Yes, it's just a particular way of visualising a movement you are trying to make at the start of a turn.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
miranda, yes, that's it exactly, but the terrain there isn't steep and his progress down the hill is pretty swift and he's not having to check speed much. For most of us, getting safely down steeper slopes (whatever is steep for us personally) means going a lot slower, the commitment has to be that much more defined, and the turn much more "complete". When I did this in a lesson, prior to heading down the steep black we practised that sort of turn but much shorter - at least twice the rhythm of that video.
When I was struggling with it, on the slope, he told me to do each turn completely separately - come to a halt between each.
The commitment (and bottle) required to "dive down the hill" (or however you put it to yourself) and whip the skis round becomes steadily greater as the slope gets steeper.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Yep as pam w, says it is certainly a confidence thing when you come to the (personally defined) steep and/or deep but it also a huge confidence booster however steep it is knowing that if you've got your head over or outside the downhill ski then stand hard on the uphill ski you will be facing the other way in no time with no great drama (well if you do it right and don't trip over your own skis and faceplant into the deep!)!
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
I don't really like the expression dive down the hill. To me it feels more like embracing gravity and that is achieved by making positive movements down the slope. I can't tell you what those movements are exactly but it comes from experience, instruction and practice. Confidence also helps but IME you really need all of those other elements to learn to ski well.
Pedantica, I've just followed that link and watched a few of those videos too, they do seem very good, the chap in his orange jacket seems lovely, I wonder who he is? I bet someone on here will know.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
pam w, You mentioned getting a lesson on a steep black run, I begin to wonder if I will ever feel ready for that sort of thing. I think its got everything to do with 'bottle' as you so astutely put it.
I suspect I have enough skills to get down a black (or steeper than I've skied so far - if we want to remove any colour bias) in decent snow safely (in fact I have tried a couple sections that were def. in that bracket and marked black), but it has a great deal with wanting or being happy to try doing so. I wonder when that will kick in? Whether it will be down to time on the snow or a greater skills set, so far I've found that I've made progress with the former followed by the latter, but that is always the reverse of what we are told should happen.
After all it is free
After all it is free
Quote:
I think its got everything to do with 'bottle'
but not just bottle. I've skied enormously more than you have - I ski almost as much most winters (not this one ) as you've done in your life so far, and I've had a great many very high quality lessons. Progress has been slow, but steady. I have, I hope, not yet reached my zenith.... I plan to improve my skills steadily in order to compensate for advancing age but am under no illusions. I started at 40, which is too late for most of us ever to get really good.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
pam w wrote:
I started at 40, which is too late for most of us ever to get really good.
Pthsssssp it's down to commitment to risk.
Last edited by You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net. on Fri 25-01-13 15:18; edited 1 time in total
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Masque, there are always the sainted exceptions, bien sure
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
pam w, I will forever be 'mostly harmless incompetent knob' . . . but if we pre-define our limits we will always live down to them.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Megamum, I'm not a ski instructor so I don't have any idea when is a good time to tackle a black. But as a learner, I found some of the movements much easier to pick up in steeper terrain. For example, I find it hard to "feel" the fine edge movement of the ski on shallow slopes. It's all too subtle. Once on steep slope, right and wrong becomes rather obvious!
There's a fine line (and a personal one) between what's steep enough to feel the difference easily, vs so steep it frightens you too much to be able to feel anything at all.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Megamum, a couple of decades ago, as a novice skier, I remember an instructor suggesting the group bypass some crowds on a green slope by ducking under the top of a chair lift and paralleling the green track which ran above. It was a longish, slightly bumpy traverse, but it beat the crowds and seemed sensible. When we rejoined the green run, the instructor said "congratulations you've skied your first black slope". I thought it was an excellent ploy, because it demonstrated that there is nothing inherently scary about a black slope. I daresay most members of the group would have been happy to turn around and repeat the exercise until they'd got to the bottom of the black.
I genuinely don't take any notice at all of the colour of a slope now - literally, it doesn't register - and I doubt that I'm any more of a 'natural' than you and have certainly had the odd bout of anxiety on the way. So I think the technique and the practice will get you there!
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Megamum wrote:
pam w, You mentioned getting a lesson on a steep black run, I begin to wonder if I will ever feel ready for that sort of thing. I think its got everything to do with 'bottle' as you so astutely put it.
I suspect I have enough skills to get down a black (or steeper than I've skied so far - if we want to remove any colour bias) in decent snow safely (in fact I have tried a couple sections that were def. in that bracket and marked black), but it has a great deal with wanting or being happy to try doing so. I wonder when that will kick in? Whether it will be down to time on the snow or a greater skills set, so far I've found that I've made progress with the former followed by the latter, but that is always the reverse of what we are told should happen.
When this sort of dive down the hill clicked for me was when Charlotte took pity on us and diverted us off the horrible green track that is le chemin des Demoiselles back down to the village onto a pretty bumpy and solid under ski Valentin black with the advice to use all the skills she had been teaching us or it could go rather pear shaped! And as I said it seems way easier to do on the steeper stuff, maybe just because you are working on it so hard to keep your mind off the angle of the slope!
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
davkt, yes, I think once you have a reasonable package of skills, that's often a good way - and Charlotte would have been the judge of whether your skills were up to it. It's a bit like sailing; you can get away with very sloppy sailing in a nice stable yacht - or for that matter, a nice stable dinghy, but try it in something more skittish and every mistake will have you in the water.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Quote:
if we pre-define our limits we will always live down to them
I'm not pre-defining my limits (if I'd not been injured I'd be doing Charlotte's off ski course just now, and probably making a reasonable fist of it, in between the headplants) but it is also the case that having unrealistic objectives condemns you to a life of dissatisfaction. I don't lightly decide that age is a barrier (or I wouldn't be doing an off piste course at 65) but to deny that ageing has an impact is just cussed.
I have not yet reached the point at which my increasing skills going up meet my ageing body coming down..... where there's life there's hope.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
pam w wrote:
The commitment (and bottle) required to "dive down the hill" (or however you put it to yourself) and whip the skis round becomes steadily greater as the slope gets steeper.
I've discovered this week that this isn't true for me - I'm usually confident enough to dive down fairly steep slopes, and then just a little steeper I lose it entirely - suddenly and not at all gradually.
Also, I've developed my own trick that seems (from my naive point of view) to be related - and I've no idea if it produces the "right" movement or not, but when I feel I don't have enough control I imagine I've got a magic hand that can push my outside ski further into the snow by pushing down towards it. It seems to push my balance in the right direction, it's easy to remember, and it's not as scary as the idea of leaning down the hill.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
pam w, I don't want to derail the tread . . . but I wasn't talking about you specifically just the general attitude that age should define our abilities . . . I disagree strongly.
pam_w, Yep, I certainly trust Charlotte's judgement! As you say once you've got the foundations sorted at least for most of the time the slope is exactly as steep as you want it to be and only as steep as geography says as you go through the fall line in the turn.
Sailing, well I'm actually far happier on an out and out ocean racer that actually responds to the helm when you move it and you aim to have fully powered up to just below being overpowered all the time than some lump of a stable cruiser that wallows along and slowly and safely thinks about what you ask of it in case you really didn't mean to do it!
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Fri 25-01-13 15:46; edited 2 times in total
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Quote:
an out and out ocean racer
you have to do something pretty stupid in one of those to end up in the water too I was thinking about dinghies, really.
you have to do something pretty stupid in one of those to end up in the water too I was thinking about dinghies, really.
Yup but can loose a race in a few seconds of getting it a bit wrong
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
I got back into dinghy sailing a bit at the end of last season - just pottering, though I might race at the back of the fleet next season. I was sailing an RS Feva which is really a kid's boat, but it still dumped me in the water several times when the breeze got up and left me feeling I didn't have enough hands. The instructor wouldn't let me hold the mainsheet in my teeth.
After all it is free
After all it is free
Ahh yes reading the wind so you know when the gust is going to land in your sails! Once you've remembered that the duckings go down! Oh and despite being a kids boat Feva's aren't the most stable of things!
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
Megamum,
Picture yourself standing on the back of a flatbed truck with your ski gear on (including skis). As the trucks sets off you will need to get / stay forward otherwise you fall over backwards. As it goes round a corner you will need to keep forward and inside the turn otherwise you will get spun out. Skiing is similar.
You will probably not get too many turns in on the truck before getting locked up but it's worth a try
When doing short turns down the fall line on steep terrain correctly it feels like you are just letting your body fall directly down the fall line face first with your legs and lower body going like the clappers underneath. Getting your pole plant down the hill helps.
Also, I've developed my own trick that seems (from my naive point of view) to be related - and I've no idea if it produces the "right" movement or not, but when I feel I don't have enough control I imagine I've got a magic hand that can push my outside ski further into the snow by pushing down towards it. It seems to push my balance in the right direction, it's easy to remember, and it's not as scary as the idea of leaning down the hill.
This ^^^ pretty much, and in someone's own words...
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
laundryman, I would like to also get to that stage. Perhaps a wide black piste, a lack of awareness of where I am on the mountain relative to a colour marked piste map and a low vis day when I can't see the pole colour are what are needed This is what happened when I was first taken over the other side of the hill from VT by someone who knew what was over there. I was taken down the col de la chambre from the top - the cloudy mist vis was about 8-10 yards. I was told 'it's a fair slope, so take it easy' (yeah! like I've got any other option as I can't see it). At the bottom I was told - 'it's a damn good job you couldn't see what you were skiing down', I went back in the sunshine and discovered, that they were correct!! However, by then I knew I could get down it
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
pam w wrote:
I have not yet reached the point at which my increasing skills going up meet my ageing body coming down..... where there's life there's hope.
Pam W - love love love this! So true. I'm sure it'll happen eventually, but in solid middle age, my skiing only gets better and better and I love it more and more. Last week I saw a lady who must be in her 70s gliding extremely elegantly down an open piste ... I only hope I am so lucky (to still be skiing at 70 and to attain that level of grace at any time!)
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
laundryman wrote:
Megamum, a couple of decades ago, as a novice skier, I remember an instructor suggesting the group bypass some crowds on a green slope by ducking under the top of a chair lift and paralleling the green track which ran above. It was a longish, slightly bumpy traverse, but it beat the crowds and seemed sensible. When we rejoined the green run, the instructor said "congratulations you've skied your first black slope". I thought it was an excellent ploy, because it demonstrated that there is nothing inherently scary about a black slope. I daresay most members of the group would have been happy to turn around and repeat the exercise until they'd got to the bottom of the black.
I genuinely don't take any notice at all of the colour of a slope now - literally, it doesn't register - and I doubt that I'm any more of a 'natural' than you and have certainly had the odd bout of anxiety on the way. So I think the technique and the practice will get you there!
Laundryman - similar experience (last year on my birthday, no less). I was blindly following the instructor (I ski with her often and trust her implicitly) up and down and all around, and at some point we made it down a rather steep bit which I managed perfectly as well as any other bit when she congratulated me on my first black! Nice birthday present, I must say, but when we did it again, and I knew the color, I didn't ski it half as well. It's really 50% technique and 50% confidence.
Megamum - I'm also working a lot on "diving" on steep slopes ... so far, when I manage to do it (and not panic and jerk my skis around just to make the turn and/or get back on my heels because that's the "logical" think to do when you're on a steep fall line), my feet always catch up with my torso lickety-split, and I've never fallen forward on my face - more often sideways when my skis skid out from under me or the uphill ski goes off one way and the downhill ski another - all because I neglect to shift weight early on in the turn or don't "dive". I've spent so much emotional energy conquering my fear of the fall line that now I seem to linger there too long!
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Practise steeps on moguls, each one is a mini-hill, enough for one steep turn. Do one turn at a time, so start from standing still or just a little traverse speed, then reach down and do a solid pole plant, turn around the pole, but remember to keep driving both hands forward down the hill, so don't leave the pole planting hand behind. When it's really steep you can place weight on the planted pole, a third point of contact with the mountain (the other 2 being your skis hopefully). The feeling of projecting / diving your body down the mountain is what makes steeps fun and do-able.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Just back from a week's skiing and I spent a LOT of time working on this with my instructor (and I still haven't properly cracked it!).
I find it a hard work to get right, especially on steep slopes (I honestly cannot remember how many times we went up and down the same steep black trying to get this nailed) - but, when you get it right it feels great, and as pam w says it gives you loads of control on steep pitches.
I'd also agree with pam w about how important the flex vs. extension thing, and not being too static. As one instructor once said "you need to be a bender before you can be an extender".
... oh, and a decent sturdy pole plant seems to help me.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
abj wrote:
As one instructor once said "you need to be a bender before you can be an extender".
Yup, impossible to extend if you are already er...fully extended... Also good to do it all with the right joints in the right order too.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
I can only say what "dive down the hill" means to me. If it's not steep, I like to carve but, where it's steep and I want to keep the speed down, I'll do convention parallel turns. Extend, turn the skis, sink. When I started on steeper slopes I found that I wasn't turning far and was just pointing down the hill, gathering speed and heading for the trees, rocks or people at the edge of the piste. I thought about this and realised what was happening. I'm going acrooss the piste, my body is vertical(ish) and the skis are horizontal(ish). I extend upwards, still vertical and try to turn the still horizontal skis. Of course, I'm just pushing the tails into the slope and the skis don't want to come round. So, what I do now is to lean out down the hill, just as I'm starting to extend. As my body gets perpendicular to the slope and my skis get in the same plane as the slope, I'm turning them and they whistle round to catch me. That lean down the hill feels like diving down the hill when you first try it! You could have the same effect by planting your pole way down the hill but I prefer to judge being perpendicular to the slope rather than where to plant the pole to make me perpendiculr to the slope.
Works for me!
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
For what it's worth I think the Warren Smith vid on tail lifting is worthwile - that's a very valid technique, especially in really soft snow, and really useful in couloirs. Problem is that it knackers you if you have to do it all the time.
I may have said this before, but all pistes are the same colour.
White !
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
This is kind of following on from what jimmer said earlier in the thread. You don't have to explicitly dive down the slope, because that is what your body is doing anyway, unless you prevent it. So what you need to do is to remove whatever it is which is preventing your body from continuing its downhill trajectory - namely the support of the downhill ski. If you flex your downhill leg and tip the downhill ski to the outside (little toe) edge, your body will cross over the skis without you having to deliberately dive as such, and you will end up carving on the opposite set of edges, which is where you want to be. The more sharply you want to turn, the quicker you flex - maybe even collapse - that support leg. Meanwhile you extend the new stance leg to maintain contact with the snow.
This is the essence of the flexion turns which jimmer mentioned. To change direction on skis, you have to 'release' the edge of the downhill ski, meaning get the weight off it get the skis on to their opposite edges. There are two basic (and somewhat opposing) ways to do this unweighting. One is to extend, rise up, at the end of turns, which is what is normally taught in ski schools and is what ski instructors are trying to get you to do when they say 'hup'. The other is to release by flexing, removing the support of the downhill ski. This is more normally taught to racers, but there's no reason it can't apply to recreational skiers too. From the photo of jimmer, it looks like that's what he's doing, so his body is already downhill of the skis and he's carving the top of the turn.
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
) as you've done in your life so far, and I've had a great many very high quality lessons. Progress has been slow, but steady. I have, I hope, not yet reached my zenith.... 
I plan to improve my skills steadily in order to compensate for advancing age but am under no illusions. I started at 40, which is too late for most of us ever to get really good.
it's down to commitment to risk.
