even try and drop in on them - I'd assume it would be near impossible to find them 
If alone, I guess I'd expect the resort manager to send someone down to the medcentre in good time before closing to see if I needed anything. Were you alone Hopalong?
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Somebody grab the handles and ski it away, before we all go mad This thread should be stretchered off.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Comedy Goldsmith, but it'll only be back 8 hours later.
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| Hopalong wrote: |
And the reason I wanted other peoples' perspective on this is because I do not want to complain to the company concerned only to be told that I should take my mother with me next time! |
It seems like a good idea, if you want your hand holding in such fashion. I take the view I am a grown up and would *hate* to have some spotty teenager fussing over me.
| Quote: |
| There's no benefit to anyone in naming the tour operator |
Doesn't sound like SCGB to me...
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